Hypothesis on Cyclop Ball Skidding

[kollegedave]

I recently bought a set of Cyclop balls. Before a few nights ago, I had played with them only twice and they had been through the diamond polisher after each session. I had noticed no skidding WHATSOEVER though about 5 hours of play. At this point, my entire use of the balls was on an old 9 ft. A.E. Schmidt with no ball return.

However, a week ago I began a cheap gambling session with a player that I am evenly matched with. We played one pocket for approximately four hours on a 9 foot Diamond Pro Cut with a ball return—basically the same table that is at most major tournaments.

In the four hours of play we had AT LEAST 5 major skids. I have never seen pool balls exhibit such profound skids at such a high rate. I noticed that after the balls went through the ball return system, they had a certain level of dust clearly visible on them.

This Saturday I took the Cyclop balls to another pool hall. I practiced straight pool and a little 9 ball for about two hours. Not one skid on a Simonis covered gold crown with no ball return.

Question: Could it be that there is something about the clear finish on Cyclop balls (my understanding is that while they are good balls, they are different than Aramith), which attracts and retains dirt, dust, etc. existing inside a Diamond table’s ball return system, which then makes skidding significantly more likely than when compared to an Aramith “rate of skidding”?

kollegedave

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I wonder what would cause that? Increased static electricity, perhaps?

No, no... that's just British junk science that's been thoroughly disproven by TMNS ("That Makes No Sense")

 

[Johnnyt]

Pool balls have been skidding for 100 years or more. It's no more than something on a ball, like dirt, chalk, sweat from hands, or humidity. Players today want conditions perfect and just about have the balls making themselves. Way too much over thinking on here. Johnnyt

 

[realkingcobra]

I recently bought a set of Cyclop balls. Before a few nights ago, I had played with them only twice and they had been through the diamond polisher after each session. I had noticed no skidding WHATSOEVER though about 5 hours of play. At this point, my entire use of the balls was on an old 9 ft. A.E. Schmidt with no ball return.

However, a week ago I began a cheap gambling session with a player that I am evenly matched with. We played one pocket for approximately four hours on a 9 foot Diamond Pro Cut with a ball return—basically the same table that is at most major tournaments.

In the four hours of play we had AT LEAST 5 major skids. I have never seen pool balls exhibit such profound skids at such a high rate. I noticed that after the balls went through the ball return system, they had a certain level of dust clearly visible on them.

This Saturday I took the Cyclop balls to another pool hall. I practiced straight pool and a little 9 ball for about two hours. Not one skid on a Simonis covered gold crown with no ball return.

Question: Could it be that there is something about the clear finish on Cyclop balls (my understanding is that while they are good balls, they are different than Aramith), which attracts and retains dirt, dust, etc. existing inside a Diamond table’s ball return system, which then makes skidding significantly more likely than when compared to an Aramith “rate of skidding”?

kollegedave

Two different tables, in two different locations, with different conditions with both tables...and all you can come up with is....one had a ball return and the other didn't?...Really?? Maybe, just MAYBE the cloth on the Diamond has been cleaned with something that can induce friction related skids? Did you try other balls to see if they skid as well? Think outside the box...

Glen

 

[kollegedave]

Two different tables, in two different locations, with different conditions with both tables...and all you can come up with is....one had a ball return and the other didn't?...Really?? Maybe, just MAYBE the cloth on the Diamond has been cleaned with something that can induce friction related skids? Did you try other balls to see if they skid as well? Think outside the box...

Glen

Aramith balls are used on the Diamond table in question on a daily basis and seem to skid much less. The Diamond table is rarely cleaned. When it is cleaned, it is vaccumed.

kollegedave

 

[Dopc]

You'd be surprised just how dirty a ball return system gets on nearly any ball return table. I like The Brunswick open wire rail system for its ease of cleaning. It's basically just the collection box needing frequent cleaning and from time to time and wipe down the wire tracks (if ever at all).

Now on a closed internal ball return system (Diamond, Dynamo/Valley, Global & many, many more), regular cleaning is not such a simple task and is nearly never done. They usually only get cleaned when the table is disassembled for new cloth, and that is only if the table tech goes that extra step (some don't bother at all, they're all about the "hit it & get it", collect on the invoice and run).

The internal ball return systems get filthy, I mean really filthy over time. Chalk dust buildup, environmental dust, pocket lint or anything else that happens to find its way down the pockets. When the return systems gets that dirty, I've seen balls leave dust trails on the cloth as they roll on the table. Bet your bottom dollar it has some affect on any balls playability.

As far as if this is the the root cause of the "skid" factor of the Cyclop balls, I have no clue, but it could be a contributing factor for sure. The static charge of a ball will certainly act like a magnet to the chalk/environmental dust contained within the ball return system as it rolls through. I say to the OP, good observation and thought.

