Unethical Win at Swanee 2014

[itsfroze]

I would allow my opponent, if he told me "hey I forgot to mark up last game
and I knew that was correct to mark it up. The rules need to be followed beyond that.

This is one of those arguments where no matter what the OP'er and the people
who side with him, will see it their way. No matter what logical arguments are made
to the contrary. They will always think they hold the moral high ground.

Even though the wording of the OP has nothing to do with morality but only to do with getting the answer the original poster wanted, it's comical almost. That they can't see this.

 

[Jaden]

I didn't say it's bad.

It's called following the rules. While it's nice to correct someone's mistakes, it's by no means bad if you don't. It's not a game for fun, it's in a tournament match with a money payout. If I was goofing around in a league game and someone was shooting the wrong ball, I'll stop them. If we're playing for a stop in a nationals trip worth a few grand, make sure you pay attention to your own game.

I said it was unethical to accept a win when your opponent has already won the requisite number of games and you are aware of it.

Here's another illustration.

You tap the cue ball with your stick and your opponent doesn't see and you continue to run out and win. It was within the rules because he didn't call the foul and its his responsibilityto call the fouls. It's still unethical as is accepting a win you didn't earn.

Jaden

 

[cuesblues]

I live in Columbia Missouri. In 1990 Missouri lost a football game to Colorado in what has become known as the 5th down game - at the end of the game the officials messed up and gave Colorado a 5th down on which they scored the winning touchdown.

I don't blame the officials or Colorado. I blame the Missouri coaches.

In an ideal world everything would work perfectly and if you forget to move your bead someone would help you out but in reality if you mess up you are responsible. It is a stretch to blame the opponent for that.

The 5th down game is why the UPI coaches poll had Georgia Tech No. 1 & Colorado No. 2.
The AP had Colorado No. 1
The scorekeeping problem does happen once and a while in tournaments, but you never see a 5th down in football at any level.

The opponent here was just a kid so no harm by him, and it would of been weird for the CU coaches to come running out on the field
yelling for their players to give up the ball.
Once the match has moved-on it's typically too late, except one time I replayed a match that I won, because apparently I should of
given the guy a 2-game spot, and I only gave him one game.
Not my fault, and I was in the middle of another match by the time they caught it.

 

[genomachino]

Shou;d be just like poker..........

This year's Jay Swanson Memorial tournament was as great as any of the past annual events - many top pros and amateurs from all over the country (192 of them) competing at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA. Congratulations to Dennis Orcullo for his 11-5 victory over Mika Immonen (who was in the hotseat), along with other top finishers Carlo Biado, Oscar Dominguez, John Morra, and others.

In a 2nd day match, on the TV table, a young 16 year old by the name of Chris Robinson - I believe from California -, who had been playing strong through the field, matched up against local amateur Greg Herada. The match was close, and somewhere around 5-5 (in a race to 7), it was brought to the attention of the commentary booth by a known spectator, that Greg was actually at 6, and had forgotten to score a bead on his side early in the match.

This was later confirmed by several sources, including Pool-Trax, a 3rd party that provides stats on matches that are streamed, as well as Chris' mother, who - apparently - texted him either at the time of the mistake, or during a short break taken by Greg at 6-6 (bead score, not actual score). Either way, at 6-6, both players knew the situation.

When Greg returned from his break, no doubt having heard about his own mistake, did not bring up the matter with Chris, and instead continued his match, which he quickly lost.

Was this outcome ethical? Should Greg be punished for a mistake he made, which by TECHNICAL rules in the tournament, players need to mark their own scores? Or should Chris, having known about Greg's error, been more sportsmanlike and conceded the match when Greg reached 6 games on the beads (7 in total wins)? This could have been conceded even after the match was over, since both parties knew at that point what happened?

The two arguments are that

Yes, Chris should have used his best judgement and been a "gentleman", despite the rules. The rules are there because there cannot be a ref at every match, but players should conduct themselves professionally.
No, match should not be conceded, because it is Greg's own fault, and players should mark their games and are therefore responsible for those errors?

If the latter were true, isn't is fair to say that a player can mark up 2 games when he wins only 1 and if his opponent doesn't notice, then it's his own fault? It is a rule that is being taken advantage of here, and is exactly the kind of unsportsmanlike conduct that we should not be teaching players. Chris is only 16, and already is showing signs that he is leading himself down the wrong road.

This match will likely be uploaded soon by POVPool, and will be cited in this thread.

In poker the cards tell the story unless the players throws away the winning hand.

With players watching and commentators talking this should never happen because the game won is the record itself.

I had a player I knew foul when jumping over a ball. 30 people saw this but me because I didn't want to get in the way of the other players on both sides of our table.

