Rodney Morris Challenges the Top 25 European Players

[CJ Wiley]

Michaela Tabb and the other referees are VERY PROFESSIONAL and above reproach

CJ,

As a former team captain I imagine you would know (I don't): in the Mosconi Cup, are you saying that you are not allowed to *check* the rack? I can understand the concept that you must accept it, but you can't even look at it? What would Willie Mosconi say if he *thought* he spotted a dead ball in the pack playing 14.1 and as he went over to inspect it, he was told "Sorry, you can't look closely...you just have to hit and hope...afterall, this is a *professional* match".

From my point of view, the break is a skill shot. Understanding the gaps is part of the game...and part of breaking effectively. I bet that you could set up a contest between the best breaker in the world (take your pick) and some B player who knows how to read the rack. The pro can't look at the rack, and the B player can. Who is gonna make more balls on the break? (Now this is assuming that the balls are racked "pretty good", not perfect).

I play in a local tourney every week. It is small money, and I am usually the strongest player. There is no handicap. In my mind, the "spot" I give the other players is that I will never ask for a re-rack. Usually by the end of the night, I will have received maybe 2 or 3 good racks, and 20 or 30 total disasters. BUT...I've learned how to make balls pretty consistently even with the disasters. Do you think this is wrong? Should I just not even look at the rack and just cross my fingers and allow my opponents racking skills to determine my success in the tourney?

I'm asking seriously, not trying to create conflict. I'm curious how the "don't look at the rack" idea plays out. I feel like it is basically just deciding to ignore a particular aspect of the game.

What do you think?

KMRUNOUT

You can act like your looking at it (from a distance) to let the referee know you are aware and non verbally tell them to be careful to give you a "good rack".

However, the English people you are dealing with have a great deal of integrity/professionalism and they take their snooker and pool very seriously. Michaela Tabb and the other referees are VERY PROFESSIONAL and frankly are above reproach.

This is like watching the dealer in a big poker game....you can and should watch, but if you get too close you will politely be told to back off.....and if you persist you will have to look for another game to play in.

If a player questions the integrity of the Mosconi Cup's referees it will be looked down on, and if you persist you will NOT be invited back.

I agree with this position they take, just like I agree with the poker example/analogy. If there was ever an honest person involved in pool/snooker (which there are many of course) it's Michaela Tabb. In My Humble Opinion!!!

 

[CreeDo]

What do you mean?

If he doesn't elaborate, I figure I can.

With the cut break your cue ball is more likely to go wild if you hit it a hair off.
It gets in the path of moving balls and is susceptible to getting kicked around.
And even if you avoid all of that, you often make the 1 ball in the side
and then the location of the 2 is semi-random.

You are counting on luck to have a viable shot after a cut 9b break.
Compare to shane's hard 10b break where he reliably hangs the 1 in the corner pocket near him,
so he can play position for that ball.

Niels has the 'squarest' cut break I've ever seen, making the wing ball and 1 in the side
while hitting 90% dead on. The cue ball often travels just a short distance, to the side
and then back out to the center. So it's definitely POSSIBLE to cut break in a controlled way.

Niels breaking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NIg1v1IO-5o#t=926

And yet, notice he has jack shit on the 2 ball.

If you have not quite mastered it, you can still make the balls, but your cue ball can easily get kicked
or otherwise go a bit wild. Like in this case where Johnny makes one of the intended balls,
but almost scratches in the side:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NIg1v1IO-5o#t=1365

Nick hits it very well here, but still gets kissed by a flying ball and nearly hooked on the 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NIg1v1IO-5o#t=1923

Another great controlled break where the CB gently stuns over and back, and yet... where's the 2 this time?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NIg1v1IO-5o#t=2615

 

[CJ Wiley]

"Consistent Luck is Skill, However Consistent Skill is Rarely Luck"

If he doesn't elaborate, I figure I can.

With the cut break your cue ball is more likely to go wild if you hit it a hair off.
It gets in the path of moving balls and is susceptible to getting kicked around.
And even if you avoid all of that, you often make the 1 ball in the side
and then the location of the 2 is semi-random.