Dopc.

 

[realkingcobra]

Aramith balls are used on the Diamond table in question on a daily basis and seem to skid much less. The Diamond table is rarely cleaned. When it is cleaned, it is vaccumed.

kollegedave

And how are the regular balls cleaned used on that table? There are way to many reasons as to what can cause balls to skid on a pool table, but I'd bet on the ball return not being one of them reasons

 

[Bob Jewett]

Did your opponent in the 1P use one of those fancy new chalks that sticks to the balls? Raj was using that against Oscar in one of the TAR matches and the cue ball looked like it had chicken pox and measles.

In any case, look at the cue ball after each skid, see what the problem might have been, and clean it.

 

[kollegedave]

Pool balls have been skidding for 100 years or more. It's no more than something on a ball, like dirt, chalk, sweat from hands, or humidity. Players today want conditions perfect and just about have the balls making themselves. Way too much over thinking on here. Johnnyt

Johnnyt,

First of all, if we could improve conditions, why not?

I was skeptical of reports coming out the US Open this year about the Cyclop balls skidding more often. That is why I went ahead and bought my own set.

The Diamond table in question has araminth balls used on it on a daily basis, and these aramith balls are not cleaned nearly enough (basically they are dirty) and the table is not often cleaned, still, skids are rare occurrences with the aramith balls. However, my Cyclop balls, fresh out of the box, were exhibting profound skids at a rate that would seem to greatly exceed what would normally take place on the same table with aramith balls.

Sure, it is a small sample size, but maybe other people have experienced this?

kollegedave

 

[kollegedave]

Did your opponent in the 1P use one of those fancy new chalks that sticks to the balls? Raj was using that against Oscar in one of the TAR matches and the cue ball looked like it had chicken pox and measles.

In any case, look at the cue ball after each skid, see what the problem might have been, and clean it.

No fancy chalk here. Just Master.

kollegedave

 

[realkingcobra]

I was skeptical of reports coming out the US Open this year about the Cyclop balls skidding more often. That is why I went ahead and bought my own set.

That's weird, because the report I got from the BCA was that almost no one complained about the balls skidding during the BCA events that took place with the new balls. I got my information straight from the horses mouth...where did you hear your information?

Glen

 

[kollegedave]

That's weird, because the report I got from the BCA was that almost no one complained about the balls skidding during the BCA events that took place with the new balls. I got my information straight from the horses mouth...where did you hear your information?

Glen

I got my information from AZ forums. I think some of this was addressed on a long thread about Cyclop balls. Certainly, my information is second hand. It may be that skidding occurred less frequently or not at all at the open, but there was serious skidding with my set last monday.

Here is what I am NOT saying: The Diamond table's ball return system contributes to an increased amount and an increased severity of skidding when used in conjuction with Cyclop balls.

Here is what I am asking: Is it possible that the Diamond table's ball return system contributes to an increased amount and an increased severity of skidding when used in conjuction with Cyclop balls?

Clearly, you think that the answer to my question is NO. Great. I would be interested to hear why you think that.

kollegedave

 

[realkingcobra]

I got my information from AZ forums. I think some of this was addressed on a long thread about Cyclop balls. Certainly, my information is second hand. It may be that skidding occurred less frequently or not at all at the open, but there was serious skidding with my set last monday.

Here is what I am NOT saying: The Diamond table's ball return system contributes to an increased amount and an increased severity of skidding when used in conjuction with Cyclop balls.

Here is what I am asking: Is it possible that the Diamond table's ball return system contributes to an increased amount and an increased severity of skidding when used in conjuction with Cyclop balls?

Clearly, you think that the answer to my question is NO. Great. I would be interested to hear why you think that.

kollegedave

That's an easy answer...because where the balls actually roll down the ball return...millions of times, there is no more dirt & dust on the tracks than there is where the balls roll on the cloth, as the contact point of the balls on the ball return wire have done as much to remove anything in the way as they're able to do. Unless the ball returns have been disturbed in one way or another, the Cyclops balls are not rolling on the ball return wires anywhere that any other balls are not rolling...so, in other words...there's nothing new being picked up by the Cyclops balls that wouldn't have already been picked up and relocated by all the rest of the balls that have already rolled down the ball returns millions of times already.

 

[realkingcobra]

I got my information from AZ forums. I think some of this was addressed on a long thread about Cyclop balls.

Not the best source of information, that's for sure

 

[Dopc]

That's an easy answer...because where the balls actually roll down the ball return...millions of times, there is no more dirt & dust on the tracks than there is where the balls roll on the cloth, as the contact point of the balls on the ball return wire have done as much to remove anything in the way as they're able to do. Unless the ball returns have been disturbed in one way or another, the Cyclops balls are not rolling on the ball return wires anywhere that any other balls are not rolling...so, in other words...there's nothing new being picked up by the Cyclops balls that wouldn't have already been picked up and relocated by all the rest of the balls that have already rolled down the ball returns millions of times already.

