When Will Tournament Directors Enter This Decade

Amen.

As most folks know, I'm anal about getting our sport out there via live streams primarily because mass media doesn't do squat. When those involved don't do squat (stream-wise) for an event such as this it perplexes me beyond belief. :eek:

I need a beer.

I like watching free streams and post-event videos too, but streaming costs money. PPV is a losing proposition because there aren't enough customers.

The money spent on streaming comes out of the prize fund. There is no other big pot of money -- wish there was, but there ain't.
 
Thee number 1 questions in all chatrooms combined has to be

"where are the brackets."

Brackets also answer other questions like

how many players ? and

who's playin who when ?

I wish promoters would go out of their way to get this info online.
 
If I had an idea of what they were, I wouldn't have asked the question brainiac! Obviously I'm not a streamer or tournament director. I'm a player that said I would provide an update for a pro tournament next weekend. Your post would have been much more effective had you just said "here's the best FREE online bracket to use" and been done with it. Some people must just like to see their name in print.

Now you can just go on guessing on the brackets. Makes my life much easier.

The links were posted here in this thread -- take the time to read and comprehend and you will clearly see them. Then your post would have been much more effective. The first one was posted in my original post of this thread and I have highlighted it again for you above. Somehow in your massive ability to comprehend, you missed it -- along with the other links subsequent posters added.

Who is the brainiac?


Sorry to jump in on this dialog, but while I think Bandit has a very, very minor point in wanting somebody to provide him with the specific "best" information and bracket system, the reality is that Watchez is far, far, far (far?) more accurate in that you need to conduct a modicum of research and fact finding for yourself. No one product is "best" for every and all situations.

Bandit's point palls in comparison to such sage wisdom as "teach a man to fish and he will eat forever". Seriously, Bandi did absolutely ZERO research into the options that were clearly presented yet still feels capable of chiming in with a dissenting opinion on the products and crux of this thread?

How does this tie in with the actual topic of the thread? Here's how: Bandit's attitude and complete lack of critical thinking skills is a parrot of the tournament organizers who I have met over the years. Big or small tournament, the attitude of "I know how to fill out this giant piece of crate paper for a bracket of 64 people to run this tournament for 32 entrants and it will be fantastic" has done more to cripple their tournament then any outsider (including Earl the Pearl) could have possibly done. Having 20 people (or teams) sit around while 3 tables get used and complaining about how much time/energy is wasted to make their tournament run "smoothly", when the tools exist. Or players questioning what matches are happening from the organizers hiding in their crate-paper fortresses.
 
It wasn't meant as contempt but maybe they just don't know about it or just think that if they have to learn something new, it is more difficult when in fact it is easier.

I'll call Jay Helfert a friend (although I barely know him) - but I'll also say I think it is ridiculious that an event like the Big Foot challenge - the bracket looks like Jay draw it up while having lunch in the Chinese restaurant at the casino.

You want pool to grow - use the tools that are out there to make it grow. You want pool to be professional. Make it professional to the max in every aspect, not just hold the players accountable.

I commend someone like Brent Thomas -- his event in Texas is almost completely sold out. Why? Cause he used the multi media marketing tools available to him to get it done. Hopefully he is smart enough to have it all online as well.

I run tournaments (outside of pool). I have online brackets and after the tournament, the matches that were streamed are linked to the bracket so you can go in, see the score of the match and click to view the corresponding match if you like.

Watchez is the teacher

How did you know I was eating sushi while I worked! :wink:
 
One of the issues I see running a large board on computers is the fact that you can only see part of the bracket without scrolling. This eliminates the brackets detectives and players from studying the board.

The computer system CSI uses which prints labels and then those are transferred to a larger paper board are the best for large events. (very expensive though and currently they aren't sharing)

Someone needs to write an inexpensive program for a label maker that is driven by a bracket system for the general public to use. Voila. paper brackets AND computer technology.

Ray
 
The problem I see with "complainers" and those who critique others "to get with it" (especially on this forum) is that their rant(s) is
often replete with errors, e.g. bad grammar, misspelled words.

