TOI vs TOO - CJ vs Mike Sigel

[Colin Colenso]

I have noticed this tendency to the left and right. As a right hander, I've been undercutting shots to the right for some reason and overcutting to the left. I always thought it should be the opposite.
Mike

Mike,
That can be a symptom of having a dominant left eye. It can help if you get that left eye over the cue more... i.e. Get your head further to the right when you're aiming the shot. Try that and see if your perception evens out a bit.

 

[CJ Wiley]

This is a very effective technique that is essential to shotmaking,

It's interesting you mention the idea of overcutting and undercutting as I have noticed this tendency to the left and right. As a right hander, I've been undercutting shots to the right for some reason and overcutting to the left. I always thought it should be the opposite.

I'll definitely take a long, hard look at this. Sounds like it may just work. Thanks, CJ.

Best,
Mike

Yes, Mike, we all have certain shots that give us trouble. The way to "fix" this is to adjust your feet position, and not your upper body or hand position (relative to the line of the shot) to get the desired effect. I can actually hit different sides of the pocket on 8' shots by simply shifting my left foot slightly.....this is why proper stance is SO important in ways that many players would never think of...but the champions do, you can rest assured, and that's one of the reasons they are so consistent in shot making.

This allows you to maintain a consistent body alignment with your upper body while shifting slightly at your foundation (your feet positioning).

This is a very effective technique that is essential to shotmaking, especially long shots, and shots off the end rail. Try it and you'll quickly see how effective it can be.

Play Well, the game is our teacher.

 

[Mikjary]

Yes, Mike, we all have certain shots that give us trouble. The way to "fix" this is to adjust your feet position, and not your upper body or hand position (relative to the line of the shot) to get the desired effect. I can actually hit different sides of the pocket on 8' shots by simply shifting my left foot slightly.....this is why proper stance is SO important in ways that many players would never think of...but the champions do, you can rest assured, and that's one of the reasons they are so consistent in shot making.

This allows you to maintain a consistent body alignment with your upper body while shifting slightly at your foundation (your feet positioning).

This is a very effective technique that is essential to shotmaking, especially long shots, and shots off the end rail. Try it and you'll quickly see how effective it can be.

Play Well, the game is our teacher.

Years ago, George Michaels from Chicago told me something similar about front foot position. He said he could tell if he was lined up correctly by where his front foot pointed.

He also talked about putting it consistently left and right of the shot. If it was slightly left or right of his normal position, his head would be not over the cue to see the shot right. He started out our set by getting up and down quite a bit and I figured he was either nervous or Ed Norton was his idol. As his stroke got looser, he didn't do it as much. I mentioned it after we played and he told me about his front foot.

I saw him on a stream a year or two ago and he still does the same thing!

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'm not sure why were were put on this earth, but I'm certain it's not just pool

Years ago, George Michaels from Chicago told me something similar about front foot position. He said he could tell if he was lined up correctly by where his front foot pointed.

He also talked about putting it consistently left and right of the shot. If it was slightly left or right of his normal position, his head would be not over the cue to see the shot right. He started out our set by getting up and down quite a bit and I figured he was either nervous or Ed Norton was his idol. As his stroke got looser, he didn't do it as much. I mentioned it after we played and he told me about his front foot.

I saw him on a stream a year or two ago and he still does the same thing!

Best,
Mike

I've played George on a few occasions, and he was always a tough competitor.

Many players go through years without "real eyesing" that the left side of the body is JUST as important as the right side to play great pool. I have a feeling that many players have "off" days because they are "accidentally" putting the left side of their body in a different position than usual. This comes from not understanding how to set that side of the body properly.

The ONLY way to set the left side (of your body) consistently is to be aware of the left foot relative to the "line of the shot".......the foundation of a house is critical to the entire structure, and so is the feet position to the "pool playing structure".

The player that puts his feet "where they are comfortable" will not ever reach the highest level of his capability. Again, if we were "made to play pool" this may be different...but it's not.....and we're not - I'm not sure why were were put on this earth, but I'm certain it's not primarily to play pool.

I've beaten a LOT of players and given up tremendous handicaps because of this information....."make it yours," and you'll reap the benefits many times over. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Mikjary]

I'll try it for a couple of weeks and see how it affects my alignment. I may have been resisting mentally because of the comfort factor.

If we were put here to play pool, we'd have a head, shoulder, elbow and wrist we could lock into place, and be a Cyclops. :grin-square:



Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pool Shark

I'll try it for a couple of weeks and see how it affects my alignment. I may have been resisting mentally because of the comfort factor.

