Rail spin effect due to side english - pool tables v snooker tables.

M

mamics

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A *very* small amount of side english on a pool ball seems to have a massive effect on the rebound angle off a rail on a pool table ?

eg. pic 1.

Is this effect more pronounced on pool tables than snooker tables ?
ie. Is this shot (pic 2.) just as easy or even possible on a snooker table as it is on a pool table ?

(I know - hard to compare apples with apples in this regard - snooker table has an extra 18 inches of cloth across the table plus different rails & cloth etc. Ball size variable as well.)

Thoughts / Comments ?
Thanx
Cheers.
 

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mamics said:
A *very* small amount of side english on a pool ball seems to have a massive effect on the rebound angle off a rail on a pool table ?
...
Click to expand...
I think the effect is nearly identical on both kinds of tables for a small amount of spin on the cue ball. Snooker tables around here generally have slipperier rails than the pool tables, and that means that large amounts of side may be less effective, but that can be true for a pool table with new cloth.

One other effect I've seen is that on a snooker table, if you are trying to kick softly off a far rail to get a hit and have to use side, the side will have largely worn off in comparison to the same shot on a pool table. I attribute that to the nap of snooker cloth.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think the effect is nearly identical on both kinds of tables for a small amount of spin on the cue ball. Snooker tables around here generally have slipperier rails than the pool tables, and that means that large amounts of side may be less effective, but that can be true for a pool table with new cloth.

One other effect I've seen is that on a snooker table, if you are trying to kick softly off a far rail to get a hit and have to use side, the side will have largely worn off in comparison to the same shot on a pool table. I attribute that to the nap of snooker cloth.
Click to expand...

And, you'll get a very slight masse effect as well, as the revolutions of the ball "grab" the fibers of the cloth, depending on whether you're going with the nap, or against it. (The same clockwise spin, for example, will produce a left-to-right masse effect when going with the nap head-end to foot-end of table; and will produce a right-to-left masse effect when going against the nap from foot-end to head-end of table.)

This can be seen with a lag-speed ball sent with spin down each direction of the table. Of course, with the speeds involved with banking, it's probably minimal effect, but important to keep in mind that the nap does have an effect on the path of a spinning ball.

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
And, you'll get a very slight masse effect as well, as the revolutions of the ball "grab" the fibers of the cloth, depending on whether you're going with the nap, or against it. ...
Click to expand...
There are some snooker authors who claim it is possible to get an s-curve with a snooker cue ball by shooting a swerve shot in the right direction on the cloth. First the swerve bends the ball one way and then the nap takes the ball the other way. I have not seen this so I do not yet believe it. I would pay good money to see someone go to the left of the blue and the right of the pink and hit the black from the cue ball on the brown spot. Or even with each of the blue and pink moved nearly a whole ball to make the shot easier.
 
Has anyone got a snooker table handy to try the "pic 2." 'trick shot' above ?

I never noticed rail spin like that happening in my past games of snooker (at the snooker club) when the OB is banked cross table off 2 rails. (usually un-intentionally of course)

Also - does the pic 2. trick shot work on a pool table for soft, medium & also hard paced attempts ?
(I'll try the 3 different speeds on my table when I get a chance - interested to know results on other tables as well ?)

Thanx
Cheers.
 
I find the effects of english on rebound angle off the rail to be pretty similar in snooker and in pool. Like others have said though, in snooker, for slow shots and over long distances, sidespin is often greatly reduced by the effects of the nap.

The S-curve is definitely possible and does happen from time to time, with the right spin and speed and shooting against the nap. It is very slight and almost unnoticeable unless you are the one shooting and have your chin on the cue, in which case you'll be able to see it quite clearly.
 
I don't play much pool but the shot shown on the cuetable diagram varies with the table mfg. In other words IMO a Gold Crown is harder to get that action or should I say that much action on the OB as other mfg. The ball doesn't seem to reverse as easily on GC's. The ball backs up on me. What's with that? Too hard? Too much spin? Too??
 
mamics...Yes that shot works on a pool table. You can bank the OB 1, 2 or 3 cushions, depending on which side pocket you wish the OB to end up in. I use the 3 rail shot all the time to demonstrate how just cutting the OB can induce english on the OB. It's much tougher on new cloth, which is very slick. It's interesting that the pro's own trick shot book says you have to put sidespin on the CB to make the shot. You don't...the cut induced spin is enough. I play the shot with a fair amount of pace on the CB. I learned it from the inventor of the shot...Willie Jopling (RIP).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

mamics said:
Has anyone got a snooker table handy to try the "pic 2." 'trick shot' above ?

