Maybe someone in your area can loan it to you and then while at work you can be paid to photocopy it for free :grin:
Copyright Schmopyright... at what shaggin point?
- Thread starter Lesh
- Start date
Maybe someone in your area can loan it to you and then while at work you can be paid to photocopy it for free :grin:
I have not heard of either book let alone read them and do not feel my pool playing life is tainted in any way by that loss..
Perhaps I shall start snooker vs pool debate 816 To make up for it..
Perhaps I shall start snooker vs pool debate 816 To make up for it..
Like others have said, you can buy these books from someone almost all the time. Even if you have to do a quick resale to get some money back, you'll lose maybe a hundred bucks on both of them.
100 bucks is what your average golf pro charges for 1 hr of instruction. You'll have 100 hrs worth of shots, systems, and other stuff to learn from for a buck an hour.
I will say that I agree somewhat with the OP. For years I looked for a video of Randy Rhoads playing a full show with Ozzy Osbourne and would have bought a bootleg of it if I could. The difference is there isn't videos of that popping up every month...I've never seen one at all.
100 bucks is what your average golf pro charges for 1 hr of instruction. You'll have 100 hrs worth of shots, systems, and other stuff to learn from for a buck an hour.
I will say that I agree somewhat with the OP. For years I looked for a video of Randy Rhoads playing a full show with Ozzy Osbourne and would have bought a bootleg of it if I could. The difference is there isn't videos of that popping up every month...I've never seen one at all.
funny how when its someone else's work that is priced high, its an outrage. When its your work that is priced high, then you earned every penny of valuation.
obviously you can and probably will go ahead and pirate the works. But at least be honest with yourself and admit your just being a nit. I know ive fired up my bittorrent client before and its only because im a nit too.
obviously you can and probably will go ahead and pirate the works. But at least be honest with yourself and admit your just being a nit. I know ive fired up my bittorrent client before and its only because im a nit too.
I'm no copyright lawyer, but I do know that in many cases it is completely legal and acceptable to photocopy existing works, either in part or in entirety. This falls under the "fair use" section of copyright law.
It is a somewhat fuzzy area as to what constitutes fair use, but two big factors are whether or not you intend to profit from selling copyrighted works, and whether the works are currently available at a reasonable price (i.e. still in print and available for retail purchase).
I'd be willing to bet that having a copy of either of these books made by a legitimate owner (this would include a public library) would be viewed as "fair use" by a copyright lawyer. Now, if he tried to sell it for any amount of money, goods, or services, that would probably be breaking the law.
It is a somewhat fuzzy area as to what constitutes fair use, but two big factors are whether or not you intend to profit from selling copyrighted works, and whether the works are currently available at a reasonable price (i.e. still in print and available for retail purchase).
I'd be willing to bet that having a copy of either of these books made by a legitimate owner (this would include a public library) would be viewed as "fair use" by a copyright lawyer. Now, if he tried to sell it for any amount of money, goods, or services, that would probably be breaking the law.
Nice troll .... 8/10.
I actually took the time to say nice troll.
:::::golf clap::::::
Now I know where I went wrong. I have been laboring under the illusion if I can't afford something I should not make the purchase. If I can afford it but think it is over priced I should either forget it or if I want it bad enough go ahead and buy it, price be damned. It never occured to me to steal (pirate) it. Damn parents really steered me wrong!
Ohhh, almost forgot to answer the question. At NO point is is okay. Just because you want something you think is over priced does not make it acceptable to obtain it by "any means necessary." And to equate acquiring a book on pool to feeding your family during a major disaster is ludicrous!
Feelings on the matter asked for and given.
Well, that would break the law, I would think, because those books were both in print and easily available for purchase. But the law is never as completely clear as some think it is.
When I was in research, the lab director used to send me across the street to the Albany Medical library to copy articles from various medical journals that we didn't subscribe to. Not only did they permit this, they would actually do the copying for me while I waited. I must have had hundreds of these articles photocopied for me this way, and all I paid was the cost of the copies themselves.