I trusted this player to call a foul on himself and asked him if he got a good hit. His replay was yes.

This is one big black eye in pool. If I mark 2 games instead of one is that OK.

Exactly. Someone would sure say something about that and be calling you a big time cheat!

In golf you bump your ball and most players call the foul on themselves. In pool many players do also but the few that don't really mess up the integrity of the game.

Too bad this happened in front of so many people and players.

The win should read itself just like the cards........

 

[itsfroze]

Again you're arguing the rules when we're talking about ethics. It was not ethical or honorable for Chris to accept the win; however it was within the rules.

You keep telling yourself that it's ethical and honorable to accept a win under the rules when in actuality your opponent beat you.

Jaden

He beat somebody alright, but who he beat was himself by not putting up his score
in the first place, or at least telling me the next game "Hey remember I made the nine
over here like this" so I could say yes I remember go ahead and put a game up for yourself. Nice try though.

 

[ctyhntr]

People who engage in unethical behavior are pathological. Meaning, its a compulsive habit. I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't the first time, and it certainly isn't the last.

 

[NightLife]

Does anyone know what game was not marked up?
I have tried to find it but alas, nothing yet unless I missed it?
I'm wondering how far back in the match it was.

 

[mcsock]

Chris is a 16 year old kid. His mind was on his game and trying to win a match, not watching the other persons accounting of his wins. He did not know at the time there was a problem. I was there, I watched the full match, I know Chris, I will support him in this one.

 

[Jaden]

oh so now you're a mind reader?

Chris is a 16 year old kid. His mind was on his game and trying to win a match, not watching the other persons accounting of his wins. He did not know at the time there was a problem. I was there, I watched the full match, I know Chris, I will support him in this one.

I will not presume to know what is in his mind but I can say I always watch my opponent mark up his score.

Jaden

 

[8ballEinstein]

I'm going to guess that Chris would've been willing to forfeit the game but his advisors, and quite possible Greg, had told him to accept the victory.

I'll probably see Chris today and I'll find out for sure. Is anyone really interested in his answer, or should I let this debate run a while longer?

 

[itsfroze]

So, if we are playing sets, two out of three sets for the win. And you win the first set 7-6, I win the second set 7-0, and you win the third set 7-6, you would concede and give me the win because I actually beat you in games 19-15 and not worry about that pesky little rule of 2 out of 3 sets, right?

Does it suck that Greg lost like that? Sure it does, but that doens't automatically make it unethical. He lost because he made a mistake. Just like any other mistake he might make, he paid the penalty for it.

I suppose you also think it is unethical for a policeman to write a ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign because you slowed way down, made a rolling stop and proceeded when you saw it was clear to do so? After all, you did look both ways, just didn't quite stop like you were supposed to.

Funny how all the self righteous people failed to respond to this post !!!!!

 

[Cory in DC]

The case for not correcting the score after more than one game has passed is that you can't tell how the rest of the match would have played out. The top echelon play every rack with maximal focus and precision. The rest of us mortals suffer from lapses of intensity and focus, especially when we're ahead.

So if I think I'm up 6-4 going to 7 but I'm really only up 6-5, I'm more likely to be a little bit loose. There's a big difference, at least for me, between (1) "he needs 3 and I need 1, time to close it out" and (2) "if I lose this game then it's hill-hill and he's breaking, and I don't want that."

Cory

 

[Neil]

In poker the cards tell the story unless the players throws away the winning hand.

With players watching and commentators talking this should never happen because the game won is the record itself.

I had a player I knew foul when jumping over a ball. 30 people saw this but me because I didn't want to get in the way of the other players on both sides of our table.

I trusted this player to call a foul on himself and asked him if he got a good hit. His replay was yes.

This is one big black eye in pool. If I mark 2 games instead of one is that OK.

Exactly. Someone would sure say something about that and be calling you a big time cheat!

In golf you bump your ball and most players call the foul on themselves. In pool many players do also but the few that don't really mess up the integrity of the game.

Too bad this happened in front of so many people and players.

The win should read itself just like the cards........

So, let's sumarize what you just said- the rules state that if you forget to mark your game, you lose that game. You are not allowed to mark it up later. Your take, and a few others, is "screw what the rules say, we are going to make up our own rules, and anyone that doesn't abide by our new rules is unethical and/or a cheat."

At least now a lot of people know that when they play you guys, they can't go by the tournament rules, but have to ask you for a written list of what rules you are playing by.

