There Is NO Hope For Pro Pool IMO
- Thread starter Johnnyt
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Yes it was big in those days, and the better you got the more you were exposed to the many disreputable aspects of it, like the massive drug use, all the thefts, many players were outright criminals, including murderers, and thieves trying to hustle recreational players trying to have fun.
The underbelly of the sport was despicable, which is why it never got anywhere in attracting corporate sponsors. Once a legit company got a whiff of it, they were gone.
Yeah John, it is very hard to be optimistic about where pool is headed.. We've had several posts on the subject, and a lot of people say pretty much the same things. The only variety we get, seems to be when someone posts about another great pool room closing its doors !
Its also hard to believe, a pool movie, (even one better than "the Hustler", and "TCOM" combined)..would do any more than provide a welcome, but very temporary spurt !.. Let me explain my reasoning ! I can't back it up with number's but, I'd bet a large percentage of the AZB forum members, are "baby boomer age", or older. There is also a good % that may be too young, and naïve, to realize what is happening, and WHY !.. Pool and snooker, are still enjoyed world wide, but here in the U.S., it has become mainly a league based operation, that gets a guy out of the house for a few hours, to guzzle a beer or two with the guys !
Serious player's have been declining at an alarming rate, for quite some time now, and there is virtually NO "road" anymore, or (to use Jam's vernacular) ANY feasible "Tournament Trail" to pursue !..Even a great promoter (and lover of pool) like CJ Wiley, is heavily investing in what he says, is a pool room/night club..I'm sure he is smart enough to lean towards the "Night Club/liquor/restaurant" part of his new place, rather than depend on pool as a viable source of revenue !
Yes, the economy, and smoking laws, have taken their toll !.. But our history has shown, that usually made it 'better' for the gambling element, that frequent pool halls ! Not any more, and probably never again !.. I applaud the efforts of people like the "Str8 Shot group" who are keying in on our youth, as a way to stimulate interest in our game..But, they have an almost impossible task ahead of them.
Reason being, the youth of today, has literally hundreds of options at their disposal, to keep their VERY SHORT attention spans occupied. They have video games, Ipod's, cell phones, (with unlimited texting ?) paintball, and dozens of other diversions..none of which require hours of practice and dedication, to become proficient at !..And every few months, a new fad is introduced, and they flock to it, en masse !..
This is a fairly recent phenomenon, that pool has never had to deal with before !..It is hard to believe it will ever change, for the better..Thats why, even the hardiest of tournament promoter's, are pulling in their horns, and I fear this may be pro pools 'last gasp' !..We all hate to see that happening, but it doesn't look like ANYTHING is going to change it ! :sorry:
SJD
SJD knows the history of Pool, he has seen the Good Days, Bad Day, and has some to compare what was, and what is today. So those who want to bank on some take the man insight to the bank, as if I was a betting kids of guy I would bet on Dicks observations.
Boxing is not what it was in the 50's with nightly fights on TV. Horse racing is alive, but not well. BTW at the Turn of the 20th Century People were reading their News, in Newspapers.
In 2013 the Newspaper Industry is is maybe 10% or less of what was 50 years ago. Time Magazine is barley handing on, Newsweek is no longer available except On LINE. The Globe, Enquire, and other Tabloids have either gone way, or cut staff by 70-80%.
Recall as a kid in the 50's & 's being 9-11 daily Newspaper in the San Fernando Valley of LA County. Some with a Morning, Afternoon & Late Evening Editions editions. Think the LA Daily News is still being published, and the LA times. All the others are gone.
The World is a changing, and so have the Sports that people are supporting. Today it is the NFL,NBA, MLB, PGA, NASCAR, NHL Hockey, and College Sports thanks to Cable TV, and modern technology.
You are exactly right, but that's one thing that should make it easier to promote and get attention for pool not harder. The old media no longer has a stranglehold on what information can be published. Anyone with a computer can write and publish. However, my experience has been that many in the pool community are very reluctant to take to new media. Only a handful of pro players have twitter accounts. Only a smaller subset of those tweet or interact regularly. More have facebook, but most only have regular personal pages and not fan pages where they can interact and promote themselves. The same goes for companies and promoters. I've seen that TAR is starting to tweet and facebook more and that's great. You can really build grassroots interest that way. For example I'm a nobody and I have over 200 twitter followers.
Thank you Mr. Doom & Gloom! Actually boxing is probably bigger than it was in the 50's. Back then not even every home had a tv...now every home has several. Back then there were 3 channels...now there are 300+, many of which are exclusively sports channels 24/7. Major professional boxing matches today have full arena audiences, paying huge $$$ for tickets in Vegas...not to mention nationwide PPV audiences (not possible in the 50's). Horse racing has declined, but it's still popular. Churchill Downs alone attracts hundreds of thousands of avid race fans...and not just on Derby Day. The fact that many people get their news and sports reporting through electronic media vs print media means nothing...the reach is still there, regardless of how it is derived. The tabloid media has never been more usefull than as toilet paper. It will not be missed. BTW, the tabloids history shows their emergence and height of popularity was the 70's and 80's, before the advent of mass media programming, available through the internet.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
In the fifties Fred Davis (many time world snooker champion) was interviewed and he was asked about snookers future. He responded, "snooker has no future". At this point in time, I believe the world title was played for on a challenge basis. There was few to no snooker tournaments for professionals to play in and most players made their money through the exhibition circuit. In short, things looked far bleaker than they currently do in American Pool. Thirty odd years later 18.5 million people watched Dennis Taylor and Steve Davis bunt the black around the table in the final frame of the world championships.
