Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

[CJ Wiley]

all the gambling games in the country were played with Two Shot ball in hand anywhere

I don't guess it occurred to anyone that different people grew up with different rules,
in different parts of the country?

Maybe in texas (home of texas express) nobody for 250 miles played it behind the line.
Maybe in arizona it was the norm to play behind the line.

It's not like pool rules are universal and strictly followed.
There are 8,374 versions of 8-ball, why not 2 versions of rollout 9-ball?

There are different versions, but all the gambling games in the country were played with Two Shot ball in hand anywhere on the table. My team traveled in 40 states and played primarily 'Two Shot Shoot Out' games for a living. Texas was just another state back then, most of the action was in Tenn. Ky, Mo. N. Carolina, S Carolina, Florida, Alabama, Miss., Georgia, Penn. Cali. and we even played a lot in Kansas.

The group I'm talking about are players like Omaha John, Jack Cooney, Surfer Rod, Weldon Rogers, David Matlock, Keith McCready, Buddy Hall, James Christopher, Sammy Jones, Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland, etc etc etc......the gambling in those days was ALL TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT with ball in hand ANYWHERE on the table after TWO fouls, not one like these days.....there's a tremendous difference.

 

[HawaiianEye]

2F9B Footage....is there any out there?

I know there wasn't many people filming pool way back in the early 70s or so, but surely there must be some footage of people playing "2-foul 9-ball" floating around somewhere.

I would love to see a link if anybody knows of one out there in the cyber universe.

Aloha.

P.S. I think the "Country Calvin" tournament (or whatever they called it) a year or so ago used old school rules. Was anyone recording any of it?

 

[Ken_4fun]

There are different versions, but all the gambling games in the country were played with Two Shot ball in hand anywhere on the table. My team traveled in 40 states and played primarily 'Two Shot Shoot Out' games for a living. Texas was just another state back then, most of the action was in Tenn. Ky, Mo. N. Carolina, S Carolina, Florida, Alabama, Miss., Georgia, Penn. Cali. and we even played a lot in Kansas.

The group I'm talking about are players like Omaha John, Jack Cooney, Surfer Rod, Weldon Rogers, David Matlock, Keith McCready, Buddy Hall, James Christopher, Sammy Jones, Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland, etc etc etc......the gambling in those days was ALL TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT with ball in hand ANYWHERE on the table after TWO fouls, not one like these days.....there's a tremendous difference.

CJ -

You wanna give Buddy Hall a call? I have his number and will PM it to you if you need it.

Again I have never seen 2 shot pushout played but Buddy talked about it ALL THE TIME, and laminted its demise as well as Dickie Todd the owner of the poolroom that Buddy played daily.

I am NOT trying to be a smarta$$, just offering to help.

I dont have a clue either way. But I do know if you get Buddy talking about 2 shot pushout you better be prepared to have him go off that it is a million times better than Texas Express.

( I have heard it so many times I dont care to hear it again ...wow :thumbup: He really gets fired up about it.)

Ken

 

[CJ Wiley]

This is impossible in one foul or one pocket!!!

CJ -

You wanna give Buddy Hall a call? I have his number and will PM it to you if you need it.

Again I have never seen 2 shot pushout played but Buddy talked about it ALL THE TIME, and laminted its demise as well as Dickie Todd the owner of the poolroom that Buddy played daily.

I am NOT trying to be a smarta$$, just offering to help.

I dont have a clue either way. But I do know if you get Buddy talking about 2 shot pushout you better be prepared to have him go off that it is a million times better than Texas Express.

( I have heard it so many times I dont care to hear it again ...wow :thumbup: He really gets fired up about it.)

Ken

Buddy Hall knows the Truth, that Two Shot Shoot Out is 100 times better than one foul......Playing One Foul Ball in Hand as no "battling" between the players and very little strategy.

I have Buddy's contact info. and have talked to him about many things in pool and we agree....... one of the reasons they changed the rules was to keep the best players from winning EVERY tournament.....these players were Buddy Hall and Earl Strickland.

In just 10 minutes of playing Two Shot I can tell how a player plays and their in depth knowledge of pool....in just 10 MINUTES (watching how they roll out and respond to my roll outs). THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE IN ONE FOUL OR ONE POCKET!!!

'The Game (of Shoot Out) is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

If there's enough interest I'll put together a video and maybe get Earl

I know there wasn't many people filming pool way back in the early 70s or so, but surely there must be some footage of people playing "2-foul 9-ball" floating around somewhere.

I would love to see a link if anybody knows of one out there in the cyber universe.

Aloha.

P.S. I think the "Country Calvin" tournament (or whatever they called it) a year or so ago used old school rules. Was anyone recording any of it?

