Unethical Win at Swanee 2014

[BasementDweller]

As soon as you realize that your opponent has gotten the requisite games to win the only ethical honorable thing to do is Shake his hand and pack up your cues.

It's ridiculous that people will defend someone knowingly accepting a win they don't deserve.

This Attitude contributes to the negative image of our sport and to the degradation of society as a whole. Everyone should strive to be honorable in life and encourage it in others, not screw your neighbor for 25 dollars.

Jaden

No way!

If the issue was addressed earlier in the match I would most likely give the guy the rack. However, if he's sitting there on the hill and it is then discovered that HE should have marked another rack then there's no chance I'm giving him that rack. You have to earn the victory -- not back into it.

For many players there is more pressure associated with being on the hill and who's to say that he would have still managed to get out had he known what the score should have been.

To me, this is no different than my opponent complaining about a questionable hit earlier in the match that could have changed the score had it been called properly.

Now as far as sportmanship goes, I would have addressed the issue right after the break of the missed rack. I've done this several times. I imagine I've even screwed myself a time or two by asking my opponent if I had already moved my coin or bead.

Maybe it's just me -- but you gotta win that last rack.

 

[Jaden]

absolutely.

This sort of mistake happens all the time

Bottom line is, it's up to Greg to mark his games. Once he played out the set, it was a done deal. There was no "fair" to be had. I don't know what time this happened, but I played my last match at 1 am and I was so rummy after basically standing for 16 hours, I was bumping into walls.

(I usually notice if someone doesn't mark their game and will point it out to them, but it can easily be overlooked by both players)

You're right Chris but you and I both know that if we were playing each other and it was brought to either of our attention that the other failed to mark a game that we would acknowledge the loss and move on. It's the only right thing to do.

It's completely different if it's not brought up until after the match.

Jaden

 

[fast&loose designs]

if the players can override the refs or the td call makes no sense to me why even have them if the refs make a call even if its wrong the players have to stick to it period imo

If ref rules in favor of one player, but that player concedes his game to his opponent, it is allowed. If ref says "you win, due to rules", but that player feels his win is not earned, even if rules say it is, of course he can still concede. Any match can be conceded, it's called a forfeit.

 

[itsfroze]

------------------->duplicate post

 

[LAMas]

Didn't any of the sweaters notice the error early and mention it to Greg...or that's not cool.

If Greg had his gal manager, this wouldn't have happened.

 

[itsfroze]

Several things- one, you say they "matched up". Usually, this means that they were gambling after the tournament, but, I believe you meant that this happened during the tournament. The reason that matters, is because you very well might have two different rule sets going on.

So, assuming this was during the tournament, you have to abide by the rules of the tournament. We don't know just what those rules were. However, most rules state that you are responsible for marking up your games. And, if you don't mark it up, you lose the ability to mark it later. There are reasons for this, which I won't go into here.

So, how can you possibly say that it is unethical to follow the rules you agreed to play by?? Sorry, but there is too much thinking like that today- don't want to be held responsible for ones own actions. Rather than being held responsible for one actions, or in this case, lack of action, better to blame the opponent for being unethical than to blame oneself. In this case, both players did the right thing...they followed the rules.

The rules are there for a reason, who are you to say what rules you will and won't follow, and then call someone else unethical or unsportsmanlike for actually following the rules?? It is unethical and unsportsmanlike to NOT follow the rules.

Exactly, sorry but it seems to me the only one being unethical here is the original poster.
How can you act so self righteous on one hand and on the other hand call someone unethical
or unsportsmanlike for following the rules. I have to agree with Neil there does seem to be a lot
of this going on today .

 

[Jaden]

Greg probably did blame himself and he was honorable.

Several things- one, you say they "matched up". Usually, this means that they were gambling after the tournament, but, I believe you meant that this happened during the tournament. The reason that matters, is because you very well might have two different rule sets going on.

So, assuming this was during the tournament, you have to abide by the rules of the tournament. We don't know just what those rules were. However, most rules state that you are responsible for marking up your games. And, if you don't mark it up, you lose the ability to mark it later. There are reasons for this, which I won't go into here.

So, how can you possibly say that it is unethical to follow the rules you agreed to play by?? Sorry, but there is too much thinking like that today- don't want to be held responsible for ones own actions. Rather than being held responsible for one actions, or in this case, lack of action, better to blame the opponent for being unethical than to blame oneself. In this case, both players did the right thing...they followed the rules.

The rules are there for a reason, who are you to say what rules you will and won't follow, and then call someone else unethical or unsportsmanlike for actually following the rules?? It is unethical and unsportsmanlike to NOT follow the rules.

We're not talking about Greg's actions. Under the circumstances he did the honorable thing. He continued play. He shouldn't have had to.

If you want to talk about earning a win, you don't earn a win in an open tournament by taking a game on the wire which is basically what this amounts to.

Jaden

 

[Jaden]

ethics have nothing to do with following the rules.

************
Exactly, sorry but it seems to me the only one being unethical here is the original poster.
How can you act so self righteous on one hand and on the other hand call someone unethical
or unsportsmanlike for following the rules. I have to agree with Neil there does seem to be a lot
of this going on today .

Ethics are about doing what is right in the face of the rules not manipulating the rules to your advantage. There are many business men who follow all the rules that are considered unethical.

Jaden

 

[fast&loose designs]

Ethics are about doing what is right in the face of the rules not manipulating the rules to your advantage. There are many business men who follow all the rules that are considered unethical.

Jaden

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[itsfroze]

Ethics are about doing what is right in the face of the rules not manipulating the rules to your advantage. There are many business men who follow all the rules that are considered unethical.

Jaden

The tournament director ruled in Chris's favor, please.

