Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

[CJ Wiley]

'One Foul Rules' eliminate the best part of the game - the constant mental sparring

Your wright you did have to get the rules straight before you flipped the coin,.But I don't ever remember it being played,the way SJD played,when you did get 2 fouls on your opponent,you only got to put the cue ball behind the line.That doesn't make much sense to me.

You're RIGHT!!! That's not the way most people played back then, it wouldn't be enough punishment for making two fouls, it was played "Ball in Hand Anywhere on the Table".
EXCEPT ON A SCRATCH - IT WAS BALL IN HAND BEHIND THE LINE (STRING)

When two great players are matched up, there is seldom two fouls committed by the same player and if it happens they should lose the game......and the opponent should earn it by clearing the remaining balls with "ball in hand" anywhere on the table.

This is a LOT different than just playing "one foul" - 'One Foul Rules' eliminate the best part of the game.....the constant mental sparring between the two players.

When I play someone 'Two Shot Shoot Out' I can tell what level they play at in just a few games by how they respond to may "push outs"......it tells almost the entire story of how they play, what shots they know and don't know, if they're offensively wired or how "tight" they are on the defensive level.

This type of game is SO MUCH FUN TO PLAY and I'll even watch two players play this game because I'm always curious how other players strategically process the game.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Neil]

That only works if your opponent doesn't see the safety that you do. He locks you up on your own push a couple of times, and you learn real quick what your opponent can really see.

You aren't understanding the rules correctly. If it's any two fouls, then I just have to lock him up, and he has to hit it legally or I get BIH. I never have to shoot at anything harder than a duck because all I have to do is push the cb to freeze to any ball and then he is stuck trying to 2,3, or 4 rail kick to make a legal shot.

I've never seen anyone play that way for the very reason I mentioned above. It was always two consecutive fouls by the same person. And, it was always BIH in the kitchen, not anywhere.

 

[CJ Wiley]

In gambling there's many figures of speech - not to be taken literally in many cases

You aren't understanding the rules correctly. If it's any two fouls, then I just have to lock him up, and he has to hit it legally or I get BIH. I never have to shoot at anything harder than a duck because all I have to do is push the cb to freeze to any ball and then he is stuck trying to 2,3, or 4 rail kick to make a legal shot.

I've never seen anyone play that way for the very reason I mentioned above. It was always two consecutive fouls by the same person. And, it was always BIH in the kitchen, not anywhere.

When we played "any two fouls" it was said pertaining to the roll out. This meant if someone rolled out and you took the shot and scratched or fouled it was "ball in hand anywhere on the table". Before countless gambling matches the players would ask each other "any two fouls, or two by the same player?" - then they would come to an agreement on this rule and whether the "line" was touching or base of ball, etc.

This was the figure of speech used in most parts of the country, and not to be taken literally, like "ball in hand" isn't literally a ball in your hand. 'The Slang is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

PINKIES in Colorado Springs and it was quite the place - pink tables (except the 9')

Jetterville Bobby Goad would agree. He's the original Pinkies owner. And we must Not forget Diane, his wife.

I played JR HARRIS many years ago at PINKIES in Colorado Springs and it was quite the place - pink tables (except the 9' ones) and Wiley Coyote chasing the Road Runner around the room on miniature train tracks with "something in his hand". LoL

What about PINKIES bathroom walls, that was hilarious too.

 

[Island Drive]

I played JR HARRIS many years ago at PINKIES in Colorado Springs and it was quite the place - pink tables (except the 9' ones) and Wiley Coyote chasing the Road Runner around the room on miniature train tracks with "something in his hand". LoL

What about PINKIES bathroom walls, that was hilarious too.

Yep he also had em in Denver and towards the end, he had a place in Vegas that Mark Estes ran. The Denver place got em in trouble. His Karate expert bouncer hurt a patron/lawsuit, biz closed and that was his last stint other than the Vegas spot he had for maybe 20 years?

 

[Bigtruck]

"The acronym is the Teacher"

Playing ball in hand behind the line on ANY 2 fouls is a completely different game and strategy than 2 consecutive fouls by the same person. (the correct way to play).

