Unethical Win at Swanee 2014

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Chris Santana
Silver Member
This year's Jay Swanson Memorial tournament was as great as any of the past annual events - many top pros and amateurs from all over the country (192 of them) competing at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA. Congratulations to Dennis Orcullo for his 11-5 victory over Mika Immonen (who was in the hotseat), along with other top finishers Carlo Biado, Oscar Dominguez, John Morra, and others.

In a 2nd day match, on the TV table, a young 16 year old by the name of Chris Robinson - I believe from California -, who had been playing strong through the field, matched up against local amateur Greg Herada. The match was close, and somewhere around 5-5 (in a race to 7), it was brought to the attention of the commentary booth by a known spectator, that Greg was actually at 6, and had forgotten to score a bead on his side early in the match.

This was later confirmed by several sources, including Pool-Trax, a 3rd party that provides stats on matches that are streamed, as well as Chris' mother, who - apparently - texted him either at the time of the mistake, or during a short break taken by Greg at 6-6 (bead score, not actual score). Either way, at 6-6, both players knew the situation.

When Greg returned from his break, no doubt having heard about his own mistake, did not bring up the matter with Chris, and instead continued his match, which he quickly lost.

Was this outcome ethical? Should Greg be punished for a mistake he made, which by TECHNICAL rules in the tournament, players need to mark their own scores? Or should Chris, having known about Greg's error, been more sportsmanlike and conceded the match when Greg reached 6 games on the beads (7 in total wins)? This could have been conceded even after the match was over, since both parties knew at that point what happened?

The two arguments are that

Yes, Chris should have used his best judgement and been a "gentleman", despite the rules. The rules are there because there cannot be a ref at every match, but players should conduct themselves professionally.
No, match should not be conceded, because it is Greg's own fault, and players should mark their games and are therefore responsible for those errors?

If the latter were true, isn't is fair to say that a player can mark up 2 games when he wins only 1 and if his opponent doesn't notice, then it's his own fault? It is a rule that is being taken advantage of here, and is exactly the kind of unsportsmanlike conduct that we should not be teaching players. Chris is only 16, and already is showing signs that he is leading himself down the wrong road.

This match will likely be uploaded soon by POVPool, and will be cited in this thread.
 

TSW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Neither. This is the referee's call. If I'm playing in a match like that and there is a referee available (which must have been the case at a big tournament like the Swanee), I defer 100% to the referee and would have no bitterness about either decision.

If I'm the player who forgot to put up a game, I would admit the technical error but hope that, with sufficient evidence, I would get credit for the game.

If I'm the other player, I don't think it's my role to concede a match (that I thought was still being contested) solely due to my opponent's error.

The reason to have a referee is to take these kinds of difficult decisions out of the players' hands.

Edit: Even if there's no ref at each table, there has to be a tournament director in charge of enforcing the rules. It's the TD's call, period.

As to your last statement about marking up two games, that's unsportsmanlike conduct and should be punished appropriately. In the case at hand, there's no intent to deceive by either player.
 
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beetle

Do I bug you?
Silver Member
I agree that the person who actually won 7 games first should be the winner, but why didn't Greg go to the tourament director when he realized he forgot to mark a game? In my opinion, once he started another game, he gave up his right to pursue and correct this error.

And, since other people will argue this, Chris did nothing wrong here. Why would there be more burden on him to know Greg's score than Greg?

This year's Jay Swanson Memorial tournament was as great as any of the past annual events - many top pros and amateurs from all over the country (192 of them) competing at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA. Congratulations to Dennis Orcullo for his 11-5 victory over Mika Immonen (who was in the hotseat), along with other top finishers Carlo Biado, Oscar Dominguez, John Morra, and others.

In a 2nd day match, on the TV table, a young 16 year old by the name of Chris Robinson - I believe from California -, who had been playing strong through the field, matched up against local amateur Greg Herada. The match was close, and somewhere around 5-5 (in a race to 7), it was brought to the attention of the commentary booth by a known spectator, that Greg was actually at 6, and had forgotten to score a bead on his side early in the match.

This was later confirmed by several sources, including Pool-Trax, a 3rd party that provides stats on matches that are streamed, as well as Chris' mother, who - apparently - texted him either at the time of the mistake, or during a short break taken by Greg at 6-6 (bead score, not actual score). Either way, at 6-6, both players knew the situation.

When Greg returned from his break, no doubt having heard about his own mistake, did not bring up the matter with Chris, and instead continued his match, which he quickly lost.