 

[Neil]

You're right Chris but you and I both know that if we were playing each other and it was brought to either of our attention that the other failed to mark a game that we would acknowledge the loss and move on. It's the only right thing to do.

It's completely different if it's not brought up until after the match.

Jaden

I guess I just don't understand how you or anyone else can say tossing the rules out the window is the right thing to do?? Once you go down that slope, where does it stop? What rules are you willing to toss out, and what ones do you keep? Do you allow him to shoot the shot over because someone set off a flash camera in his eyes? Do you allow him to take the shot over because he stumbled on some loose carpet and his cue touched the cb, or do you take ball in hand?

Marking your own games, and losing them if you forget is just as much a part of the rules as any other rule. And, they are there for a reason. Just because you don't like the outcome of the rule doesn't mean you get to disregard it. In this case, both players should be commended for actually following the rules.

Now, if I am playing someone, and I notice that they didn't mark the game, I will bring it to their attention. However, if I become aware at a later time that they didn't mark a game, then the rules apply, and they don't get that game.

The only "honorable" thing to do, is to bring it to their attention right away if you notice it. After that, anything done outside the rules would be dishonorable, not honorable. You make a mistake, you pay the price for it. You don't get to say what mistakes you get to get away with making.

 

[Neil]

Ethics are about doing what is right in the face of the rules not manipulating the rules to your advantage. There are many business men who follow all the rules that are considered unethical.

Jaden

And yet, you fail to see that you are trying to manipulate the rules to ones advantage.

 

[12squared]

If it was brought up at 6-6, then he was aware of it.

As soon as he was aware of it, it was unethical of him to continue playing.

Jaden

I disagree. If Harada would have mentioned it to Chris that he forgot to move a bead and Chris then said "too late" and he knew about it, that would be unethical. Not the way it was described; although it would have been really nice of Chris to say something to Harada once he learned of it, but I do not feel it's an ethics issue.

I did not see the stream nor do I know any of the players, but if what I read in the first few posts were true (Harada new of his mistake after he took his break while at 6-6), it's on him for not saying anything.

Dave

 

[DRW]

We can as a society request and even require that people act honorably. 200 years ago someone taking a win like that could have ended in a fuel and someone s death.

I'm not saying we should take it that far today but I am saying that not standing against this type of behavior contributed to the degradation of society and negatively affeCt the sport we love.

Jaden

I think you meant Duel, not fuel.:smile:

 

[Jaden]

that's the weakest argument I've ever seen.

The tournament director ruled in Chris's favor, please.

Again you're arguing the rules when we're talking about ethics. It was not ethical or honorable for Chris to accept the win; however it was within the rules.

You keep telling yourself that it'sethical and honorable to accept a win under the rules when in actuality your opponent beat you.

Jaden

 

[takeitdown]

If it was brought up at 6-6, then he was aware of it.

As soon as he was aware of it, it was unethical of him to continue playing.

Jaden

But did the kid really know he missed marking a game?
Of course if an opponent forgets a bead and convinves me so, i give it up. The opponent has to be able to recall the winning shot to my satisfaction.
If the opponent wants to enlist spectators opinions its up to me to allow it. This too canbe risky. Had half a room swear to one thing and the other the opposite.
Ultimately its up to the players to try and be honorable. That is if they care to be, honor seems to be optional in the pool world.

 

[Jaden]

Yeah

I think you meant Duel, not fuel.:smile:

Stupid auto correct. That would probably be worse though to fuel to the death.

Jaden

 

[Jaden]

I agree with you here.

But did the kid really know he missed marking a game?
Of course if an opponent forgets a bead and convinves me so, i give it up. The opponent has to be able to recall the winning shot to my satisfaction.
If the opponent wants to enlist spectators opinions its up to me to allow it. This too canbe risky. Had half a room swear to one thing and the other the opposite.
Ultimately its up to the players to try and be honorable. That is if they care to be, honor seems to be optional in the pool world.

I agree. You have to be there to see what the situation was. I believe this match was on table 6 Right in front of the bleachers and being filmed. There shouldn't have been a question on the actuality of the score one it was brought up.

Jaden

 

[hang-the-9]

As soon as you realize that your opponent has gotten the requisite games to win the only ethical honorable thing to do is Shake his hand and pack up your cues.

It's ridiculous that people will defend someone knowingly accepting a win they don't deserve.

This Attitude contributes to the negative image of our sport and to the degradation of society as a whole. Everyone should strive to be honorable in life and encourage it in others, not screw your neighbor for 25 dollars.

Jaden

It's called following the rules. While it's nice to correct someone's mistakes, it's by no means bad if you don't. It's not a game for fun, it's in a tournament match with a money payout. If I was goofing around in a league game and someone was shooting the wrong ball, I'll stop them. If we're playing for a stop in a nationals trip worth a few grand, make sure you pay attention to your own game.

 

[Neil]

Again you're arguing the rules when we're talking about ethics. It was not ethical or honorable for Chris to accept the win; however it was within the rules.

You keep telling yourself that it'sethical and honorable to accept a win under the rules when in actuality your opponent beat you.

Jaden

So, if we are playing sets, two out of three sets for the win. And you win the first set 7-6, I win the second set 7-0, and you win the third set 7-6, you would concede and give me the win because I actually beat you in games 19-14 and not worry about that pesky little rule of 2 out of 3 sets, right?

Does it suck that Greg lost like that? Sure it does, but that doens't automatically make it unethical. He lost because he made a mistake. Just like any other mistake he might make, he paid the penalty for it.

I suppose you also think it is unethical for a policeman to write a ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign because you slowed way down, made a rolling stop and proceeded when you saw it was clear to do so? After all, you did look both ways, just didn't quite stop like you were supposed to.