If we were put here to play pool, we'd have a head, shoulder, elbow and wrist we could lock into place, and be a Cyclops. :grin-square:

View attachment 308739

Best,
Mike

LoL - yes, talk about a "pool shark".

 

[Chrippa]

So much good info has been put here and I really would like everyone to try it out. Forget the why´s, the don't´s, how´s etc and please just shoot with it a while.

If you give it a honest run, just like a child with a open mind you will most probably see that you have gained some new knowledge imo.

One very good CM that I talked about this about said when I asked him about it - "Christian I have shot like this for ages, when I was taught this the old timers described it a bit different though - "hit them heavy". Like that.

There is many things that you will see when you are doing this, one thing that I "feel" that I have is a better/wider margin of error, you will get the cue ball on a string and really learn to kill the cb, you will most probably be amazed on some shots.
But in the end it´s like everything - you have to train and when you see it more and more, you believe more and more and "seeing is believing".

put the "winning" attitude on a shelf for a time and try it out, you will miss a lot in the beginning but that´s just a result to grow from. You need to fall to stand up.

When you have it it´s like you are more "zoomed" in on the shots, the zone - well that´s not so often we are there but this is a very good way to get there.

Thanks again CJ for the info you have you have shared and are sharing.

Regards

Chrippa

Ps it´s great for banking as well, and if I played snooker I would use it also.

 

[Island Drive]

Feet are Everything

It's nice seeing you Short guys talking about the positioning of your feet. Being sixSix I'm only too aware of its IMPORTANCE. When my approach is off slightly, its a whole different ''Off Slightly'' than someone a foot shorter in height. But in rotation games, reach can be a Big advantage, and having longer swingin' arms doesn't hurt when your trying to move a cue ball around on a wet, dirty non directional cloth.

 

[irock]

CJ, do you think, pointing your front foot toward the pocket you are shooting at, as posted before on AZ, works well? I have done it, and it seems to work well. If anyone has not tried this, and gives it a try, I found on banks, you have to point your foot to the pocket opposite of the one you are banking to.

 

[Colin Colenso]

CJ, do you think, pointing your front foot toward the pocket you are shooting at, as posted before on AZ, works well? I have done it, and it seems to work well. If anyone has not tried this, and gives it a try, I found on banks, you have to point your foot to the pocket opposite of the one you are banking to.

I would like to see a photo of you cross banking!

 

[West Point 1987]

So much good info has been put here and I really would like everyone to try it out. Forget the why´s, the don't´s, how´s etc and please just shoot with it a while.

If you give it a honest run, just like a child with a open mind you will most probably see that you have gained some new knowledge imo.

One very good CM that I talked about this about said when I asked him about it - "Christian I have shot like this for ages, when I was taught this the old timers described it a bit different though - "hit them heavy". Like that.

There is many things that you will see when you are doing this, one thing that I "feel" that I have is a better/wider margin of error, you will get the cue ball on a string and really learn to kill the cb, you will most probably be amazed on some shots.
But in the end it´s like everything - you have to train and when you see it more and more, you believe more and more and "seeing is believing".

put the "winning" attitude on a shelf for a time and try it out, you will miss a lot in the beginning but that´s just a result to grow from. You need to fall to stand up.

When you have it it´s like you are more "zoomed" in on the shots, the zone - well that´s not so often we are there but this is a very good way to get there.

Thanks again CJ for the info you have you have shared and are sharing.

Regards

Chrippa

Ps it´s great for banking as well, and if I played snooker I would use it also.

This is nearly a perfect description. The OP's point about it being the same as TOO is correct to a point. It seems most players learn how to use the outside of the CB and get comfortable with it. It becomes their default. Two completely different things are happening, though, and the point is lost in comparing them. Making the inside of the CB is a good default, and has the advantage of not letting the CB run away from you coming off the rail. You "muscle" the CB around, flattening the post collision path off the OB, killing the CB's tendency to run. If you think about it as stunning the CB on every (well, most) shot, you're in the ball park. It's also like trying to shoot a stop shot on a small 5 degree cut...the way you address the ball is a little inside to keep the CB from running too far away from the point of collision. You end up with a dead, floating, non-spinning CB after contact that you can predict/control despite the conditions of the table. It takes some time to recalibrate your alignment a little to line it all up, but when it clicks you wonder why you weren't doing this all along. What you'll notice is a firm pocket strike with the OB, and a CB that moves only as fast as it needs to to creep into position. Since I've been doing this, I've watched other players closely and noticed something I hadn't seen before...pay attention to the difference in energy between the CB and OB after contact. Some players hit the OB in a way that the OB and CB have about the same post collision energy, moving the same speed. Others have more energy on the OB, with the CB moving much slower after contact than the OB. It's really beautiful to watch, and more strong players than you'd think use this or a variant of it.