This seems to be the accepted practice at most libraries. Now, if I showed up every Monday morning and asked the desk to copy this week's issue of JAMA from cover to cover, I think that request might be denied.
except for some great old pictures they are nothing special. You are not going to become a one pocket wizard by reading these books. I had both and sold them long ago.
A funny thing, years ago I was in Las Vegas at a Grady Mathews straight pool tournament, I think at the Tropicana. It was during one of the BCA shows. Eddie was there with a card table set up selling his book. I think it was like $50.00 and he could not give them away, no one was buying. I guess $50.00 for a book was just too much. It was not till the internet and forums like this when the legend began to grow that everyone had to have the book at any price. The more they can't have something the more they want it.
I recently got Freddy the Beards book on pool hustlers. I can't tell you how many people call me wanting to borrow the book. Of course if I lend it out the chances that I will never see it again are high. I am just going by experience. When I say it is still available and only $50.00 I get the same answer, " I'm not paying $50.00 for any book".
I used to have a copy of the Hustler signed by Walter Tevis. I ran into him at a tournament and went out and bought a copy of his book to have signed. I loaned that to someone to read like 15 years ago and needless to say I have never seen it again.
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True story:
I was at a pool hall just outside of Dallas when somebody came up to me and tried to sell me a pirated copy of my own 9 Ball book.
Copyright may not mean too much to you - but you have to sit back for a second and see how it affects the author.
Copyrights - editing - publishing - printing are not free. This does not include the years that go into research - writing - editing - more editing - it is very time and cost consuming.
Once the work is completed - published - printed - you then have to sell. You recover the costs of production from your sales - and hopefully you can make a little money per book. Trust me - it is not a lot of money - but what you make is taxable income.
So ... when somebody just takes your work and flippantly says "Copyright Schmopyright" ... it tends to grind on my nerves a bit.
A few years ago, I had a manuscript of portions of a straight pool book I was writing. I sent a copy to a friend of mine in Europe to get some feedback. His copy grew legs, 3 months later his copy had multiplied it's way across the entire continent - with copies popping up eventually in Asia. Somebody made money off of the pirated copies of that information - but I can assure you that it wasn't me.
7 years later, I still haven't published that book. Years of work ... down the drain.
You just want to get your hands on the information - that is understandable. There are ways of getting the material honestly. Many have been mentioned in this thread. Photocopying the information may not seem like a big deal to a lot of people - but I can assure you that it is a big deal when you are the person getting screwed. Pirating copies devalues the information and the efforts of the person that took the time to write the material. From my vantage point, it's stealing.
and one more thing ... you don't get rich from selling books about pool. The people that go out of their way to insinuate that ... don't have a clue.
I was at a pool hall just outside of Dallas when somebody came up to me and tried to sell me a pirated copy of my own 9 Ball book.
Copyright may not mean too much to you - but you have to sit back for a second and see how it affects the author.
Copyrights - editing - publishing - printing are not free. This does not include the years that go into research - writing - editing - more editing - it is very time and cost consuming.
Once the work is completed - published - printed - you then have to sell. You recover the costs of production from your sales - and hopefully you can make a little money per book. Trust me - it is not a lot of money - but what you make is taxable income.
So ... when somebody just takes your work and flippantly says "Copyright Schmopyright" ... it tends to grind on my nerves a bit.
A few years ago, I had a manuscript of portions of a straight pool book I was writing. I sent a copy to a friend of mine in Europe to get some feedback. His copy grew legs, 3 months later his copy had multiplied it's way across the entire continent - with copies popping up eventually in Asia. Somebody made money off of the pirated copies of that information - but I can assure you that it wasn't me.
7 years later, I still haven't published that book. Years of work ... down the drain.