Yes, but it was on a bar table so you can't see how the game actually is played. I was in the tournament, but it was right when I started back and I didn't play near "top speed".

Two Shot Shoot Out is still a MUCH better game than one foul on the bar table, but you won't see all the strategic movement that you will on a 9' or 10' table.

If there's enough interest I'll put together a video and maybe get Earl, Buddy, or a top notch player like Rodney or Hunter Lombardo (top notch instructor/player) to show how the game is played and the advanced techniques to learn to "Play it Like a Pro".

Aloha, 'The Game {of Shoot Out} Will be the Teacher'

 

[SJDinPHX]

There are different versions, but all the gambling games in the country were played with Two Shot ball in hand anywhere on the table. My team traveled in 40 states and played primarily 'Two Shot Shoot Out' games for a living. Texas was just another state back then, most of the action was in Tenn. Ky, Mo. N. Carolina, S Carolina, Florida, Alabama, Miss., Georgia, Penn. Cali. and we even played a lot in Kansas.

The group I'm talking about are players like Omaha John, Jack Cooney, Surfer Rod, Weldon Rogers, David Matlock, Keith McCready, Buddy Hall, James Christopher, Sammy Jones, Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland, etc etc etc......the gambling in those days was ALL TWO SHOT SHOOT OUT with ball in hand ANYWHERE on the table after TWO fouls, not one like these days.....there's a tremendous difference. <--In case you haven't bothered to notice, I am in agreement here !

I assume those remarks were directed at me ?..Let me point out, that I have travelled those states, and the entire country, as much (or probably MUCH more) than you have !.. Secondly, I knew almost all the player's you mentioned, as well, (or probably better) than you ! (if they were over 40 )

Admittedly, there was a time when "newbie's" (like yourself) began playing "BIH-anywhere" on the table !..Prior to that, (like forever) NO ONE played that way !!!..That is why you cannot furnish ANY rotation game rule book, that supports your claim !

Your "know it all, holier than thou" attitude, (plus your 40 to 1 posting ratio) makes it hard to get my point across !..But that's OK..everyone I care about, already knows the facts !

Carry on, Mr.Wil-ey,

The Roadrunner, (heres another 'funny' for ya) :sorry:. :wink:

 

[Ken_4fun]

Yes, but it was on a bar table so you can't see how the game actually is played. I was in the tournament, but it was right when I started back and I didn't play near "top speed".

Two Shot Shoot Out is still a MUCH better game than one foul on the bar table, but you won't see all the strategic movement that you will on a 9' or 10' table.

If there's enough interest I'll put together a video and maybe get Earl, Buddy, or a top notch player like Rodney or Hunter Lombardo (top notch instructor/player) to show how the game is played and the advanced techniques to learn to "Play it Like a Pro".

Aloha, 'The Game {of Shoot Out} Will be the Teacher'

CJ -

I would appreciate a video.

It would be great with Keith, Buddy or even SJD. I would prefer to have them mic ed as well and get their commentary as well.

I am about worn out with Earl.

Ken

 

[Matt]

...I think 'Two Shot Shoot Out' makes rotation games more DIFFICULT than One Pocket.

That's because you equate the average shot execution difficulty with the "difficulty" of the game. I have broke and ran a lot more racks of 9 ball than one pocket, so by that metric, 9 ball is way easier. To take two games that are as different as one pocket and 9 ball and make an unqualified statement about which is more difficult just doesn't make sense.

Consider this: Games that are too easy are not suitable for competition because mistakes are too infrequent. Games that are too hard are not enjoyable because wins don't feel like an accomplishment; they just feel like your opponent lost first. Both one pocket and 2-foul 9-ball fall somewhere in the middle. As long as they are both in that range, it doesn't matter if one is more "difficult" than another. What does matter is that they are fair and incorporate just the right amount of luck.

NO GAME compares to playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out' 9 Ball as far as shot making, strategy and all around enjoyment. imho

Finally. Now you can get back to promoting your game of choice by discussing what you find appealing about the game instead of trying to compare it to other games. If you actually got into the situations and strategies that you think make 2-foul special (as promised), you might convince some people to play it.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Don't worry, he's not going anywhere as long as he has stuff to sell.

Yeah, and we're only enabling him by responding to all his posts. We keep him on center stage, and that's all that matters. Besides, I'm sure he could give a shit what anyone really thinks of him here. As they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity.

No matter. As long as a guy's willing to drop his drawers, bend over, and expose his bare ass to the public, I'm more than willing to lob an occasional rotten tomato at it.

I'll bet the guys over on onepocket.org are sure glad he has nothing to sell them, though. 8 posts in 6 months over there compared to about 8 per hour here. He didn't even start a thread over there claiming that two-foul push out was harder than one hole. What a surprise.

