Pushout Or Shoot?

[Old Nine Baller]

I thought I'd take the opportunity to use the layout from the other thread to make a point about two-foul 9-Ball.

If you were playing two-foul and had this shot, with no fouls on either player, you would shoot and never play safe. Reason being that if you play safe or pushout you may not shoot again, certainly not at a shot this good.

This is just another thing that's wrong with one-foul 9-Ball: Guys wanting to play safe when they should be wanting to shoot.

If you wanted to see what your opponent would do you could always just pushout about 1/4" further away from the 4 ball. That doesn't sound too bright though, does it? Possibly turn over the table to your opponent and you may not shoot again.

The bottom line to me is this, if you are playing an equal player or an even game, you must shoot the 4 to make it.

Just my opinion.

ONB

 

[BeiberLvr]

No offense, but this is a horrible example for your case.

You could poll 100 of the best players around the world on whether they would shoot or play safe, and I would be extremely surprised if a single person opted to play safe.

 

[Mikjary]

I think the OP's premise is correct. You have to want to shoot the shot to win. Playing safe should be a last resort. It's a completely different mindset than today's rules.

Best,
Mike

 

[Black-Balled]

On what fkucking planet should it be permitted for one to NOT shoot from there?

 

[Mikjary]

On what fkucking planet should it be permitted for one to NOT shoot from there?

Only on Uranus...(insert punch line here).

Best,
Mike

 

[Jimbojim]

I'd try the thin cut in the side here

 

[Old Nine Baller]

No offense, but this is a horrible example for your case.

You could poll 100 of the best players around the world on whether they would shoot or play safe, and I would be extremely surprised if a single person opted to play safe.

This is pretty much what I said. If in an even game or evenly matched game you must shoot. Doesn't matter if it's a top player or not as most of us aren't top players.

ONB

 

[BeiberLvr]

This is pretty much what I said. If in an even game or evenly matched game you must shoot. Doesn't matter if it's a top player or not as most of us aren't top players.

ONB

The example you provided is bad because there is really only one option, and that is to shoot the 4 ball.

Your argument is sound, but the example shot you provided in no way supports your argument. That's all I was saying.

A better example is diagrammed below. Now if you polled the top 100 players today, the majority would opt to play safe, even if it's just to leave distance. However, change the rules to push out, and the choice drastically changes in favor of shooting.

 

[3andstop]

From the overhead shot, this doesn't even look like a difficult shot to the side pocket, comes up all the time in straight pool, angles like this, and I'm old - blind - fat - (well I think I'm cuddly) I can't imagine any laser eyed youngster pass this shot up. :shrug:

 

[alstl]

I would cut the 4 in the side and run out.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

The example you provided is bad because there is really only one option, and that is to shoot the 4 ball.

Your argument is sound, but the example shot you provided in no way supports your argument. That's all I was saying.

A better example is diagrammed below. Now if you polled the top 100 players today, the majority would opt to play safe, even if it's just to leave distance. However, change the rules to push out, and the choice drastically changes in favor of shooting.

Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been but I was trying to show the guys who said they'd play a safety in the other thread that if they were playing two-foul they would never even consider a safety. That was my point which I apparently failed to make clear. The layout was perfect for this.

The layout you propose is not. First of all, I don't care what the "top 100 players" would do. I'm not talking to them. In the example you show I can see many reasons to pushout when playing two-foul and no reasons to play a safety playing one-foul.

I guess we see things differently.

ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

The example you provided is bad because there is really only one option, and that is to shoot the 4 ball.

This is 100% wrong. There are at the very least two reasons to pushout from there, depending on the game being played, the score in the set, and the bet.

These are some of the psychological "back & forths" that come into play when playing two-foul.

P.S. Have you ever played two-foul 9-Ball?

ONB

 

[BeiberLvr]

This is 100% wrong. There are at the very least two reasons to pushout from there, depending on the game being played, the score in the set, and the bet.

These are some of the psychological "back & forths" that come into play when playing two-foul.

P.S. Have you ever played two-foul 9-Ball?

ONB

I have.

And pushing out is practically the same as playing safe in the sense that you do either one when you don't like the shot you're presented with.

I'm pretty sure the people that brought up playing safe in the shot you diagrammed just wanted to discuss other options, even though playing safe would in reality never enter any good player's mind.

If anyone actually were to play safe (one foul) or push (two foul) on that shot, then it's safe to assume they don't like to win.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

However, change the rules to push out, and the choice drastically changes in favor of shooting.

I have.

And pushing out is practically the same as playing safe in the sense that you do either one when you don't like the shot you're presented with. Agreed, with several exceptions.

I'm pretty sure the people that brought up playing safe in the shot you diagrammed just wanted to discuss other options, even though playing safe would in reality never enter any good player's mind.They can speak for themselves, that's why I started this thread.