Also - does the pic 2. trick shot work on a pool table for soft, medium & also hard paced attempts ?
(I'll try the 3 different speeds on my table when I get a chance - interested to know results on other tables as well ?)

Thanx
Cheers.
Click to expand...
 
mamics said:
does the pic 2. trick shot work on a pool table for soft, medium & also hard paced attempts ?
(I'll try the 3 different speeds on my table when I get a chance - interested to know results on other tables as well ?)
Click to expand...
These types of shots typically require a fair amount of speed. FYI, demonstrations and explanations can be found here:

NV B.22 - Two-times and three-times across bank shots

Enjoy,
Dave
 
Could it really be the difference between pool cues & snooker cues...not the tables? After all, "1 tip" of spin on a 13mm pool tip is about 20-30% more than on a 9.5-11mm snooker tip.

This is one reason Little Joe Villalpando does not use "tips" to describe tip adjustment when he teaches. There are far too many variables that way. Instead, he employs a clock-based system that uses distinct 1/8" increments for adjustment.

BTW, he taught me a very good technique for consistently hitting the 1-railer as depicted in scenario #1.

You are correct that the extra width/length of the snooker table will be in play on these calculations.
 
mosconiac said:
Could it really be the difference between pool cues & snooker cues...not the tables? After all, "1 tip" of spin on a 13mm pool tip is about 20-30% more than on a 9.5-11mm snooker tip.

This is one reason Little Joe Villalpando does not use "tips" to describe tip adjustment when he teaches. There are far too many variables that way. Instead, he employs a clock-based system that uses distinct 1/8" increments for adjustment.

BTW, he taught me a very good technique for consistently hitting the 1-railer as depicted in scenario #1.

You are correct that the extra width/length of the snooker table will be in play on these calculations.
Click to expand...
The slickness of the cloth, the geometry and properties of the rails and cushions, and table length (because sidespin wears off with shot distance) all come into play.

Concerning "tips of english," I agree with you and Joey V that there are better ways to quantify the amount of contact-point offset. For illustrations and resources dealing with this topic, see: "tips of" and percentage english.

Regards,
Dave
 
mosconiac said:
Could it really be the difference between pool cues & snooker cues...not the tables? After all, "1 tip" of spin on a 13mm pool tip is about 20-30% more than on a 9.5-11mm snooker tip.

This is one reason Little Joe Villalpando does not use "tips" to describe tip adjustment when he teaches. There are far too many variables that way. Instead, he employs a clock-based system that uses distinct 1/8" increments for adjustment.

BTW, he taught me a very good technique for consistently hitting the 1-railer as depicted in scenario #1.

You are correct that the extra width/length of the snooker table will be in play on these calculations.
Click to expand...

Probably easier to impart side spin with a smaller tip.
 
dr_dave said:
These types of shots typically require a fair amount of speed.
NV B.22 - Two-times and three-times across bank shots
Click to expand...

Excellent !
I tried the 2 times across last nite - (pic 2 shot) - slow pace doesn't work (not enough speed off my rails to make the distance with what I would call a soft shot)

Medium / hard works well.

I will have a go at the 3 times across - great info - thanx - videos are always worth a million words. (pictures are worth a thousand right ? :smile: )
 
Bob Jewett said:
There are some snooker authors who claim it is possible to get an s-curve with a snooker cue ball by shooting a swerve shot in the right direction on the cloth. First the swerve bends the ball one way and then the nap takes the ball the other way. I have not seen this so I do not yet believe it. I would pay good money to see someone go to the left of the blue and the right of the pink and hit the black from the cue ball on the brown spot. Or even with each of the blue and pink moved nearly a whole ball to make the shot easier.
Click to expand...

I would suggest that shot is impossible, even against the nap.

I have played on some rugs in my time but never experienced any deviation
to that degree of the cue ball running along the nap with or without side.
 
victorl said:
I find the effects of english on rebound angle off the rail to be pretty similar in snooker and in pool.
Click to expand...

Thanx Victorl,

So have you successfully tried / can you try the pic 2. trick shot or the 2 times across / 3 times across Dr. Dave video shots on a snooker table ?

Can you (or anyone) achieve these shots on a snooker table ?

ie. Are the rail spin effects / reversing spin effects similar enough on a snooker table to be able to make these shots ?

C'mon Scaramouche - I'm sure you'll have an answer for me or some useful input ? :wink:

Thanx everyone for your info.
 
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I made the 2 times across & 3 times across shots as per Dr. Daves videos. Cool indeed.
My success rate was prolly less than 50% of my attempts though - not surprising for a D player on his first outing with these shots I suppose...

How did you go DGilb147 with these and/or the pic 2. shot on a snooker table ?

Cheers.
 
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