 

[8pack]

Get really good at this two foul push out and you should be able to beat any one pocket player. Cj how many major events have you won in one pocket?
Also what type of shot's in roll out do you not see in one pocket.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

He played some snooker, but LA KEITH was the best PAY BALL playing (on a snooker table) in the USA for a period of time......I believe Jimmy Reid was also a top notch PAY BALL player.

Thanks. What's PAY BALL?

 

[jimmyg]

Thanks. What's PAY BALL?

What's PAY BALL!!!

Why, pay ball is the most difficult and strategically challenging game ever played, it makes two shot push out seem like child's play. :smile:

Only kidding, what is it CJ?

J

 

[CJ Wiley]

just stating the facts of the matter.

I assume those remarks were directed at me ?.

You assumed wrong - just stating the facts of the matter.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I pointed that out from the begining and even outlined the parameters

That's because you equate the average shot execution difficulty with the "difficulty" of the game.

Yes, I do and I pointed that out from the beginning and even outlined the parameters in the 12 points of difficulty posted several days ago.

. Games that are too hard are not enjoyable because wins don't feel like an accomplishment; they just feel like your opponent lost first.

This sounds like snooker, and it is a very popular game to watch - it is very difficult in many ways including many that are in the 12 points of difficulty. But this is "apples to oranges" of course.

 

[SJDinPHX]

What's PAY BALL!!!

Why, pay ball is the most difficult and strategically challenging game ever played, it makes two shot push out seem like child's play. :smile:

Only kidding, what is it CJ?

Let me answer, please !...'Pay Ball' is played on a snooker table, with balls numbered 1 thru 6...You MUST shoot the balls, ONLY in numeric order (which means you MUST be able to count to six).. and each ball has a pre-determined $$$ value !!!.. The mind boggling strategic maneuvers in 'Pay Ball', make 2F 9 ball look incredibly simple !.. Some places they play, if you commit 2 consecutive fouls, you are barred from the game for life !

Only "top professional's" are allowed to even attempt this game, as they have already proven they can count to NINE ! .. :boring2: :boring2: :boring2:

PS..Not sure, but I think Wil-ey may have been banned for life !

Average Pay Ball player...........

 

[YubaCushion]

I think everybody is missing the the fact that it's the push out that makes the game a challenge.
If you took any pool game and added the push out, that game would be that much more challenging as well.

 

[CJ Wiley]

there are a plethora of different angles, speeds, and cue ball positioning.

Also what type of shot's in roll out do you not see in one pocket.

I've never seen any shots in the side pockets that meant much in one pocket :groucho:....in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' there's many shots that are directed towards the side pockets, many which are advanced "two way shots". Of course with 6 pocket as opposed to just one there are a plethora of different angles, distances, speeds, and cue ball positioning requirments.

These specific shots have to be shown on video, they're better demonstrated and explained at the same time. We have 37 different shot variations and 15 themes that I will go over which is 555 various shots - for the purpose saving time we'll condense them down to the most important ones to prove the main points quickly, and effectively.

 

[CJ Wiley]

shooting off the end rail offensively is VERY IMPORTANT as well, it's essential .....

I think everybody is missing the the fact that it's the push out that makes the game a challenge.
If you took any pool game and added the push out, that game would be that much more challenging as well.

Yes, that's correct, when you can push out anywhere you can create virtually any situation.....and you can move one, two or more balls on the push out. Re positioning the ball AFTER the one you're shooting at is VERY IMPORTANT.....and if you make a ball on the "push out" it spots, if you make two balls on the push out TWO BALLS SPOT.

This creates an incredible amount of variables, and the most important thing is to create situations where there's a potential "two way shot" on EVERY opportunity by learning to hit the "Pro Side" of the pockets. This is another skill that has been limited in "one foul ball in hand"......and shooting off the end rail offensively is VERY IMPORTANT as well, it's essential to be able to bank, cut and carom while frozen on the end rail.

 

[pt109]

Thanks. What's PAY BALL?

You rack up the 6 colors on the pink spot...
...and play by the rules of 9-ball....there were variations.

The bet is usually money on every ball, double on the black.

Three names come to mind that were outstanding at this game.
...on a 5x0..Jimmy Reid, Dennie Searcy, and Ronnie Allen.

On a 6x12, I feel that Ronnie and Dennie were in a class of their own.

 

[NYC cue dude]

Yep, that the way we played rotation games growing up in NYC. If the sequence ball was in the kitchen, you either kicked at it or shot just past the kitchen and spun the cue back into the kitchen. :smile:

J

I'm 48. I don't recall seeing bih anywhere on the table until my teens (early to mid 80's). Everything was cue ball in the kitchen before that. And yes, we kicked back into the kitchen to make that legal hit.