The push out is a foul. If incoming player gives it back and you foul again it's BIHBTL.

Ray

 

[Bigtruck]

I played JR HARRIS many years ago at PINKIES in Colorado Springs and it was quite the place - pink tables (except the 9' ones) and Wiley Coyote chasing the Road Runner around the room on miniature train tracks with "something in his hand". LoL

What about PINKIES bathroom walls, that was hilarious too.

Jr Harris vs Jeremy Jones FInals of the 1994 Houston Open

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnYoMLhwubk

Ray

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pinkies in Las Vegas.....they had some HOT women!

Yep he also had em in Denver and towards the end, he had a place in Vegas that Mark Estes ran. The Denver place got em in trouble. His Karate expert bouncer hurt a patron/lawsuit, biz closed and that was his last stint other than the Vegas spot he had for maybe 20 years?

Yes, I've been through many of those lawsuits through the years, even by people beating their own heads on the concrete in front of uniformed police (that one cost us 15K).

I had some great experiences at the Pinkies in Las Vegas.....they had some HOT women!

 

[Island Drive]

Thx, tho I thought I saw 1999 on Jr's shirt.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

To be clear I am not a scientist, but I have a working familiarity with memory systems (I read and used extensively the teachings of "the memory Book" in college). The distinction, I believe, is in the use of "working" memory.

I'll have to give that article a read sometime when I have a few hours. Looks long and very technical. I am, however, interested in what you mean by "working memory" and how that is different from the type of memory I am speaking about in blindfold chess. Keeping track of 46 boards with 64 squares each and a total of 1472 individual pieces on them seems like a lot of work for anybody's memory.

FWIW playing blindfold chess is considered by some to be the most mentally taxing activity a human can engage in. Players end up totally exhausted for days, unable to rid themselves of mental images of numerous board positions. It used to be thought that playing blindfold chess led directly to insanity as several prominent grandmasters who excelled at blindfold went nuts. Several other famous players spoke out publically against its practice, while carrying out exhibitions themselves in private. I think I read somewhere that the Soviet government actually banned exhibitions of blindfold chess at one point because they thought it was bad for their national treasures.

I played a ton of chess in my youth and reached a fairly high level of play. As my speed increased I began to become plagued with chess positions in my head as I tried to get to sleep. I never got so I could see a whole board all at once, but I could clearly remember and see in my head an entire 16-square quadrant of my choosing, and "move" the pieces around within that quadrant. I could also "see" attack lines from opponents pieces that lay outside that quadrant, even though I couldn't directly visualize the pieces in question.

I don't doubt that if I stayed with the game I'd have been able to see the entire board and all of its pieces at some point. Glad that never happened, I'm crazy enough as it is.

Anyway, sorry to hijack this wonderful and fascinating thread. Please carry on with whatever it's about at this point.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I've never seen anyone play that way for the very reason I mentioned above. It was always two consecutive fouls by the same person. And, it was always BIH in the kitchen, NOT anywhere on the table.

That is correct Neil !..It makes me wonder if the Coyote's 'YES MAN', Rusty C,..ever really played ANY 2 shot roll out ???

Your wright you did have to get the rules straight before you flipped the coin,.But I don't ever remember it being played,the way SJD played,when you did get 2 fouls on your opponent,you only got to put the cue ball behind the line.That does'nt make much sense to me.

Rusty C, sir,...I assume you meant "RIGHT"..But you couldn't be any more "RONG" ! (nice guess though)...
Also, there was no need to 'GET THE RULE'S STRAIGHT'...As it was the accepted way to play (pro and amateur alike)
for 50 yrs. before "TexExp" was ever heard of !

 

[CJ Wiley]

Two Shot Ball in Hand ANYWHERE on the Table.

Thats funny,we've been saying how great 2 foul roll out is,and everybody has forgotten the rules.

Only the ones that drink too much b/l/w have forgotten the rules.:rotflmao1: It's "Two Shot Ball in Hand".....that's certainly not behind the line, it's anywhere on the table.

Keith McCready

outlined the rules in his article that was posted earlier. WIthout the punishment of "ball in hand" after the second foul the game would lose some of it's pressure and would get long and drawn out like one pocket.