Was this outcome ethical? Should Greg be punished for a mistake he made, which by TECHNICAL rules in the tournament, players need to mark their own scores? Or should Chris, having known about Greg's error, been more sportsmanlike and conceded the match when Greg reached 6 games on the beads (7 in total wins)? This could have been conceded even after the match was over, since both parties knew at that point what happened?

The two arguments are that

Yes, Chris should have used his best judgement and been a "gentleman", despite the rules. The rules are there because there cannot be a ref at every match, but players should conduct themselves professionally.
No, match should not be conceded, because it is Greg's own fault, and players should mark their games and are therefore responsible for those errors?

If the latter were true, isn't is fair to say that a player can mark up 2 games when he wins only 1 and if his opponent doesn't notice, then it's his own fault? It is a rule that is being taken advantage of here, and is exactly the kind of unsportsmanlike conduct that we should not be teaching players. Chris is only 16, and already is showing signs that he is leading himself down the wrong road.

This match will likely be uploaded soon by POVPool, and will be cited in this thread.
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This year's Jay Swanson Memorial tournament was as great as any of the past annual events - many top pros and amateurs from all over the country (192 of them) competing at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA. Congratulations to Dennis Orcullo for his 11-5 victory over Mika Immonen (who was in the hotseat), along with other top finishers Carlo Biado, Oscar Dominguez, John Morra, and others.

In a 2nd day match, on the TV table, a young 16 year old by the name of Chris Robinson - I believe from California -, who had been playing strong through the field, matched up against local amateur Greg Herada. The match was close, and somewhere around 5-5 (in a race to 7), it was brought to the attention of the commentary booth by a known spectator, that Greg was actually at 6, and had forgotten to score a bead on his side early in the match.

This was later confirmed by several sources, including Pool-Trax, a 3rd party that provides stats on matches that are streamed, as well as Chris' mother, who - apparently - texted him either at the time of the mistake, or during a short break taken by Greg at 6-6 (bead score, not actual score). Either way, at 6-6, both players knew the situation.

When Greg returned from his break, no doubt having heard about his own mistake, did not bring up the matter with Chris, and instead continued his match, which he quickly lost.

Was this outcome ethical? Should Greg be punished for a mistake he made, which by TECHNICAL rules in the tournament, players need to mark their own scores? Or should Chris, having known about Greg's error, been more sportsmanlike and conceded the match when Greg reached 6 games on the beads (7 in total wins)? This could have been conceded even after the match was over, since both parties knew at that point what happened?

The two arguments are that

Yes, Chris should have used his best judgement and been a "gentleman", despite the rules. The rules are there because there cannot be a ref at every match, but players should conduct themselves professionally.
No, match should not be conceded, because it is Greg's own fault, and players should mark their games and are therefore responsible for those errors?

If the latter were true, isn't is fair to say that a player can mark up 2 games when he wins only 1 and if his opponent doesn't notice, then it's his own fault? It is a rule that is being taken advantage of here, and is exactly the kind of unsportsmanlike conduct that we should not be teaching players. Chris is only 16, and already is showing signs that he is leading himself down the wrong road.

This match will likely be uploaded soon by POVPool, and will be cited in this thread.

I have done the same thing and never have asked to move the bead or coin to the right game

No its not the same i you move 2 beads at the same time one is cheating yourself the other is cheating your opponet


1
 

cueaddicts

AzB Gold Member
Silver Member
I don't think it was unethical. In watching it on the stream,it seems that neither player knew at the time what had happened, only after the fact and not immediately. What I heard was that the T.D. decided that since Greg played the last hill-hill game, he effectively gave up his right to contest the game count. Unusual and sad situation for sure, but unethical may be taking it a little far. Definitely a learning experience for both/all players....nothing really to debate either, imo.
 

TSW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And, since other people will argue this, Chris did nothing wrong here. Why would there be more burden on him to know Greg's score than Greg?

I agree with this. Chris did nothing wrong. His obligation is to be a fair competitor, not to be a self-sacrificing saint.
 

Jaden

Dun w/da bullshit 4awhile
Silver Member
sure there is something to debate.

We can as a society request and even require that people act honorably. 200 years ago someone taking a win like that could have ended in a fuel and someone s death.

I'm not saying we should take it that far today but I am saying that not standing against this type of behavior contributed to the degradation of society and negatively affeCt the sport we love.

Jaden
 

Jaden

Dun w/da bullshit 4awhile
Silver Member
of course it's unethical.