There is most certainly hope, but it will require lots of work. First and foremost there needs to be an infrastructure created that can be built upon and not a loose affiliation of events that may or may not run each year. Other than that, I have no idea really, but there is always hope. It just needs to be the right idea at the right time. And if snooker can get there, surely pool can as well.
There is most certainly hope, but it will require lots of work. First and foremost there needs to be an infrastructure created that can be built upon and not a loose affiliation of events that may or may not run each year. Other than that, I have no idea really, but there is always hope. It just needs to be the right idea at the right time. And if snooker can get there, surely pool can as well.
But the one thing that is hard is to get people interested Pool, when Pool has so much competition from consumer electronics, 200 plus channel of cable TV, computer games, and things that were not around say in 1954 the first time I saw a Pool table at a Boys Club of America, and said wow.
So because you know so much how do you see a solution to a problem that was talked about 5 years ago, and still has not been fixed by those in the Pool industry.
BTW it is called TRUTH, not Doom & Gloom. BTW the Tabloid Media broke the big stories many times before the mainstream media, because they understood spending money, got them the big stories the other media did not, or was not willing to go after.
That is call and investment on travel, sending out teams of reporters, and the results were exclusives on big stories.
Also the tabloid media is not dead, it is now mainstream like the Daily Mail in the UK & NY Post in the USA, and other media who publish daily, and use modern technology to their advantage.
It went thru some transitions but Hurricane Higgins had Rock Star status ,, flamboyant full of bravado and with the help of color TV broadcasts it rapidly gained in popularity it lost that for some time but I between it still was a very popular sport so getting it to its level of now was not as hard as it would be here .. They don't have near the competition of other sports like this country has
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Boxing
in comparison,,when I was a kid I better not get in front of the TV on friday nites.Gillettes had The Friday nite fights for free.I can remember dad & his buddys betting 50 cents per match.That was a BIG deal.Now to watch an important fight you have to shell out BIG bucks to watch a champion that might have only fought a few matches.Aw man ,,the good old days
in comparison,,when I was a kid I better not get in front of the TV on friday nites.Gillettes had The Friday nite fights for free.I can remember dad & his buddys betting 50 cents per match.That was a BIG deal.Now to watch an important fight you have to shell out BIG bucks to watch a champion that might have only fought a few matches.Aw man ,,the good old days
Boyes is living over here now?
Possibly true. Though at this point I'm not hoping for Golf status, even getting to the heights of bowling would be something of a success. The top 18 players have made $40,000 or more this year (38,000 actually for number 18), that would be major progress for pool if it was consistent from year to year.
EDIT: Should have checked the money list on AZ first, pool this year is pretty close to bowling. Corey Deuel is 17th ranked with 39,225. But 6 bowlers have made over 100,000 compared to 3 pool players. Still, would be nice for that level tv exposure.
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Thanks again Fran
I have been thinking about what you wrote here for the last few weeks, almost to the point of giving up playing, almost, not quite ready yet. I have seen cheating and dishonesty at every level. I have even been giving the league thing a try the last 6 months, and its the same old thing, and with me it really is getting old. The bottom line is the majority of the people that pool attracts hurts pool. Not everyone is like that, I have met some really nice people, but it is what it is, and you nailed it. Why people tap dance around that fact, especially here on AZ, is hard to figure. I will take a wild guess and say that bar box 8 ball is probably the most popular pool game period, everywhere for the most part When are these gurus of pool going to realize that? Regional team play with a finals say in LV. People need something to root for, yes? I mean, isn't that obvious? You could even incorporate the so called "pro players" by having each team allowed 1 pro player on its roster. It doesn't take an MBA to figure this kind of stuff out. I was brought up in a time where we were taught you started out at the bottom and worked your way up. Why doesn't somebody try that with pool? It just might work.
I have been thinking about what you wrote here for the last few weeks, almost to the point of giving up playing, almost, not quite ready yet. I have seen cheating and dishonesty at every level. I have even been giving the league thing a try the last 6 months, and its the same old thing, and with me it really is getting old. The bottom line is the majority of the people that pool attracts hurts pool. Not everyone is like that, I have met some really nice people, but it is what it is, and you nailed it. Why people tap dance around that fact, especially here on AZ, is hard to figure. I will take a wild guess and say that bar box 8 ball is probably the most popular pool game period, everywhere for the most part When are these gurus of pool going to realize that? Regional team play with a finals say in LV. People need something to root for, yes? I mean, isn't that obvious? You could even incorporate the so called "pro players" by having each team allowed 1 pro player on its roster. It doesn't take an MBA to figure this kind of stuff out. I was brought up in a time where we were taught you started out at the bottom and worked your way up. Why doesn't somebody try that with pool? It just might work.