The shots on average are much more challenging in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' than One Pocket and I know from my PMs that many people now see the light. When you're rolling out you can create thousands of variables, and in one pocket you're far more limited.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Whoever takes the shot must make a legal hit or the other player gets ball in hand.

For anyone that didn't read the article by Keith McCready on "TWO SHOT" here it is again, notice the part in red concerning the "ball in hand" rules and also REGARDING which foul ball in hand occurs on.


Tough Rolls

By Keith McCready,

InsidePOOL Columnist

The pool industry has weathered some tough rolls over the years. It has accomplished many successes, in many respects, upon entering the international arena as well as acquiring lucrative sponsors, and these endeavors are made possible by the personal contributions of hard-working folks who have a vision and want to take pool to a higher level. I have always wondered, though, how the two-shot/push-out rule from the early '70s changed to the o*ne-foul/ball-in-hand rule used in today's competitions. My guess at that time, it was because the people from the East Coast couldn't beat the people from the West Coast, so they had to change the rule.



For those who may not know what the two-shot/push-out rule is, it goes like this. At any time during the game, you can push the cue ball to anywhere o*n the table that you think you are able to make the shot and your opponent cannot. Your opponent then decides whether or not he wants to shoot this shot. Whoever takes the shot must make a legal hit o*n the object ball without scratching. A legal hit means you must hit the object ball with enough speed to allow the object ball to hit the rail or, if the cue ball hits the rail first and then makes contact with the object ball, the object ball must hit the rail. If no legal hit is executed, then the other player gets ball in hand.
Let me tell you a cute story. There was a high-paying tournament in Memphis, Tennessee, and all of the best "gunfighters" and stake-horses were in attendance. I was about 21 years old, a little green in some ways, but I was virtually unknown in these parts. By the end of the tournament, I already had my target, a local fellow by the name of St. Louis Louie Roberts. Needless to say, he was o*ne of the top players in the world at that time.
After some barking back and forth, the railbirds settled o*n their perches, and it didn't take long for the game to begin. We decided to play a 7-ahead set, meaning o*ne player had to win seven games ahead of the other. Now, Louie was rated as o*ne of the toughest 9-ball players in the world and I was real young and o*n the road, but I had no fear as I raced to the table to flip the coin.
Louie could cut a ball o*n a dime, but what he didn't know was that I was practicing the cut shots myself. So he could not roll out for these really hard cut shots, and if he did, I would either make the shot or leave him safe, instead of letting him shoot, which left him benched more times than not. At the conclusion of each set, Louie would politely excuse himself from the table for a few minutes and played it off as if he was going to wash his hands, and after a period of time, I started breaking him down o*n the strength of the two-shot/push-out rule. We ended up playing four sets of the 7-ahead game, and I won all four.

paragraph deleted ........

In the days of two-shot/push-out, it was harder to beat a good player like St. Louis Louie Roberts. The best player would be forced to out-shoot their opponent in order to win. There would be more offense with your defense. Now there is a lot more luck involved in the game of pool, which I can't stand. If the rules used back in the '70s were in force, I think my game could maybe shine all over again. The victory could, and would, not be won with lucky rolls, and it would force players use their pool-playing skills and God-given talent. The game would not rely o*n the luck factor as much, and we could transform the tournament trail back to where I think it should be: Two-shot/push-out, and let the best player win.

 

[SJDinPHX]

For anyone that didn't read the article by Keith McCready on "TWO SHOT" here it is again, notice the part in red concerning the "ball in hand" rules and also REGARDING which foul ball in hand occurs on.

By Keith McCready,

InsidePOOL Columnist

"A legal hit means you must hit the object ball with enough speed to allow the object ball to hit the rail or then the other player gets ball in hand.

Nice try Coyote !..Keith just forgot to include the words, "IN THE KITCHEN"...He assumed EVERYONE knew that !...I suggest you call him and ask him, to save yourself further embarassment !.. There was NO GAME, (any discipline) where you got ball in hand, "ANYWHERE ON THE TABLE", until TexExp came along ! (are you sure you are in your late 40's )

Did you forget why everybody shot pretty good 'spot shots' back in the day ?