You are counting on luck to have a viable shot after a cut 9b break.
Compare to shane's hard 10b break where he reliably hangs the 1 in the corner pocket near him,
so he can play position for that ball.

Niels has the 'squarest' cut break I've ever seen, making the wing ball and 1 in the side
while hitting 90% dead on. The cue ball often travels just a short distance, to the side
and then back out to the center. So it's definitely POSSIBLE to cut break in a controlled way.

Niels breaking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NIg1v1IO-5o#t=926

And yet, notice he has jack shit on the 2 ball.

If you have not quite mastered it, you can still make the balls, but your cue ball can easily get kicked
or otherwise go a bit wild. Like in this case where Johnny makes one of the intended balls,
but almost scratches in the side:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NIg1v1IO-5o#t=1365

Nick hits it very well here, but still gets kissed by a flying ball and nearly hooked on the 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NIg1v1IO-5o#t=1923

Another great controlled break where the CB gently stuns over and back, and yet... where's the 2 this time?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NIg1v1IO-5o#t=2615

That's correct, and like "kicking" there's a "skill to consistent luck".

Anytime the cue ball criss crosses between moving balls it creates more variables ie: luck.....the object is to cut down on these variables as much as possible.

The "cut break" is a different stoke than the regular break the Americans use. Much like a driver stroke in golf is different than the pitching wedge stroke....they are similar in nature, but take a different "skill set".

"Consistent Luck can be a Skill, However Consistent Skill is Rarely Luck {in Pocket Billiards}" CJ WIley 'The Inner Game is the Teacher'

 

[KMRUNOUT]

You can act like your looking at it (from a distance) to let the referee know you are aware and non verbally tell them to be careful to give you a "good rack".

However, the English people you are dealing with have a great deal of integrity/professionalism and they take their snooker and pool very seriously. Michaela Tabb and the other referees are VERY PROFESSIONAL and frankly are above reproach.

This is like watching the dealer in a big poker game....you can and should watch, but if you get too close you will politely be told to back off.....and if you persist you will have to look for another game to play in.

If a player questions the integrity of the Mosconi Cup's referees it will be looked down on, and if you persist you will NOT be invited back.

I agree with this position they take, just like I agree with the poker example/analogy. If there was ever an honest person involved in pool/snooker (which there are many of course) it's Michaela Tabb. In My Humble Opinion!!!

Good info CJ. Although somehow my question got missed haha! I was asking if you are allowed to *check* the rack (not question it, not say or imply anything about the integrity of the refs, etc.) in the Mosconi Cup. This isn't an issue of integrity at all, and its a shame if any ref was so overwhelmed with defensiveness that they thought it was. People are not perfect. The best racker on earth, I'm pretty sure, has at least once in their life believed they served up a good rack but made a mistake and didn't notice something. I imagine they must have a clearly spelled out rule about this. Are Mosconi Cup rules posted anywhere?

Thanks,

KMRUNOUT

PS. In my humble opinion, NO human being is above reproach. "Above reproach" to me means incapable of error. This is simply not the human experience.

 

[Neil]

You can act like your looking at it (from a distance) to let the referee know you are aware and non verbally tell them to be careful to give you a "good rack".

However, the English people you are dealing with have a great deal of integrity/professionalism and they take their snooker and pool very seriously. Michaela Tabb and the other referees are VERY PROFESSIONAL and frankly are above reproach.

This is like watching the dealer in a big poker game....you can and should watch, but if you get too close you will politely be told to back off.....and if you persist you will have to look for another game to play in.

If a player questions the integrity of the Mosconi Cup's referees it will be looked down on, and if you persist you will NOT be invited back.

I agree with this position they take, just like I agree with the poker example/analogy. If there was ever an honest person involved in pool/snooker (which there are many of course) it's Michaela Tabb. In My Humble Opinion!!!