If anyone actually were to play safe (one foul) or push (two foul) on that shot, then it's safe to assume they don't like to win.Agreed, with several exceptions.

In the layout you posted above you say the "choice drastically changes in favor of shooting" if playing two-foul.

I never knew too many guys who would shoot from there when they could pushout to a better but still tough shot.

How would you shoot the 7 ball if playing two-foul?

ONB

 

[CreeDo]

I see your point, but I think others are right, you picked an example
where everyone shoots anyway. But let me ask you this...

I know a lot of people talk about how much deeper 2-foul is, but it seems to me
that it reduces choices in many cases, rather than increasing choices.

A safe is at least plausible (for us non-pros) in the layout from the first post.
But in 2-foul it's apparently automatic... You shoot at this all day, every day. Because you will never get a better shot.

So some situations you'd spend time thinking about are reduced to "no-brainers".

 

[BeiberLvr]

In the layout you posted above you say the "choice drastically changes in favor of shooting" if playing two-foul.

I never knew too many guys who would shoot from there when they could pushout to a better but still tough shot.

How would you shoot the 7 ball if playing two-foul?

ONB

Bank the 7. Shape is natural.

Better question is where would you push that would make it easier and your opponent would pass?

 

[Old Nine Baller]

I see your point, but I think others are right, you picked an example
where everyone shoots anyway. But let me ask you this...

I know a lot of people talk about how much deeper 2-foul is, but it seems to me
that it reduces choices in many cases, rather than increasing choices.

A safe is at least plausible (for us non-pros) in the layout from the first post.
But in 2-foul it's apparently automatic... You shoot at this all day, every day. Because you will never get a better shot.

So some situations you'd spend time thinking about are reduced to "no-brainers".

#1. "everyone" does not shoot anyway. Some people in the other thread said they'd play a safety.

#2. Not trying to be a wiseguy here but who says you should get a lot of choices in a game where you must hit the lowest numbered ball first? It's the same for you as for your opponent anyway.

#3. It's not necessarily "automatic" that you shoot he 4 ball playing two-foul but in most cases you would shoot it. What's wrong with that? You are playing a "shooting" game.

#4. The situations you'd spend time thinking about when playing one-foul are quite often reduced or eliminated when playing two-foul. What's wrong with that?

One point that nobody made is that the shooter in the other thread was under pressure from a "shot-clock" that actually started ringing just as he stroked the 4 ball into the endrail. He didn't have time to think about it.

ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Bank the 7. Shape is natural.

Better question is where would you push that would make it easier and your opponent would pass?

Bear in mind that I am talking about playing an even game for money. No weight involved. My response may also change all depending on whether or not we are playing by the game or by the set. If "by the set" the score in the set may come into play.

If I was playing a right-handed player who couldn't shoot left-handed (I'm right-handed) I would push here (and have done so many times):




If I was playing a right-handed player who could shoot left-handed I would push here:




Now I have a question for you: How many games do you think you could win from here by shooting the 7 ball straight-back? It's a tough shot and the cueball is not going to come all the way uptable near the 8 if you miss. Why wouldn't you pushout to a spot where you figure I won't shoot but still make it easier on yourself?

ONB

 

[Mikjary]

Bear in mind that I am talking about playing an even game for money. No weight involved. My response may also change all depending on whether or not we are playing by the game or by the set. If "by the set" the score in the set may come into play.

If I was playing a right-handed player who couldn't shoot left-handed (I'm right-handed) I would push here (and have done so many times):

View attachment 309952


If I was playing a right-handed player who could shoot left-handed I would push here:


View attachment 309953

Now I have a question for you: How many games do you think you could win from here by shooting the 7 ball straight-back? It's a tough shot and the cueball is not going to come all the way uptable near the 8 if you miss. Why wouldn't you pushout to a spot where you figure I won't shoot but still make it easier on yourself?

ONB

I'd shoot the first example and park the cue ball next to the nine ball. I'd leave the seven ball on the short rail. The second push I'd pass back.

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

In 'Two Shot Shoot Out' this is rarely the case

Bear in mind that I am talking about playing an even game for money. No weight involved. My response may also change all depending on whether or not we are playing by the game or by the set. If "by the set" the score in the set may come into play.

If I was playing a right-handed player who couldn't shoot left-handed (I'm right-handed) I would push here (and have done so many times):

View attachment 309952


If I was playing a right-handed player who could shoot left-handed I would push here:


View attachment 309953

Now I have a question for you: How many games do you think you could win from here by shooting the 7 ball straight-back? It's a tough shot and the cueball is not going to come all the way uptable near the 8 if you miss. Why wouldn't you pushout to a spot where you figure I won't shoot but still make it easier on yourself?

ONB

How can you ever figure the other player is not going to shoot? (this is a fatal mistake) In 'Two Shot Shoot Out' this is rarely the case and you will get "disciplined" severely for taking this approach by any advanced player. 'The Game is the Teacher'