I have watched 3 very good weekly tournaments at 3 different locations about an average 50 miles distance between them fall apart because of dishonesty and cheating. Each tournament averaged between 40 and 60 players. At one of these you could count on seeing players from several different states on the same SAT night because there was almost always a 4 figure payout to the top finisher. This is the training ground for up and coming players who want to turn pro? Maybe this could be part of the reason why pro pool will never be a success with the way things are now.
What types of dishonesty and cheating? Dumping? I ask as a wannabe promoter who's trying to start a local tournament scene in my area,and I wanna know what to look out for.
I'm not even sure what the pro game is anymore.
Professional players have done everything in their power to change the games and rules played to suit themselves, not taking into account that it makes the game completely unrecognizable to the tens of millions who play pool only occasionally. Let's play nine ball. Wait, make that ten ball. Wait, make that ten ball with option to give the table back to opponent after a miss --- in some events. Jump cues are permitted --- in some events. You have to call your shots ---- in some events. Better yet, let's play Bonus Ball, a game that pros reportedly love to play but a game of which amateurs know nothing. Oh wait, there's a six pocket version of Bonus Ball --- thing is, nobody has ever seen it played.
Pro pool is played at a slower pace today than I can ever remember. American pros don't want a shot clock, though, they'd rather be allowed to preside over a shot for an eternity, even while onlooking fans watch in befuddlement and agony. Rack your own? I've never seen the bangers play that way.
Tough times, but not irrecoverable. But what game are we playing? I've lost track. We're not playing games that are recognizable to many ---- one of many problems we must resolve.
Professional players have done everything in their power to change the games and rules played to suit themselves, not taking into account that it makes the game completely unrecognizable to the tens of millions who play pool only occasionally. Let's play nine ball. Wait, make that ten ball. Wait, make that ten ball with option to give the table back to opponent after a miss --- in some events. Jump cues are permitted --- in some events. You have to call your shots ---- in some events. Better yet, let's play Bonus Ball, a game that pros reportedly love to play but a game of which amateurs know nothing. Oh wait, there's a six pocket version of Bonus Ball --- thing is, nobody has ever seen it played.
Pro pool is played at a slower pace today than I can ever remember. American pros don't want a shot clock, though, they'd rather be allowed to preside over a shot for an eternity, even while onlooking fans watch in befuddlement and agony. Rack your own? I've never seen the bangers play that way.
Tough times, but not irrecoverable. But what game are we playing? I've lost track. We're not playing games that are recognizable to many ---- one of many problems we must resolve.
There are people who have been working on this for a long time, it is one of the main missions of the WPA. It hasn't happened yet and it won't for quite a while, if ever. For one thing, there is a moratorium on new sports in the Summer Games so the only way to get a slot is if another event is eliminated. And pool isn't near the top of the list as a replacement.
Maybe best shot from the outside for big time professional pool aside from having a billionaire benevolent benefactor come along, is for a sporting good giant like Nike to get a wild hair and decide they want a piece of the equipment market (like they did with golf) and come in with bucks to organize a tour with some decent prize money. I do think that if the money was there TV could be persuaded to give it a go and then there's a chance. But I don't see Nike or anyone else getting dollar signs in their eyes when they look at pool.
But other than that, it would take everyone inside the pool industry (players included) that can take a long view and put personal agendas aside. Thus far these attributes have been lacking. Not in every single individual certainly, but it would take all involved to think this way.
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Having tournaments without TV is like a tree falling in the forest, it makes no sound
What has been going on for the past 13 years must die for the future game to live.
I believe if they would have done the oppostite of what's been going on it would have been much better. They have tournaments where there's 400 players and just a few fans, and it should be the other way around.
TV is the Key!!! Having tournaments without TV is like a tree falling in the forest, it makes no sound unless someone's around to hear it. Pool's the same way, tournaments without TV do absolutely nothing for the overall growth, and over the years this has been proven.
The overall industry is down over 40% from the "out of public sight, out of the public mind" scenario.......if we keep seeing these patters we will keep seeing exactly the same results.......the old rules, formats and concepts must die for the future to live.
What has been going on for the past 13 years must die for the future game to live.
I believe if they would have done the oppostite of what's been going on it would have been much better. They have tournaments where there's 400 players and just a few fans, and it should be the other way around.
TV is the Key!!! Having tournaments without TV is like a tree falling in the forest, it makes no sound unless someone's around to hear it. Pool's the same way, tournaments without TV do absolutely nothing for the overall growth, and over the years this has been proven.
The overall industry is down over 40% from the "out of public sight, out of the public mind" scenario.......if we keep seeing these patters we will keep seeing exactly the same results.......the old rules, formats and concepts must die for the future to live.