Truly bad form when pointing a finger at others.
I agree on one thing however, this IS the 21st century and good communication through writing SHOULD be given attention.
Please learn this as I say again, bad writing looks bad when "scolding" each other on this forum.

Thank you.
 
One of the issues I see running a large board on computers is the fact that you can only see part of the bracket without scrolling. This eliminates the brackets detectives and players from studying the board.

The computer system CSI uses which prints labels and then those are transferred to a larger paper board are the best for large events. (very expensive though and currently they aren't sharing)

Someone needs to write an inexpensive program for a label maker that is driven by a bracket system for the general public to use. Voila. paper brackets AND computer technology.

Ray

Sorry Ray - I have to disagree. I don't see the issue on why you would ever want a big large paper bracket anymore. I can possibly see it for the CSI event you speak of if you have 100s of players. But I am talking about a 32, 64, even a 128 man board. You can either 'scroll with your eyes' as you look over a large paper board or you can scroll with your mouse. I don't see the difference. And with the electronic format, everyone can enjoy it, view it, have it saved for eternity.

And if a TD wants to, they can buy a projector that will put the bracket board from their computer onto a screen for the people that are in attendance to actually view if they can't figure out how to look on their smart phone or IPad.
 
Sorry to jump in on this dialog, but while I think Bandit has a very, very minor point in wanting somebody to provide him with the specific "best" information and bracket system, the reality is that Watchez is far, far, far (far?) more accurate in that you need to conduct a modicum of research and fact finding for yourself. No one product is "best" for every and all situations.

Bandit's point palls in comparison to such sage wisdom as "teach a man to fish and he will eat forever". Seriously, Bandi did absolutely ZERO research into the options that were clearly presented yet still feels capable of chiming in with a dissenting opinion on the products and crux of this thread?

How does this tie in with the actual topic of the thread? Here's how: Bandit's attitude and complete lack of critical thinking skills is a parrot of the tournament organizers who I have met over the years. Big or small tournament, the attitude of "I know how to fill out this giant piece of crate paper for a bracket of 64 people to run this tournament for 32 entrants and it will be fantastic" has done more to cripple their tournament then any outsider (including Earl the Pearl) could have possibly done. Having 20 people (or teams) sit around while 3 tables get used and complaining about how much time/energy is wasted to make their tournament run "smoothly", when the tools exist. Or players questioning what matches are happening from the organizers hiding in their crate-paper fortresses.


How's this for the critical thinking exercise:

People who complain about the lack of pool tournament brackets but do nothing to HELP are morons.
Watchez complained about the lack of pool tournament brackets and does nothing to help.
Therefore, Watchez is a moron.


Follow the logic there? Perhaps you missed the portion that I am a PLAYER...I am NOT a TD. This is NOT my tournament nor have I ever used an online service for brackets. I simply mentioned that I am playing in a tournament and if anyone has a suggestion for a good free bracket to use, I would try to provide updates. It seemed simple enough. Since I have never done an online bracket and I'm playing in this tournament, it is not important enough to me to spend time doing the research for something that other people are much more familiar with. A forum is a place for the exchange of ideas and information. I asked for an easy free service to use as I'll be focused on playing. Seemed like a very logical simple request.
 
better yet, you could use the IngenPool software (located here: http://www.budtour.com/) and run your tournament and a calcutta, plus keep a working database of players.

Unfortunately, this pgrm doesn't allow to organize a tournament where the
first matches are played in pools before playing double (or single) elimination. I thing that such a tournament is called 'Swiss system'.

For ex., if there are 32 players, I want to create 4 groups of 8 players (or 5 groups - 3*6+2*7, or any playable combination), each player playing against each other of the same pool (7 matches for each thus).

Then, only the 4 best players of each pool (for ex.) continues the tornament (1/8, 1/4, etc. with single or even double elimination.

This type of tournament, allowing people to play more than two matches is not possible with the Ingenpool software.
 