If you hit the cb accidentally, other guy gets ball in hand. No problem, it's right there in the rules. But, that other rule, the one that says you lose your game win if you don't mark it up when you are supposed to, well....if you want to go by THAT rule....well, you're nothing more than a cheat and an unethical person and should be called on unsportsmanlike behaviour. Some of you really have some messed up thinking.

 

[Jaden]

actually knowing Greg...

I'm going to guess that Chris would've been willing to forfeit the game but his advisors, and quite possible Greg, had told him to accept the victory.

I'll probably see Chris today and I'll find out for sure. Is anyone really interested in his answer, or should I let this debate run a while longer?

Knowing Greg I would not doubt that he might insist they play out the last game. In that case I would ask him if he was sure and I would play it out. If that's the case here then it is understandable and ethical to do so. If Chris insisted they play it out or contested it then it is not ethical.

Jaden

 

[Neil]

The case for not correcting the score after more than one game has passed is that you can't tell how the rest of the match would have played out. The top echelon play every rack with maximal focus and precision. The rest of us mortals suffer from lapses of intensity and focus, especially when we're ahead.

So if I think I'm up 6-4 going to 7 but I'm really only up 6-5, I'm more likely to be a little bit loose. There's a big difference, at least for me, between (1) "he needs 3 and I need 1, time to close it out" and (2) "if I lose this game then it's hill-hill and he's breaking, and I don't want that."

Cory

Exactly. While it shouldn't make a difference, in reality, it makes a big difference in how one actually plays. Thus, changing the game.

 

[wahcheck]

how can one not know

I will not presume to know what is in his mind but I can say I always watch my opponent mark up his score.

Jaden

I have a hard time believing that both players do not know the score in a race to 7........whether a game is marked or not..........if my opponent forgets to mark his win, I surely would still know the score of the match, and so should he.......

 

[Jaden]

I honestly didn't realize I had missed a game.

I have a hard time believing that both players do not know the score in a race to 7........whether a game is marked or not..........if my opponent forgets to mark his win, I surely would still know the score of the match, and so should he.......

I was playing Dave hemmah while this match was being played and I had completely forgotten about one of my games. As soon as Dave realized I had forgotten to mark it up he reminded me.

There is so much stress at this level of play in a tourney like this it is easy to forget our to focus on the wrong things.

Jaden

P.s. as close as our match was it could easily have made all the difference.

 

[leto1776]

I was playing Dave hemmah while this match was being played and I had completely forgotten about one of my games. As soon as Dave realized I had forgotten to mark it up he reminded me.

There is so much stress at this level of play in a tourney like this it is easy to forget our to focus on the wrong things.

Jaden

P.s. as close as our match was it could easily have made all the difference.

and here we are talking about a 16 yr old kid dealing with this kind of pressure

 

[book collector]

After watching a million matches in tournaments, gambling, and just goofing around, I am amazed at how many people who play great pool , can never be bothered with keeping track of anything related to the game.
They always leave their balls in the tray playing one pocket, they forget to move the coin or bead playing nine ball, but somehow can always remember they won that many games.
Have some responsibility.
I'm never going to ask my opponent to give me credit for a game I won, but then forgot to put up.
It is a habit , lot's of people develope it , and if there is never any punishment, they will never stop.
When that happens , some unscrupulous people find ways to make an edge out of it .
Now you have gone from letting someone be lazy and always cleaning it up for them , to allowing someone to be cheated somewhere down the road , because these players have seen the scenarios before and their opponents have not.
I would hope the young man who forgot to mark his game, would take it as his mistake, and move on, and make sure it doesn't happen again.
I do not place any stigma or blame on his opponent, it was not his job to keep score for both of them!
If he has been around a while, I am sure this has happened to him before.

 

[takeitdown]

So, let's sumarize what you just said- the rules state that if you forget to mark your game, you lose that game. You are not allowed to mark it up later. Your take, and a few others, is "screw what the rules say, we are going to make up our own rules, and anyone that doesn't abide by our new rules is unethical and/or a cheat."

At least now a lot of people know that when they play you guys, they can't go by the tournament rules, but have to ask you for a written list of what rules you are playing by.

If you hit the cb accidentally, other guy gets ball in hand. No problem, it's right there in the rules. But, that other rule, the one that says you lose your game win if you don't mark it up when you are supposed to, well....if you want to go by THAT rule....well, you're nothing more than a cheat and an unethical person and should be called on unsportsmanlike behaviour. Some of you really have some messed up thinking.

Not trying to bust balls.

If I win a game, dont mark it. Then I break and lookup and its still 0-0, can I mark my win?
What if I notice half way through game 2 can I mark it then?

To me I would rather lose than play like that. I have people pull crap like that all the time. I then revert to rule #1.

RULE#1 Life is too short to play with assholes.