You just want to get your hands on the information - that is understandable. There are ways of getting the material honestly. Many have been mentioned in this thread. Photocopying the information may not seem like a big deal to a lot of people - but I can assure you that it is a big deal when you are the person getting screwed. Pirating copies devalues the information and the efforts of the person that took the time to write the material. From my vantage point, it's stealing.
and one more thing ... you don't get rich from selling books about pool. The people that go out of their way to insinuate that ... don't have a clue.
You are talking to this guy like he cares. Several years ago I sold a copy of Burton Spains cue making book on ebey. I forget what it finally sold for but it was something like over a $100.00.True story:
I was at a pool hall just outside of Dallas when somebody came up to me and tried to sell me a pirated copy of my own 9 Ball book.
Copyright may not mean too much to you - but you have to sit back for a second and see how it affects the author.
Copyrights - editing - publishing - printing are not free. This does not include the years that go into research - writing - editing - more editing - it is very time and cost consuming.
Once the work is completed - published - printed - you then have to sell. You recover the costs of production from your sales - and hopefully you can make a little money per book. Trust me - it is not a lot of money - but what you make is taxable income.
So ... when somebody just takes your work and flippantly says "Copyright Schmopyright" ... it tends to grind on my nerves a bit.
A few years ago, I had a manuscript of portions of a straight pool book I was writing. I sent a copy to a friend of mine in Europe to get some feedback. His copy grew legs, 3 months later his copy had multiplied it's way across the entire continent - with copies popping up eventually in Asia. Somebody made money off of the pirated copies of that information - but I can assure you that it wasn't me.
7 years later, I still haven't published that book. Years of work ... down the drain.
You just want to get your hands on the information - that is understandable. There are ways of getting the material honestly. Many have been mentioned in this thread. Photocopying the information may not seem like a big deal to a lot of people - but I can assure you that it is a big deal when you are the person getting screwed. Pirating copies devalues the information and the efforts of the person that took the time to write the material. From my vantage point, it's stealing.
and one more thing ... you don't get rich from selling books about pool. The people that go out of their way to insinuate that ... don't have a clue.
While the auction was going I must have gotten maybe 25 or more emails asking what I would want to sell a photo copy of the book. Here is the funny part, they were offering like $5 and $10. They were not only dishonest but dishonest and cheap.
Don't waste your words on this guy he could care less. All dishonest people try to find ways to rationalize their behavior. Those who steal money at work convince themselves they are underpaid and deserve it, so they just steal it. A thief is a thief.
In the past when people have talked about this, Eddie Robin himself jumped on and showed
some of his own smoldering rage... he never posts but he must read from time to time.
If someone is never ever going to buy a product, then in theory downloading a copy
doesn't directly hurt the publisher. It's possible it hurts them indirectly... you may change
your mind later if someone tells you the book brought up their game 3 balls,
or you suddenly get a job where $600 isn't a lot of money.
Or you may talk someone else out of purchasing a copy, if they can get it for free from you.
What I don't understand is, does Eddie Robin get any money or royalties from
privately owned copies being resold on e.g. ebay? I suspect the answer is no.
So why doesn't he want as many people as possible to read his words?
Does he just like the prestige that comes from being constantly "in demand"?
Is he still selling copies somewhere, that pirated copies would compete with?
I had the impression he's sold all the copies in existence long ago and now
they're just recycling.
One way of looking at it is, if you're a gambler and the book helps you win sets,
it doesn't take too many sets to recoup a $600 investment unless you play for REAL cheap.
some of his own smoldering rage... he never posts but he must read from time to time.
If someone is never ever going to buy a product, then in theory downloading a copy
doesn't directly hurt the publisher. It's possible it hurts them indirectly... you may change
your mind later if someone tells you the book brought up their game 3 balls,
or you suddenly get a job where $600 isn't a lot of money.
Or you may talk someone else out of purchasing a copy, if they can get it for free from you.