How's this for the critical thinking exercise:

People who complain about the lack of pool tournament brackets but do nothing to HELP are morons.
Watchez complained about the lack of pool tournament brackets and does nothing to help.
Therefore, Watchez is a moron.


Follow the logic there? Perhaps you missed the portion that I am a PLAYER...I am NOT a TD. This is NOT my tournament nor have I ever used an online service for brackets. I simply mentioned that I am playing in a tournament and if anyone has a suggestion for a good free bracket to use, I would try to provide updates. It seemed simple enough. Since I have never done an online bracket and I'm playing in this tournament, it is not important enough to me to spend time doing the research for something that other people are much more familiar with. A forum is a place for the exchange of ideas and information. I asked for an easy free service to use as I'll be focused on playing. Seemed like a very logical simple request.

And your request was already answered 3 times in the thread. So it wasn't very logical.....and still isn't. How much more of an exchange of ideas do you possibly need???

Here are the posts that you seem to have missed or cannot comprehend:




Brackelope is another great example of a more modern approach I wish more tournament directors would use. It shows the brackets, what matches are in play, how long the match took, all live. I know the Action Pool Tour used this once, and several other smaller weekly tournaments are using it (like the ones that Craig is running at Champions in Frederick, Maryland).

http://brackelope.com

better yet, you could use the IngenPool software (located here: http://www.budtour.com/) and run your tournament and a calcutta, plus keep a working database of players.
 
For the Western Canadians, they have approx 20 flat screens at the Control Desk.

You log in and check the brackets, your next opponent, time and table number.
 
How's this for the critical thinking exercise:

People who complain about the lack of pool tournament brackets but do nothing to HELP are morons.
Watchez complained about the lack of pool tournament brackets and does nothing to help.
Therefore, Watchez is a moron.

If you can't accept our rules and manage to play nice, you won't be here for too terribly long either.

This is your warning.
 
We are using Challonge.com for our American Rotation Series - it is real easy to use.

Good luck.

If anyone knows of a free online bracket, I'd be more than happy to provide it for the Andy Mercer next weekend. I'm playing in it but I have no problem providing updates.
 
I just saw that someone posted the picture of the handwritten brackets for the SBE Open.

Why is it that this tournament - and many many others for that matter - don't have their brackets online? It is 2014. If they don't have the savy to create an online bracket themself and post to their website (if they had a website), there are plenty of free to use brackets online.

http://challonge.com/ is just one example.

It just astonishes me. There are tournaments all over - not just some small $5 entry fee bar tournamnent - but tournaments that are apart of a tour that still sit there and write out the entire bracket by hand. They draw the players to their matches the old school way by drawing out playing cards to match the player. This kills about 45 minutes when the tournament could be running.

Then you have 20 people crowded around a tournament bracket wanting to see who plays who. All they would need to do is complete it online and everyone use their smart phone.

I have a bracket that was created by a friend of mine using Excel - just enter the player names on a list, click a button and in 2 seconds the bracket is populated. Click the winner of each match and it moves the winner and loser to the appropriate next position on the bracket. It also calculates payouts, etc.
This is a backup for when the internet fails.

It is not that hard.

Watchez is the teacher

Good thread, sir......and it needed to be said.

I ran a lot of tournaments in the 80s....today's technology would've
been great....it's there, people should use it.

pt...is in the bleachers
 
Your answers/options, which you claim to have needed again, were provided.

I've contacted my local organizer, created a proper sized and live tournament board FOR THEM and offered insight into how to use it.

Response: Ignoring the pre-tournament emails offering assistance, then scolded at the event for getting my nose in places it didn't belong.

Then "enjoying" the 2 hour wait between rounds while tables went un-used because of their inefficiencies. The best part of my day was coming by their crate paper fortress between rounds and showing them that I already had their rounds sorted and table assignments done for them on the app within 2 minutes of the round finishing.

Their final response was that it was "nifty" but that they were so busy running the tournament that they don't have time to learn some new program..... I had 6 hours of free time. They could have had 6 hours of free time. More than enough time to learn a "nifty" app.