Completely discredits my earlier post in this thread. I see what your saying about the "tracks" and it makes complete sense. Is it probable though as a ball is traveling down that track (speaking about enclosed ball return systems, like a Valley type system) , the air circulation of that passing ball can also stir even more dust/debris back up on those tracks for the following ball to pick up and so on and so on.

RKC, you're the one with experience and I respect & honor that experience accordingly. I have nearly zero verifiable experience, however I have seen inside many ball return tables (mostly coin-ops). They are down right filthy, dusty, chalky debris laden caves. Yuckkkkkk!!!!!!!!

It would be nice if these tracks could be easily accessible and cleaned frequently. But much like anything else would be ignored and never happen even if this were an option

Not the best source of information, that's for sure

Hehe, this made me chuckle. Better than the mainstream media though, that's for sure. :thumbup:

 

[Cdryden]

I don't pretend to know the answer but I can offer this, When I had first got my table I had a championship cloth, aramith balls and silver cup chalk. I played a ton of hours with that combination and regularly cleaned my cloth and balls. When it came time to change the cloth I noticed something that surprised me. The amount of chalk dust trapped under the cloth was enough to make it's own cube of chalk!
I believe that the skids I got were mostly a maintenance problem that I thought I had under control. The excess of chalk dust in and under the cloth had to contribute to the ball skids that I got.

This tells me 2 things, I need to learn a better method of cleaning the cloth and I needed to upgrade to a higher quality of worsted cloth. Now I have less skids than before even after over 2 years on the worsted cloth. Maintenance was the key for me.

I also think that maybe the finer grained Silver Cup chalk made the maintenance issue worse for me. I have since switched back to Masters and have been very happy.

 

[realkingcobra]

I don't pretend to know the answer but I can offer this, When I had first got my table I had a championship cloth, aramith balls and silver cup chalk. I played a ton of hours with that combination and regularly cleaned my cloth and balls. When it came time to change the cloth I noticed something that surprised me. The amount of chalk dust trapped under the cloth was enough to make it's own cube of chalk!
I believe that the skids I got were mostly a maintenance problem that I thought I had under control. The excess of chalk dust in and under the cloth had to contribute to the ball skids that I got.

This tells me 2 things, I need to learn a better method of cleaning the cloth and I needed to upgrade to a higher quality of worsted cloth. Now I have less skids than before even after over 2 years on the worsted cloth. Maintenance was the key for me.

I also think that maybe the finer grained Silver Cup chalk made the maintenance issue worse for me. I have since switched back to Masters and have been very happy.

Can you hear someone yelling..."BINGO"...we have a winner folks:thumbup:

 

[realkingcobra]

Completely discredits my earlier post in this thread. I see what your saying about the "tracks" and it makes complete sense. Is it probable though as a ball is traveling down that track (speaking about enclosed ball return systems, like a Valley type system) , the air circulation of that passing ball can also stir even more dust/debris back up on those tracks for the following ball to pick up and so on and so on.

RKC, you're the one with experience and I respect & honor that experience accordingly. I have nearly zero verifiable experience, however I have seen inside many ball return tables (mostly coin-ops). They are down right filthy, dusty, chalky debris laden caves. Yuckkkkkk!!!!!!!!

It would be nice if these tracks could be easily accessible and cleaned frequently. But much like anything else would be ignored and never happen even if this were an option



Hehe, this made me chuckle. Better than the mainstream media though, that's for sure. :thumbup:

Bar tables need to be cleaned out everytime the cloth gets changed...no matter what, but someone needs to tell the table mechanic doing that work...that cleaning out the table and return tracks...IS PART OF THE JOB!!!

 

[Cdryden]

Can you hear someone yelling..."BINGO"...we have a winner folks:thumbup:

Thanks Glen. It seems like I should say something about a blind sow and their acorn?!?

 

[RBC]

If I'm not mistaken, they didn't even use the Cyclop cue ball during the US Open events at the Rio.

I know from my personal experience that I haven't seen any more or less skids with the Cyclop balls. I've used them 3 times now in our booth. Twice at the BCA Trade Show, and now at the BCAPL event at the Rio.

I will say this though. 15 years ago, before the average pool player knew anything about a bad contact or skid, everyone was happy. I mean pool was much bigger and played by way more people then too. Back then the term "skid" was used to describe how the balls would slide more on new cloth as compared to old cloth.

Now, more often than not, I hear the term skid used when in reality the player just missed the shot. I'm not saying they don't happen, I know they do. But I would say that more than half of the times I've witnessed a shot that was blamed on a skid it just look like they missed to me.

Just my observations