Honesty and integrity have nothing to do with it. Unless you believe her to be superhuman and able to get a 9 balls touching everytime without fail. Truth is, some of you pros egos are so big that you can't accept the fact that you don't know everything and therefore refuse to learn anymore. So you take the foolish stance that every rack should just be hit as hard as one can and then see what luck brings your way.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

Honesty and integrity have nothing to do with it. Unless you believe her to be superhuman and able to get a 9 balls touching everytime without fail. Truth is, some of you pros egos are so big that you can't accept the fact that you don't know everything and therefore refuse to learn anymore. So you take the foolish stance that every rack should just be hit as hard as one can and then see what luck brings your way.

What is wrong with pro pool players playing pro pool, and letting the referee get on with their job without being pressurised by the players?

Obviously, the problem is a lack of a strong governing the body, with the result being the tail wags the dog.

 

[Neil]

What is wrong with pro pool players playing pro pool, and letting the referee get on with their job without being pressurised by the players?

Obviously, the problem is a lack of a strong governing the body, with the result being the tail wags the dog.

Nice try, but yet, fail. So, are you saying that a controlled break is not a part of professional pool? And, how can one have a controlled break without even looking at how the balls are racked??

Also, if the ref is so insecure that they feel so pressured by someone looking at the rack, then it's time to get a different ref.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

What is wrong with pro pool players playing pro pool, and letting the referee get on with their job without being pressurised by the players?

Obviously, the problem is a lack of a strong governing the body, with the result being the tail wags the dog.

If a human being racks the balls, the possibility exists that there might be some gaps that a "pro" player (or really anyone with a bit of knowledge about the subject) may determine favors breaking from a particular location, speed, fullness of hit, etc. What is wrong with standing by patiently while the ref racks, then taking a few seconds to look over the result, not saying anything to anyone, making your determination how and where to break from, and then breaking the balls? The referees don't need to be pressured by the players...there ought to be enough pressure on them to perform the often difficult, if not damn near impossible task under some conditions, to rack the balls perfectly.

The only problem I can see with this is if the referee consistently gives poor quality racks, the player may feel they are being treated unfairly. Ignorance of the rack and the subtle differences, spaces, etc. is not a very good basis for determining the best way to handle this issue. The bottom line is that if humans rack, there WILL occasionally be spaces. Preventing the pros from knowing the conditions they are playing under (for example where the spaces are in the rack they have been served up), really takes pool farther from being a legitimate pro sport. Unless, of course, the knowledge about the rack could be wiped from the minds of all people forever. I don't see that happening. As such, some will have the knowledge, and will feel something wrong has been done if they are forced to break a a less than frozen rack. A big part of the problem is the voice of the people who either don't know or don't believe the significance of the spaces in the rack. "Just rack the balls and get on with it" really takes us a big step backwards. It is the exact equivalent of saying "Don't bother with that stuff that you know, because I don't know it and it doesn't matter to *me*"

Thoughts?

KMRUNOUT

 

[Pidge]

Nothing worse than having gaps in the rack and not knowing about them. A 1mm unknown gap can absolutely kill your break. I'm all for checking the rack regardless of the referee and I'm sure the Mosconi Cup players are too...who wouldn't want to lean over Michaela Tabb as she racks? Pervy, but true.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"we don't tell them how to rack and they don't tell us how to break"

What is wrong with pro pool players playing pro pool, and letting the referee get on with their job without being pressurised by the players?

Obviously, the problem is a lack of a strong governing the body, with the result being the tail wags the dog.

That's right, it's like the dealer in Poker, you don't get up and watch them deal like you're suspecting them of cheating. They are professional dealers and you let them do their job...just like in pool, there's no reason to check the rack to see if the referee is cheating.

It's like the signs at the some of the old pool rooms "Don't ask us for credit, we have a deal with the bank, they don't rent pool tables and we don't loan money".

I've played on the Mosconi Cup Team and numerous TV tournaments that had referees racking. All these events went super smooth and no one had any probem with the referees racking......the Refs racked and we broke, no problem......and we weren't looking to create problems so we all had a "secret pact" (agreement).

We had an agreement with the Referees, "we don't tell them how to rack and they don't tell us how to break".

'The Game is the Inner Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

if they are suspecting a ref of cheating them on the rack they are looking to lose

Nothing worse than having gaps in the rack and not knowing about them. A 1mm unknown gap can absolutely kill your break. I'm all for checking the rack regardless of the referee and I'm sure the Mosconi Cup players are too...who wouldn't want to lean over Michaela Tabb as she racks? Pervy, but true.