Nice ride though, very appropo !...

 

[BeiberLvr]

So just so I understand correctly.

CJ's rules are

Player A rolls out, and then Player A or Player B must make a legal hit. If a legal hit is not made, it's ball in hand anywhere on the table. If the player scratches, then it's ball in hand behind the line, and the lowest ball spots if it's behind the line.

SJD's rules are

The same except any non-legal hit or scratch always results in ball in hand behind the line.


Honestly, it sounds like SJD's rules are more correct, but I think I would prefer to play by CJ's rules.

Also, if my opponent scratches and I have BIH in the kitchen, but no direct shot on the lowest ball. Can I pass it back, or do I have to shoot?

 

[peteypooldude]

I don't know about anyone else but I do wish you would quit trying to run him off the forum. Some of us like him. He's not the only one you badger to death.
For the good of the game I wish you'd back off,
But that's just me. I like his information and stories. He can't do anything but stay wrapped up in BS that many of us care nothing about to start with. You could tell some stories yourself.. We would love to hear them. Nothing good is coming from this
And Y'all don't have to agree but let it go

 

[Mikjary]

A scratch is the first foul. You can make them shoot again from the kitchen. If they second foul by scratching, etc., it's BIH anywhere on the table.

I used to roll out to stroke shots by breaking up clusters and trouble balls. They had to shoot my roll out when the balls were wide open. When shape was on opposite ends of the table, I would roll out to two way shots. If I missed, my position sent the cue ball far away from the ball I missed.

If you played a great banker, you played safe (like in TE) if they rolled out to sporty banks. Or you played the two way shot and got pose coming in to the next ball from an angle that didn't leave much if you missed.

I liked to leave the cue ball on the rail. My opponents did, too. :smile: When you're always shooting off of the rail, your percentages drop and you start to look hard at the roll outs. It sharks some guys after a while. They tighten up after a few misses.

Best,
Mike

 

[Neil]

I don't know about anyone else but I do wish you would quit trying to run him off the forum. Some of us like him. He's not the only one you badger to death.
For the good of the game I wish you'd back off,
But that's just me. I like his information and stories. He can't do anything but stay wrapped up in BS that many of us care nothing about to start with. You could tell some stories yourself.. We would love to hear them. Nothing good is coming from this
And Y'all don't have to agree but let it go

Don't worry, he's not going anywhere as long as he has stuff to sell.

 

[JB Cases]

A scratch is the first foul. You can make them shoot again from the kitchen. If they second foul by scratching, etc., it's BIH anywhere on the table.

I used to roll out to stroke shots by breaking up clusters and trouble balls. They had to shoot my roll out when the balls were wide open. When shape was on opposite ends of the table, I would roll out to two way shots. If I missed, my position sent the cue ball far away from the ball I missed.

If you played a great banker, you played safe (like in TE) if they rolled out to sporty banks. Or you played the two way shot and got pose coming in to the next ball from an angle that didn't leave much if you missed.

I liked to leave the cue ball on the rail. My opponents did, too. :smile: When you're always shooting off of the rail, your percentages drop and you start to look hard at the roll outs. It sharks some guys after a while. They tighten up after a few misses.

Best,
Mike

Yeah I am confused. I grew up playing two foul but it was in the era when TE was being used. I thought it was bih any where on the second foul and only in the kitchen on scratches. Someone needs to dig out an old rule book.

 

[Rusty C]

Nice try Coyote !..Keith just forgot to include the words, "IN THE KITCHEN"...He assumed EVERYONE knew that !...I suggest you call him and ask him, to save yourself further embarassment !.. There was NO GAME, (any discipline) where you got ball in hand, "ANYWHERE ON THE TABLE", until TexExp came along ! (are you sure you are in your late 40's )

Did you forget why everybody shot pretty good 'spot shots' back in the day ?

Nice ride though, very appropo !...
View attachment 300024

I just talked to Andy Olgiun,he said ya played 4 or 5 times,and it was always ball in hand after 2 fouls.