Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

[SJDinPHX]

Yeah I am confused. I grew up playing two foul but it was in the era when TE was being used. I thought it was bih any where on the second foul and only in the kitchen on scratches. Someone needs to dig out an old rule book.

John, you will be looking for quite a while, before you find ANY rule book, anywhere, that allows for a ball to be placed ANYWHERE on the table, in ANY rotation game !

Just like the old 8 ball rules, all BIH situations, specified "shoot from behind the kitchen line"...In fact if the object ball you were on, (or the 8 ball) you had to kick at it...Remember ?..I'm not saying that was a good rule, but those WERE the accepted rules !

I think when 9 ball came along, they modified it to spotting object balls (behind the line, or made on a foul shot).. hence the 'spot shot' came about !

 

[SJDinPHX]

I just talked to Andy Olgiun,he said ya played 4 or 5 times,and it was always ball in hand after 2 fouls.

Always liked Andy..Good guy ! Tell him I said Hi !...He must be about my age, and one of us is terminally 'forgetful'...

We go so far back, I think we played the old "try to hit the ball" way ! (remember, when anything else was considered "unmanly" (or 'chicken sh*t).

 

[Rusty C]

Always liked Andy..Good guy ! Tell him I said Hi !...He must be about my age, and one of us is terminally 'forgetful'...We go so far back, I think we played the old "try to hit the ball" way ! (remember, anything else was considered "unmanly"...

Yea Andy's 78 now,he said gambled against each other alot,but were still real good friends.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I don't know about anyone else but I do wish you would quit trying to run him off the forum. Some of us like him.

Calm down Pooldude, I like him too !..He can stand up for himself !.. If he can't take the 'softballs' I been throwin' at him, (and you)...he deserves to be run off !..

PS..Try going a few rounds with John Barton, Lou F. or Neil !...Now them is "hardball's" !

 

[JB Cases]

John, you will be looking for quite a while, before you find ANY rule book, anywhere, that allows for a ball to be placed ANYWHERE on the table, in ANY rotation game !

Just like the old 8 ball rules, all BIH situations, specified "shoot from behind the kitchen line"...In fact if the object ball you were on, (or the 8 ball) you had to kick at it...Remember ?..I'm not saying that was a good rule, but those WERE the accepted rules !

I think when 9 ball came along, they modified it to spotting object balls (behind the line, or made on a foul shot).. hence the 'spot shot' came about !

That's cool. I was just a kid when I learned 2 foul. Most of my playing was done under TE or the German rules which didn't even have a push after the break.

 

[ribdoner]

John, you will be looking for quite a while, before you find ANY rule book, anywhere, that allows for a ball to be placed ANYWHERE on the table, in ANY rotation game !

Just like the old 8 ball rules, all BIH situations, specified "shoot from behind the kitchen line"...In fact if the object ball you were on, (or the 8 ball) you had to kick at it...Remember ?..I'm not saying that was a good rule, but those WERE the accepted rules !

I think when 9 ball came along, they modified it to spotting object balls (behind the line, or made on a foul shot).. hence the 'spot shot' came about !

This was the common way to play when i was a pup in the chi area

not to say rules weren't modified by consent

 

[jimmyg]

John, you will be looking for quite a while, before you find ANY rule book, anywhere, that allows for a ball to be placed ANYWHERE on the table, in ANY rotation game !

Just like the old 8 ball rules, all BIH situations, specified "shoot from behind the kitchen line"...In fact if the object ball you were on, (or the 8 ball) you had to kick at it...Remember ?..I'm not saying that was a good rule, but those WERE the accepted rules !

I think when 9 ball came along, they modified it to spotting object balls (behind the line, or made on a foul shot).. hence the 'spot shot' came about !

Yep, that the way we played rotation games growing up in NYC. If the sequence ball was in the kitchen, you either kicked at it or shot just past the kitchen and spun the cue back into the kitchen. :smile:

J

 

[CJ Wiley]

ALWAYS "ball in hand" anywhere on the table after two fouls.

I just talked to Andy Olgiun,he said ya played 4 or 5 times,and it was always ball in hand after 2 fouls.

Yes, Two Shot Shoot Out was the only gambling rules we played in the 70's, 80's and early 90's and it was ALWAYS "ball in hand" anywhere on the table after two fouls.

The only stipulation was the "two consecutive fouls" (by either player) or two fouls by the same player. I've heard of playing "in the kitchen" but that makes the game silly like "one foul" does, just in a different way due to their not being enough penalty for 2 fouls. If someone fouls twice they deserve to give up "ball in hand". imho

Under no circumstances do you ever have to kick at a ball in the "kitchen," that's like saying you can "scoop" the cue ball to jump over object balls....it's simply not true.