 

[Island Drive]

I look at it this way, if you can shoot the cue ball off the foot spot to the head middle diamond and the cue ball comes back exactly in the middle of the tip, you might be on to something. Understanding the relationship of ones body position to creating a perfect pendulum is Always the ''task at hand''. As always, step into the Spin.

 

[CJ Wiley]

.then "their wheel falls off" because they failed to recognize this pattern

CJ, do you think, pointing your front foot toward the pocket you are shooting at, as posted before on AZ, works well? I have done it, and it seems to work well. If anyone has not tried this, and gives it a try, I found on banks, you have to point your foot to the pocket opposite of the one you are banking to.

No, I don't recommend this at all. The primary target is the Cue Ball and the "Alignment Target" is the object ball.....we must connect the Cue Ball to the Object Ball to create the angle needed.....the pocket doesn't have anything to do with this particular process.

Where I target the pocket is changed by opening or closing my left foot slightly, however it's a result of altering where I'm contacting the Object Ball......I do visually watch which part of the pocket the Object Ball is contacting to give me feedback on whether to adjust my TOI/Speed or not......

I ONLY accept (without making any adjustments) contacting the center of the pocket unless intentionally "cheating" the pocket on one side or the other. If I don't contact the CENTER of the pocket I'll make a slight adjustment on the very next shot.

I treat ALL shots like they're the same, so if I undercut one shot I will take it for granted that the next one will undercut as well (especially if the cut is in the same direction). A player that fails to make these adjustments will sometimes start missing the pocket on a certain side without "real eyesing" it and before long they will actually start missing......then "their wheel falls off" because they failed to recognize this pattern many shots ago (perhaps). 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[liakos]

No, I don't recommend this at all. The primary target is the Cue Ball and the "Alignment Target" is the object ball.....we must connect the Cue Ball to the Object Ball to create the angle needed.....the pocket doesn't have anything to do with this particular process.

Where I target the pocket is changed by opening or closing my left foot slightly, however it's a result of altering where I'm contacting the Object Ball......I do visually watch which part of the pocket the Object Ball is contacting to give me feedback on whether to adjust my TOI/Speed or not......

I ONLY accept (without making any adjustments) contacting the center of the pocket unless intentionally "cheating" the pocket on one side or the other. If I don't contact the CENTER of the pocket I'll make a slight adjustment on the very next shot.

I treat ALL shots like they're the same, so if I undercut one shot I will take it for granted that the next one will undercut as well (especially if the cut is in the same direction). A player that fails to make these adjustments will sometimes start missing the pocket on a certain side without "real eyesing" it and before long they will actually start missing......then "their wheel falls off" because they failed to recognize this pattern many shots ago (perhaps). 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ, here is a question that I have been trying to figure out! If I take a mid table straight shot, not easy, say 6ft between cb and ob, and its perfectly straight, if I take that same shot 10 times and I get a perfect stop shot at least 9 out of 10, can I consider my stroke straight? Can I still have "major" fundamental issues? Or can I say I have a straight stroke?

 

[CJ Wiley]

great hand/eye coordination "CAN" prevent a player from addressing fundamental issues

CJ, here is a question that I have been trying to figure out! If I take a mid table straight shot, not easy, say 6ft between cb and ob, and its perfectly straight, if I take that same shot 10 times and I get a perfect stop shot at least 9 out of 10, can I consider my stroke straight? Can I still have "major" fundamental issues? Or can I say I have a straight stroke?

You still could have fundamental issues, although probably not "major".

I have that problem on the driving range playing golf.....I hit the ball too straight and it's actually been a hindrance to my improvement in golf.

Hank Haney said I hit the golf ball "straighter than anyone I've ever seen with an incorrect swing"... great hand/eye coordination "CAN" prevent a player from addressing fundamental issues.

The FEET are the most important thing to check out. Do you set up your feet the same every time (relative to the line of the shot) or don't you? This is a very important question to ask yourself.....and be completely honest, do you know where your left foot is compared to the "line of the shot"?

This is the tell tail question and answer to make a sincere effort to reach the next level of you development.....and only the champion caliber players can answer "yes" in most cases. 'The Game is the Teacher'