I don't think it was unethical. In watching it on the stream,it seems that neither player knew at the time what had happened, only after the fact and not immediately. What I heard was that the T.D. decided that since Greg played the last hill-hill game, he effectively gave up his right to contest the game count. Unusual and sad situation for sure, but unethical may be taking it a little far. Definitely a learning experience for both/all players....nothing really to debate either, imo.


As soon as you realize that your opponent has gotten the requisite games to win the only ethical honorable thing to do is Shake his hand and pack up your cues.

It's ridiculous that people will defend someone knowingly accepting a win they don't deserve.

This Attitude contributes to the negative image of our sport and to the degradation of society as a whole. Everyone should strive to be honorable in life and encourage it in others, not screw your neighbor for 25 dollars.

Jaden
 
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TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Gold Member
Silver Member
This year's Jay Swanson Memorial tournament was as great as any of the past annual events - many top pros and amateurs from all over the country (192 of them) competing at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA. Congratulations to Dennis Orcullo for his 11-5 victory over Mika Immonen (who was in the hotseat), along with other top finishers Carlo Biado, Oscar Dominguez, John Morra, and others.

In a 2nd day match, on the TV table, a young 16 year old by the name of Chris Robinson - I believe from California -, who had been playing strong through the field, matched up against local amateur Greg Herada. The match was close, and somewhere around 5-5 (in a race to 7), it was brought to the attention of the commentary booth by a known spectator, that Greg was actually at 6, and had forgotten to score a bead on his side early in the match.

This was later confirmed by several sources, including Pool-Trax, a 3rd party that provides stats on matches that are streamed, as well as Chris' mother, who - apparently - texted him either at the time of the mistake, or during a short break taken by Greg at 6-6 (bead score, not actual score). Either way, at 6-6, both players knew the situation.

When Greg returned from his break, no doubt having heard about his own mistake, did not bring up the matter with Chris, and instead continued his match, which he quickly lost.

Was this outcome ethical? Should Greg be punished for a mistake he made, which by TECHNICAL rules in the tournament, players need to mark their own scores? Or should Chris, having known about Greg's error, been more sportsmanlike and conceded the match when Greg reached 6 games on the beads (7 in total wins)? This could have been conceded even after the match was over, since both parties knew at that point what happened?

The two arguments are that

Yes, Chris should have used his best judgement and been a "gentleman", despite the rules. The rules are there because there cannot be a ref at every match, but players should conduct themselves professionally.
No, match should not be conceded, because it is Greg's own fault, and players should mark their games and are therefore responsible for those errors?

If the latter were true, isn't is fair to say that a player can mark up 2 games when he wins only 1 and if his opponent doesn't notice, then it's his own fault? It is a rule that is being taken advantage of here, and is exactly the kind of unsportsmanlike conduct that we should not be teaching players. Chris is only 16, and already is showing signs that he is leading himself down the wrong road.

This match will likely be uploaded soon by POVPool, and will be cited in this thread.

This sort of mistake happens all the time

Bottom line is, it's up to Greg to mark his games. Once he played out the set, it was a done deal. There was no "fair" to be had. I don't know what time this happened, but I played my last match at 1 am and I was so rummy after basically standing for 16 hours, I was bumping into walls.

(I usually notice if someone doesn't mark their game and will point it out to them, but it can easily be overlooked by both players)
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I live in Columbia Missouri. In 1990 Missouri lost a football game to Colorado in what has become known as the 5th down game - at the end of the game the officials messed up and gave Colorado a 5th down on which they scored the winning touchdown.

I don't blame the officials or Colorado. I blame the Missouri coaches.

In an ideal world everything would work perfectly and if you forget to move your bead someone would help you out but in reality if you mess up you are responsible. It is a stretch to blame the opponent for that.
 

leto1776

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Seems like the big problem is some people are saying Chris "knowingly allowed" it to happen, without proof he knew. Some have even gone so far as to call a 16 yr old kid a shithead on here. Really? C'mon people.

As for the OP, I can find agreements with both sides, but one of them is assuming Chris knew the actual score.

No, marking up your score by 2 would be cheating, and definite grounds for DQ.
 

itsfroze

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not Chris's fault and not his job to keep track of his opponents score.

I find it ironic that the original poster is calling Chris's morals into question.

When in their very own post they don't just ask a question, but ask a question
in a way and do everything they can to lean every ones answer in the direction
of their view.