Yep, that the way we played rotation games growing up in NYC. If the sequence ball was in the kitchen, you either kicked at it or shot just past the kitchen and spun the cue back into the kitchen.

I will put together a video explaining the Two Shot Shoot Out Rules and also a 15 minute one specifically demonstrating how Two Shot Shoot Out make 9 Ball more difficult than One Pocket. Anyone is invited to compete if they're not afraid of "Burning up their Money". LoL

 

[BeiberLvr]

Yes, Two Shot Shoot Out was the only gambling rules we played in the 70's, 80's and early 90's and it was ALWAYS "ball in hand" anywhere on the table after two fouls.

The only stipulation was the "two consecutive fouls" (by either player) or two fouls by the same player. I've heard of playing "in the kitchen" but that makes the game silly like "one foul" does, just in a different way due to their not being enough penalty for 2 fouls. If someone fouls twice they deserve to give up "ball in hand". imho

Under no circumstances do you ever have to kick at a ball in the "kitchen," that's like saying you can "scoop" the cue ball to jump over object balls....it's simply not true.

I will put together a video explaining the Two Shot Shoot Out Rules and also a 15 minute one specifically demonstrating how Two Shot Shoot Out make 9 Ball more difficult than One Pocket. Anyone is invited to compete if they're not afraid of "Burning up their Money". LoL

It'd be cool if you made a video explaining the rules of two shot, or at least the rules you play by.

I guess the thing I'm most confused about now is if you're playing BIH on two consecutive fouls by the same player. How does that happen exactly?

The way I'm picturing it is if I roll out (that would be one foul), and then you play safe. Now I'm forced to make a legal hit, and don't have the option of rolling out. Is that correct?

If so, I don't see a huge difference between playing that way vs. the one foul rules of today. The only real exception is that the first player always has that option to roll out, but if it's not to a shot their opponent can make, then they might be coming back to the table while hooked.

 

[CJ Wiley]

That's correct, Mike, shooting off the end rail becomes a big part of the game,

A scratch is the first foul. You can make them shoot again from the kitchen. If they second foul by scratching, etc., it's BIH anywhere on the table.

I used to roll out to stroke shots by breaking up clusters and trouble balls. They had to shoot my roll out when the balls were wide open. When shape was on opposite ends of the table, I would roll out to two way shots. If I missed, my position sent the cue ball far away from the ball I missed.

If you played a great banker, you played safe (like in TE) if they rolled out to sporty banks. Or you played the two way shot and got pose coming in to the next ball from an angle that didn't leave much if you missed.

I liked to leave the cue ball on the rail. My opponents did, too. :smile: When you're always shooting off of the rail, your percentages drop and you start to look hard at the roll outs. It sharks some guys after a while. They tighten up after a few misses.

Best,
Mike

That's correct, Mike, shooting off the end rail becomes a big part of the game, as does two way banks, cuts and the advanced players can favor a side of the pocket to give themselves the best chance of getting safe (another way of playing a "two way shot").

Two Shot Shoot Out is an incredible game, when people started playing "one foul ball in hand" it was the "beginning of the end" of gambling in pool. Poker became the strategic game of choice because "one foul" rules take out most of the strategy....it diluted the game into "Lite Pool"......no taste and not filling. 'The Real Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

.The Game is vastly different than "One Foul" that's why we're talking about it

It'd be cool if you made a video explaining the rules of two shot, or at least the rules you play by.

I guess the thing I'm most confused about now is if you're playing BIH on two consecutive fouls by the same player. How does that happen exactly?

The way I'm picturing it is if I roll out (that would be one foul), and then you play safe. Now I'm forced to make a legal hit, and don't have the option of rolling out. Is that correct? No, once a legal hit is made you're no longer on "one foul"....so what you're thinking is NOT true

If so, I don't see a huge difference between playing that way vs. the one foul rules of today. The only real exception is that the first player always has that option to roll out, but if it's not to a shot their opponent can make, then they might be coming back to the table while hooked.

If you "roll out" and the opponent makes you shoot again and you scratch or foul they get ball in hand - once a legal hit is made you're no longer on "one foul"..

The Game is vastly different than "One Foul" that's why we're talking about it so much......if you've never played it there's no way of knowing what we're talking about....I'll be willing to teach everyone how to play it if there's interest, if not then at least I offered.