So now i'm just complaining about you and your inability to process information.

How's this for the critical thinking exercise:

People who complain about the lack of pool tournament brackets but do nothing to HELP are morons.
Watchez complained about the lack of pool tournament brackets and does nothing to help.
Therefore, Watchez is a moron.


Follow the logic there? Perhaps you missed the portion that I am a PLAYER...I am NOT a TD. This is NOT my tournament nor have I ever used an online service for brackets. I simply mentioned that I am playing in a tournament and if anyone has a suggestion for a good free bracket to use, I would try to provide updates. It seemed simple enough. Since I have never done an online bracket and I'm playing in this tournament, it is not important enough to me to spend time doing the research for something that other people are much more familiar with. A forum is a place for the exchange of ideas and information. I asked for an easy free service to use as I'll be focused on playing. Seemed like a very logical simple request.
 
Sorry Ray - I have to disagree. I don't see the issue on why you would ever want a big large paper bracket anymore. I can possibly see it for the CSI event you speak of if you have 100s of players. But I am talking about a 32, 64, even a 128 man board. You can either 'scroll with your eyes' as you look over a large paper board or you can scroll with your mouse. I don't see the difference. And with the electronic format, everyone can enjoy it, view it, have it saved for eternity.

And if a TD wants to, they can buy a projector that will put the bracket board from their computer onto a screen for the people that are in attendance to actually view if they can't figure out how to look on their smart phone or IPad.

I'll admit I've only ran about 60 tournaments on 64 man boards and I have only been involved in about 150 128 man boards.

Here's the issues.

1. If the event has a calcutta the buyers,corporations, partners and potential partners will be studying the boards the entire event. It's part of the fun for them.

2. If the computer crashes during the event, then what? Must be ran from the cloud? Blue screen, virus', malware

3. We are ready for the technology and it's coming whether we like it or not but if the people funding the event want paper brackets, they are getting paper brackets. It's that simple.







Ray
 
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A computor program can be a vauable tool in running a tournament. It is not the end-all. A tournament must have a "Leader Board" that is prominent and visable to everyone.
 
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I'll admit I've only ran about 60 tournaments on 64 man boards and I have only been involved in about 150 128 man boards.

Here's the issues.

1. If the event has a calcutta the buyers,corporations, partners and potential partners will be studying the boards the entire event. It's part of the fun for them.

2. If the computer crashes during the event, then what? Must be ran from the cloud? Blue screen, virus', malware

3. We are ready for the technology and it's coming whether we like it or not but if the people funding the event want paper brackets, they are getting paper brackets. It's that simple.







Ray



Wait, you post brackets before a Calcutta? I've never seen that before. We do calcutta's before the brackets just to avoid reason #1.

And the programs they are referring to aren't on your laptop or tablet, they are hosted by a website that you just access from your computer. Anyone with any smartphone, tablet, laptop or PC can go to that website and see the brackets.
 
I'd like to add a few notes from my own limited experience in trying to use these programs for brackets.

Although I've tried many of them over the years, I was never happy with the actual results. In most cases, I ended up using a paper bracket either as a backup or as a supplementary tool, ultimately doubling the work anyway.

In this post, I'll do a quick review of the three examples listed in this thread.

Brackelope

- Cool little iPhone app, but it is missing some flexibility that make it unusable for many tournaments. Free for Single Elim, $10 for Double Elim.

- No manual table assignment (i.e. TV Table). To assign a match to a specific table (TV table, for example), you would need to assign all matches (randomly), find the match that is on the TV table, put that match on hold, find the match you want on the TV table, assign it to the TV table, then manually find another open table, and finally assign the unwanted match to that other table. Something like that - you get the point. It simply wouldn't work in a production environment.

- There is no way to customize entry fees or payouts. You can choose between $0, $5, $7, $10, and $20 entry fees. There is no option to customize payout ratios.

- You can't report the score of a match; you can only indicate who won and lost.

- Also lacking are options for, handicaps (even simple ones like "ladies get one on the wire"), seeding (if desired), and several other major items.