I could be wrong however I think it's against the guidelines of the morality police
to ask a morality question in an immoral manner. :D
 

Jaden

Dun w/da bullshit 4awhile
Silver Member
if it was brought up at 6-6.

Seems like the big problem is some people are saying Chris "knowingly allowed" it to happen, without proof he knew. Some have even gone so far as to call a 16 yr old kid a shithead on here. Really? C'mon people.

As for the OP, I can find agreements with both sides, but one of them is assuming Chris knew the actual score.

No, marking up your score by 2 would be cheating, and definite grounds for DQ.

If it was brought up at 6-6, then he was aware of it.

As soon as he was aware of it, it was unethical of him to continue playing.

Jaden
 

fast&loose designs

Chris Santana
Silver Member
I live in Columbia Missouri. In 1990 Missouri lost a football game to Colorado in what has become known as the 5th down game - at the end of the game the officials messed up and gave Colorado a 5th down on which they scored the winning touchdown.

I don't blame the officials or Colorado. I blame the Missouri coaches.

In an ideal world everything would work perfectly and if you forget to move your bead someone would help you out but in reality if you mess up you are responsible. It is a stretch to blame the opponent for that.

I'm not suggesting the opponent should be blamed for Greg's mistake; I'm suggesting that he should have been the bigger man and taken a loss when he really DID lose. Regardless of the rules, regardless of the ref's call, regardless of Greg's indifference, he should have done the RIGHT thing.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Several things- one, you say they "matched up". Usually, this means that they were gambling after the tournament, but, I believe you meant that this happened during the tournament. The reason that matters, is because you very well might have two different rule sets going on.

So, assuming this was during the tournament, you have to abide by the rules of the tournament. We don't know just what those rules were. However, most rules state that you are responsible for marking up your games. And, if you don't mark it up, you lose the ability to mark it later. There are reasons for this, which I won't go into here.

So, how can you possibly say that it is unethical to follow the rules you agreed to play by?? Sorry, but there is too much thinking like that today- don't want to be held responsible for ones own actions. Rather than being held responsible for one actions, or in this case, lack of action, better to blame the opponent for being unethical than to blame oneself. In this case, both players did the right thing...they followed the rules.

The rules are there for a reason, who are you to say what rules you will and won't follow, and then call someone else unethical or unsportsmanlike for actually following the rules?? It is unethical and unsportsmanlike to NOT follow the rules.
 

fast&loose designs

Chris Santana
Silver Member
Seems like the big problem is some people are saying Chris "knowingly allowed" it to happen, without proof he knew. Some have even gone so far as to call a 16 yr old kid a shithead on here. Really? C'mon people.

As for the OP, I can find agreements with both sides, but one of them is assuming Chris knew the actual score.

No, marking up your score by 2 would be cheating, and definite grounds for DQ.

He did know, even if he learned of it AFTER the match ended, he still could have conceded.
 

Scratch~

Registered
I personally feel there are quite a few unethical actions that are involved with pool today. Not but just a few decades ago the idea of a "safe" was considered dirty pool. Scratch on the 8 = loss.
First time I saw a push I about lost my mind!
Ball in hand? C'mon ....

But they are in the rules now, there are rules ya know ... and some of the rules state that the players are responsible for their own score. If you screw up then it's your own fault. Take the honorable way out, bow your head, and accept you screwed up.

Like the kid appears to have done.

Next these guys will be wanting a do-over for easy shots they miss because of a miscue or something.
 

fERrELZ

Banned
As I see it, from the description available, Greg acted like a man and did the most honorable thing he could have.

Ultimately, without a ref, it is up the the individual player to track his own games. I would absolutely say that an honorable opponent should remind a player to mark their game, but either one can forget.

It is too bad that Greg lost like that, but even though I don't know the guy, I respect him for not making an issue out of his mistake.

Chris should have conceded, an honest man would, but at 16 he's not even a real person yet, he's a kid.

On the subject of the booth and a 'known' spectator interfering in the match...that guy should have been kicked out of the venue and the commentators should have been told to shut the hell up. There are exactly three people who should be saying anything to anybody at the table: The two opponents and a ref.
 

terryhanna

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not suggesting the opponent should be blamed for Greg's mistake; I'm suggesting that he should have been the bigger man and taken a loss when he really DID lose. Regardless of the rules, regardless of the ref's call, regardless of Greg's indifference, he should have done the RIGHT thing.
if the players can override the refs or the td call makes no sense to me why even have them if the refs make a call even if its wrong the players have to stick to it period imo
 
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