I have a new pool room to work on so it's not like I have a lot of extra time......also just got home from a tournament that I got lucky and won and we've been gambling playing one pocket in Ft. Worth this week as well. Oh yeah, the Earl Strickland Documentary about him winning the MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE is about done as well.....look for it the first week in DECEMBER......Pool's Going Strong in TEXAS....thank Goodness.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

Only the ones that drink too much b/l/w have forgotten the rules.:rotflmao1: It's "Two Shot Ball in Hand".....that's certainly not behind the line, it's anywhere on the table.

Keith McCready

outlined the rules in his article that was posted earlier. WIthout the punishment of "ball in hand" after the second foul the game would lose some of it's pressure and would get long and drawn out like one pocket.

The shots on average are much more challenging in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' than One Pocket and I know from my PMs that many people now see the light. When you're rolling out you can create thousands of variables, and in one pocket you're far more limited.

Did KM play snooker?

 

[SakuJack]

Did KM play snooker?

Do you mean the picture? I'm not sure if it's a snooker table - the black ball looks to have a number on it (making it an eight).

 

[Pathetic Shark]

Do you mean the picture? I'm not sure if it's a snooker table - the black ball looks to have a number on it (making it an eight).

Yeah, I wasn't quite sure, which is why I asked. Not sure about the black but the bottom ball appears to be a 9, on closer inspection.

 

[SakuJack]

Yeah, I wasn't quite sure, which is why I asked. Not sure about the black but the bottom ball appears to be a 9, on closer inspection.

Yeah my first reaction was that it could be a snooker table, although looking closer I think they're pool balls. Not entirely sure, though.

 

[sfleinen]

Did KM play snooker?

Do you mean the picture? I'm not sure if it's a snooker table - the black ball looks to have a number on it (making it an eight).

Yeah, I wasn't quite sure, which is why I asked. Not sure about the black but the bottom ball appears to be a 9, on closer inspection.

Yeah my first reaction was that it could be a snooker table, although looking closer I think they're pool balls. Not entirely sure, though.

CJ would never post a picture of any other game. Afterall, the only game that people should be playing, and the only game that matters, is 9-ball.

-Sean <-- joins Tim and SakuJack in the "could it possibly be?" speculation

 

[Bambu]

Its been a long time, but I think I might remember why there is debate as to the old rules. There were 2 ways to play 9 ball back then, "regular" and "push out." Regular would be SJD's way, and push out would be CJ's.

I know that at one point we did play with BIH anywhere on the table, we called it push out (after any 2 fouls). Getting BIH with your object ball frozen behind a ball on the spot came up often. You would only have to kick at the OB if it was the first scratch, but you had the option to pass the shot up(I think). I'm sure we got BIH anywhere because playing that frozen ball safety was the first safety I ever learned.

 

[CreeDo]

I don't guess it occurred to anyone that different people grew up with different rules,
in different parts of the country?

Maybe in texas (home of texas express) nobody for 250 miles played it behind the line.
Maybe in arizona it was the norm to play behind the line.

It's not like pool rules are universal and strictly followed.
There are 8,374 versions of 8-ball, why not 2 versions of rollout 9-ball?

 

[CJ Wiley]

LA KEITH was the best PAY BALL playing (on a snooker table) in the USA for a period

Did KM play snooker?

He played some snooker, but LA KEITH was the best PAY BALL playing (on a snooker table) in the USA for a period of time......I believe Jimmy Reid was also a top notch PAY BALL player.

 

[CJ Wiley]

All Pocket Games are Enjoyable, but Two Shot Shoot Out is BEST imho

CJ would never post a picture of any other game. Afterall, the only game that people should be playing, and the only game that matters, is 9-ball.

-Sean <-- joins Tim and SakuJack in the "could it possibly be?" speculation

I really like one pocket and played one of the best players in Texas on Tuesday night.

My opinion isn't that One Pocket is not a facinating and strategic game, I've been clear that I think 'Two Shot Shoot Out' makes rotation games more DIFFICULT than One Pocket. I'm so sure of that I've offered to debate ANY one in the world on video or streaming video and also wager if there's a neutral panel of judges.

I grew up playing 8 Ball and Rotation (15 Ball), I didn't start playing One Pocket until I was in my 30s and played it well in the mid 90s. I've gambled with Ronnie Allen playing one pocket on the 10' table, and if anyone saw it in Dallas they will tell you what happened......Tony Fargo and I also played a lot with Wade Crane and Cliff Joyner as well.

I even like 14..1 Pocket Billiards and played in Grady's tournament in Maine. I "got lucky" to win against Efren Reyes in the winners side and he came back and won against me in the finals. I enjoy "Straight Pool," but NO GAME compares to playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out' 9 Ball as far as shot making, strategy and all around enjoyment. imho