That's not true, you won't see the Mosconi Cup players checking the rack. I told them to glance at the rack to let the Ref know they were watching, just to make sure they took their time and gave a good rack....not a perfect rack.

It's just like the tip off in Basketball, it's not exactly fair, but it's understood in professional sports that the referees are trying their best to be fair......of course they're human and not perfect, but this is the best attitude to have. Being paranoid is not a good state of mind to be in when you're competing at a high level.

Being paranoid about pool refs on a pool forum is ENTIRELY different than if you were actually playing......TOTALLY DIFFERENT - there's a certain state of mind a professional athlete needs to be in and if they are suspecting a ref of cheating them on the rack they are simply looking for an excuse to lose......nothing more, nothing less.

'The Inner Game is the Teacher'

 

[Neil]

That's right, it's like the dealer in Poker, you don't get up and watch them deal like you're suspecting them of cheating. They are professional dealers and you let them do their job...just like in pool, there's no reason to check the rack to see if the referee is cheating.

It's like the signs at the some of the old pool rooms "Don't ask us for credit, we have a deal with the bank, they don't rent pool tables and we don't loan money".

I've played on the Mosconi Cup Team and numerous TV tournaments that had referees racking. All these events went super smooth and no one had any probem with the referees racking......the Refs racked and we broke, no problem......and we weren't looking to create problems so we all had a "secret pact" (agreement).

We had an agreement with the Referees, "we don't tell them how to rack and they don't tell us how to break".

'The Game is the Inner Teacher'

What is it, you just don't understand, or just won't ever admit when you are wrong? And, your comparison with poker isn't even close.

 

[Neil]

That's not true, you won't see the Mosconi Cup players checking the rack. I told them to glance at the rack to let the Ref know they were watching, just to make sure they took their time and gave a good rack....not a perfect rack.

It's just like the tip off in Basketball, it's not exactly fair, but it's understood in professional sports that the referees are trying their best to be fair......of course they're human and not perfect, but this is the best attitude to have. Being paranoid is not a good state of mind to be in when you're competing at a high level.

Being paranoid about pool refs on a pool forum is ENTIRELY different than if you were actually playing......TOTALLY DIFFERENT - there's a certain state of mind a professional athlete needs to be in and if they are suspecting a ref of cheating them on the rack they are simply looking for an excuse to lose......nothing more, nothing less.

'The Inner Game is the Teacher'

O.K., you don't understand. It's got NOTHING to do with the refs cheating someone. It's got EVERYTHING to do with knowledge about where and how to break from. The fact that you constantly want to equate knowledge with cheating is getting rather old, and also is rather telling on your mindset.

 

[Pidge]

Kind of missing a point a little. What harm is there in checking the rack? I never said about asking a ref to re-rack. It takes 10 seconds to stick your head over the rack, see where the gaps are and adjust your break for them. What are they racking with at the Mosconi Cup? If its a Delta or standard triangle then there will be gaps every break, so why rely on luck when all the players have worked hard studying different gap positions and how they effect a break?

Sure you could give the refs the come hither glance across the table whilst they rack, but how are the refs going to give you a "good" rack? They try their best each time. Its not like they think screw this, I've tried 2 times already, I'm just going to sling the balls in this time and let the player deal with it. It just doesn't happen. No matter how hard the ref tries there will be gaps.

Are you the type of player that relies on luck, CJ? Did luck get you where you are? No. Skill and hard work did.

Next you will be saying "No! You can't check if 2-9 combo is touching, that's not respectful to my opponent. Just give him a glance from across the room and shoot it with a TOI".

 

[CJ Wiley]

racking pool balls (for the Mosconi Cup)

What is it, you just don't understand, or just won't ever admit when you are wrong? And, your comparison with poker isn't even close.

Actually dealing cards and racking pool balls (for the Mosconi Cup) is virtually identical......