What I don't understand is, does Eddie Robin get any money or royalties from
privately owned copies being resold on e.g. ebay? I suspect the answer is no.
So why doesn't he want as many people as possible to read his words?
Does he just like the prestige that comes from being constantly "in demand"?
Is he still selling copies somewhere, that pirated copies would compete with?
I had the impression he's sold all the copies in existence long ago and now
they're just recycling.
One way of looking at it is, if you're a gambler and the book helps you win sets,
it doesn't take too many sets to recoup a $600 investment unless you play for REAL cheap.
The current price of the actual book is somewhat unrelated to it's content, it is based primarily on the rarity of the physical book. The information contained in the book is pretty much free. That's why a photocopy of the Mona Lisa is widely available for free on the internet, maybe $10 for a decent copy.
Have at it...
IMO
J
Extremely easy?
One must first have the $200 spare cash to buy the book.
Pool is more and more becoming a sport that denies access to those with low incomes. Sad in my opinion.
The OP is not advocating stealing, scamming or anything unethical. I believe s/he is suggesting that charging high prices for books does little to promote the game.
People tell me that I should charge more for lessons, but I continue to offer them for $20 an hour, with additional discounts for groups. I do this because I want to accommodate those who can't pay more...in hopes of promoting the game I love.
One must first have the $200 spare cash to buy the book.
Pool is more and more becoming a sport that denies access to those with low incomes. Sad in my opinion.
The OP is not advocating stealing, scamming or anything unethical. I believe s/he is suggesting that charging high prices for books does little to promote the game.
People tell me that I should charge more for lessons, but I continue to offer them for $20 an hour, with additional discounts for groups. I do this because I want to accommodate those who can't pay more...in hopes of promoting the game I love.
I found this brief outline of what is covered under copyright law in the US.
http://www2.honolulu.hawaii.edu/facdev/guidebk/policies/copyrite.htm
I'm not sure about the "fair use" part, and I may have been wrong with what I said in a previous post. Suffice it to say there is a lot of gray area in copyright law, and precedents are continually being set on case-by-case basis. There is a lot of bad information out there, though.
I really doubt if anybody here has never ripped a CD onto their computer and made a copy for their friend, or shared digital music files, or copyright-protected photos, or put a copyrighted piece of music as a background to a YouTube video they posted, or downloaded a PDF of a published work, or videotaped a movie from TV, or accepted bootleg computer software from a coworker, or any of dozens of other seemingly innocuous copyright infringements.
Just one offense along these lines shows the same lack of integrity as numerous offenses IMO. If any of you are guiltless of all of the above, then sure, go ahead and cast the first stone.
http://www2.honolulu.hawaii.edu/facdev/guidebk/policies/copyrite.htm
I'm not sure about the "fair use" part, and I may have been wrong with what I said in a previous post. Suffice it to say there is a lot of gray area in copyright law, and precedents are continually being set on case-by-case basis. There is a lot of bad information out there, though.
I really doubt if anybody here has never ripped a CD onto their computer and made a copy for their friend, or shared digital music files, or copyright-protected photos, or put a copyrighted piece of music as a background to a YouTube video they posted, or downloaded a PDF of a published work, or videotaped a movie from TV, or accepted bootleg computer software from a coworker, or any of dozens of other seemingly innocuous copyright infringements.
Just one offense along these lines shows the same lack of integrity as numerous offenses IMO. If any of you are guiltless of all of the above, then sure, go ahead and cast the first stone.
Personally, I'd rather get things the old fashioned way - by buying them with my own money.
I'd also rather be right because I did the right thing - not because I could rationalize or justify a technicality or loophole in the rules.
Some may not agree with that - or- they'll find some other inaccurate label to pin on me for saying that - but nobody's criticism will change the fact that there's no right way to do the wrong thing. If you want something - there's a price tag on that want. You have a choice to pay that price - or you have the choice to obtain that "want" by less than admirable means - it's a choice - and choices define who you are. Plain and simple.