- There are some other minor things, but the above is enough to eliminate this from my list.

Challonge.com

- A pretty cool free web app, but again lacks important features.

- No options for table assignments of any kind.

- The brackets are built in order of player entry. Although you can randomize the initial rounds, the bracket is available for people to view live from the moment it is created. This means you can't give out the link ahead of time, or people will jump to the brackets and see the matchups before they are randomized. Big problem.

- As some have no doubt already noticed, the brackets are drawn in a unique style that can be confusing to anyone who is accustomed to a regular bracket. If you don't know what I mean, go check out some sample double elimination tournaments on their site.

- Challonge does have a lot of cool features, like allowing multiple users to manage the scores, brackets, etc. Players can even get emailed match alerts and report their own scores if they have a Challonge account. However, this also opens the door for massive mistakes that could be ruinous to a tournament.

BudTour.com (IngenPool)

- This one comes the closest, but still has a few quirks that would make me revert to paper.

- No automatic live updates. You can link it to a website, but updates will only happen when the TD remembers to click the Update button.

- Somewhat limited handicap system. Although it can easily handle full APA-style handicaps (i.e. certain levels play to specific games), there is no way to simply adjust games on the wire. There are workarounds for this, but it would be tedious at best.

- While the capabilities of this program are pretty impressive, the user interface looks like something written for Windows 95. If they revamped the interface and added a few features, this could be a real possibility for the future.

- While Brackelope and Challonge are too simple, this one is too complex. There is a HUGE variety of options for adjusting payouts etc, but they miss out on some basic common aspects, for example, no option to take out greens fees.

- Some of the really cool features in BudTour include a great match scheduler, including a simple way to reschedule or move matches, edit mistakes, send text messages when matches are called, display the brackets on an external screen or projector, print scorecards, print brackets, and even manage the calcutta.

- However, the tournament information is NOT stored online. If something happens to the computer hosting the software, your tournament is GONE and you'll have to start from scratch using the online PDF as a historical record.

SUMMARY:

BudTour is a really great program for weekly tournaments and such, but I would ultimately not trust it for regional events, big tournaments, etc. Challonge and Brackelope simply aren't advanced enough.

One final problem with online brackets is this: Having the brackets online does NOT solve the problem of people asking where the brackets are! You still have to provide a link (and tell people where to find the link). And the participants and spectators in the tournament, will also need the link. They aren't on their computer, in a chat room, or on AZB where they could "just look at the top of the screen". You would essentially to print banners with the link for each tournament, and hang them all around the room.

A paper (or plastic) bracket board allows infinite customizability - TD's can mark table assignments, have a quick reference to the overall progress of the tournament, call whatever matches make sense at the time, select certain matches for certain tables, and allow players, spectators, and live streamers to walk over and view the bracket without asking questions.

And finally, like it or not, some tournament directors just don't like online brackets or software. Maybe they don't trust computers. Maybe they feel that with the sometimes large amounts of money at stake, they want to have one and only one record of the tournament. Maybe they just like to be able to write notes on the side of the brackets. Maybe they just don't care about people who are not involved at all with the tournament.

If we, as viewers, don't like the way they run their tournament, well... you know the rest.

It would be nice if every tournament had online brackets like CSI, and the technology is definitely available, but the products that are out there right now just aren't ready to be the workhorse tournament management systems that they should be.

When I was in college, I wrote a program to handle almost all of these tasks. It took me YEARS of programming to get it to what I thought was a high enough level of functionality that it could completely replace paper brackets for pool tournaments. I compiled it, copyrighted it, formed the LLC and registered my DBA. I went to big tournaments all over Texas showing off this software, demonstrating its features, and integrating new feature requests into it. And guess what. I never sold a single copy. Would I get back into that project and try to sell it to tournament directors across the nation? Heck no. That's money that ultimately comes out of the players' and pool halls' bank accounts, and they would rather keep that money in the prize fund.

I hope my perspective was helpful.

-Blake
 
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