 

[CJ Wiley]

Go back and look at ALL the Mosconi Cup matches and show us an example

Kind of missing a point a little. What harm is there in checking the rack? I never said about asking a ref to re-rack. It takes 10 seconds to stick your head over the rack, see where the gaps are and adjust your break for them. What are they racking with at the Mosconi Cup? If its a Delta or standard triangle then there will be gaps every break, so why rely on luck when all the players have worked hard studying different gap positions and how they effect a break?

Sure you could give the refs the come hither glance across the table whilst they rack, but how are the refs going to give you a "good" rack? They try their best each time. Its not like they think screw this, I've tried 2 times already, I'm just going to sling the balls in this time and let the player deal with it. It just doesn't happen. No matter how hard the ref tries there will be gaps.

Are you the type of player that relies on luck, CJ? Did luck get you where you are? No. Skill and hard work did.

Next you will be saying "No! You can't check if 2-9 combo is touching, that's not respectful to my opponent. Just give him a glance from across the room and shoot it with a TOI".

I understand your point, so check the rack, it makes no difference to me.

The solution to the racking issues in Professional Tournaments is to let the Referees rack and the players must break them as they are....if they want to look at the rack it's their prerogative.....I'm only suggesting that the players shouldn't do that because it's tacky......if it gives them some kind of an edge then they can factor that in.

Go back and look at ALL the Mosconi Cup matches and show us an example of the players checking the rack and making the referee re rack......or simply show a match where the player went up and look for "gaps" in the rack......can anyone show an example of this behavior???

It's not always about what's legal and illegal, sometimes it's about class and tact.

"Just my opinion, I could be wrong" - Dennis Miller

 

[Neil]

Actually dealing cards and racking pool balls (for the Mosconi Cup) is virtually identical......

O.k., you've made it clear. You don't have a clue, and want no part of learning. To you, learning is akin to cheating. You just go ahead and keep on just banging at the break. That's kind of thinking is exactly why guys like you can't handle SVB. He STUDIES the break, you just whack at it.

 

[Pidge]

I understand your point, so check the rack, it makes no difference to me.

The solution to the racking issues in Professional Tournaments is to let the Referees rack and the players must break them as they are....if they want to look at the rack it's their prerogative.....I'm only suggesting that the players shouldn't do that because it's tacky......if it gives them some kind of an edge then they can factor that in.

Go back and look at ALL the Mosconi Cup matches and show us an example of the players checking the rack and making the referee re rack......or simply show a match where the player went up and look for "gaps" in the rack......can anyone show an example of this behavior???

It's not always about what's legal and illegal, sometimes it's about class and tact.

"Just my opinion, I could be wrong" - Dennis Miller

True, sometimes there are rule sets withing sports that aren't written, but are an agreement between participants out of respect for one another and the sport. Maybe this is the case in the Mosconi Cup.

I think this year it is a must to inspect the rack because of the break box. It really limits what you can do on the break, and I've tried breaking from the proposed box and its tough going if you don't know how the rack lies. Its tough going anyway, but it helps to have an idea of what balls are likely to go down and go where.

I understand why they don't check the racks at the Mosconi Cup. It draws in lots of non-pool players and potential players more than any other pool tournament so new comers don't want to watch Daz staring gormlessly at a rack for 30 seconds only to have it re-racked. Likewise its very television friendly, and have to adhere to strict deadlines. All this being said, I'd still prefer to look over the rack.

 

[HawaiianEye]

All this racking NONSENSE should have been pool's HISTORY by now!

Forget all the racks and suspected cheating...USE THE MAGIC RACK and GET OVER IT!!!

I don't know why everybody is trying to get some sort of "advantage" over another player. I think the Magic Rack is about as fair as it gets. Everybody gets pretty much IDENTICAL racks and the balls react similarly if hitten in the same manner (speed, English, angle, etc.). If one guy like SVB or Corey spends HOURS and HOURS and figures the break out and beats your ass, then I would suggest you put in the time to learn to break like he has.

 

[Johnnyt]

With all the B/S and time wasted racking 9 ball at the pro level the MR should be used and alternate break be used. Then the next thing is they will be *****ing about the way the other guy lags for the first break. Johnnyt