How beneficial is an aiming system?

One of the best players I've ever seen, Shannon Murphy from cinncinnati, said he pretty much just feels what he's doing.
Most good players and pros aim basic cut shots by "feel" or "intuition" created from many years of successful practice and experience. Although, these people still have a pre-shot routine and a system of aiming even if they don't realize it or think about it. Most "feel" and "intuition" based "aiming systems" involve "just seeing the angle" and/or contact point visualization and/or ghost-ball visualization. For more info, see:

Dave's Aiming Method (DAM)
How the Pro's Aim

Concerning practice, the best way to improve your "aiming system" is to practice any shot you miss. For example, if you are running racks of 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, or 15-ball during solo practice, any time you miss a shot and/or position, retry the shot multiple times to see why you missed it and to make necessary corrections. This will improve your "aiming system" and hopefully make it more effective the next time you face similar shots.

I've watched most of Dr. Dave Billiards videos and they have given me an understanding of what is actually going on from a physics standpoint. I then try and see it for myself on the table and put it in my memory banks. I know about cut induced throw/spin, spin induced throw/spin, rail spin reversal, the limits of a miscue, and so on. But is it worth it to actually THINK about all that when playing? I feel like it's much better to let your subconscious do all that.
You should most definitely think about and adjust for this stuff while planning a shot (unless you have enough years of successful practice and experience to the point where all of the adjustments occur totally naturally already). Regardless, you should definitely not be thinking about any of this stuff at all during an actual shot.

So basically at this point in my game would it be beneficial for me to look into an aiming system?
Even if you don't use a prescribed "aiming system," it can be useful to learn and try them out. Sometimes they might help you see things differently and/or better. They also help some people focus on actually aiming more and/or better. For more info, see:

benefits of "aiming systems"

For more info on commonly discussed and used "aiming systems," see the aiming systems resource page.

Aiming systems can also be useful during play if a particular type of shot (e.g., a back cut) doesn't feel just right to you, or if you tend to miss it often. For example, when my "intuition" doesn't feel just right, I sometimes fall back on the following "aiming system:"

NV D.9 - How to Aim Pool Shots - from Vol-II of the Billiard University instructional DVD series

I hope that helps,
Dave
 
Corey has my invitation for free training and an opportunity to report to all any hype he likes but I am NOT worried about any negatives should he make the trip.
In fact, after CTE user Phil Burford beat Corey 11-1 at the Open, Corey was interested and told me so.

Stan Shuffett

So in essence your saying this defeat is because Cory can't aim lol
 
So in essence your saying this defeat is because Cory can't aim lol

I did not say that but the match at the time piqued his interest.
I think Corey knew that Phil was bringing something special to the table.
Corey spoke to Phil and me.... It was all about respect.

Stan Shuffett
 
That's debatable. I'm not going to argue with a brick wall.

You do not know what you don't know. There will be a tipping point one day and then many will know exactly why I have held as steady as brick wall.
You do not even know CTE PRO ONE and yet you spill out about a subject that you actually know nothing about.

Stan Shuffett
 
Well I can guess where this thread is headed. So let me ask a question if I may. Has anyone ever tried to help teach another player how to aim? Like one of those players who hit the object ball dead center on cut shots. Someone who just doesn't get how to aim. If you have ever helped someone like that. How did you help them and did it help? There are millions of pool players that don't have the feel of aiming as others do. So how would you help them besides telling them to go practice. You can practice shooting a gun all day but if your doing it wrong you may never hit the bullseye. So until either you figure it out on your own or someone helps you. You will continually repeat a flawed process. So stop telling people to practice practice practice.

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Well I can guess where this thread is headed. So let me ask a question if I may. Has anyone ever tried to help teach another player how to aim? Like one of those players who hit the object ball dead center on cut shots. Someone who just doesn't get how to aim. If you have ever helped someone like that. How did you help them and did it help? There are millions of pool players that don't have the feel of aiming as others do. So how would you help them besides telling them to go practice.
I think an approach like the one in the following video is helpful in these situations:

NV D.9 - How to Aim Pool Shots - from Vol-II of the Billiard University instructional DVD series

Enjoy,
Dave
 
Hate to see this turn into another aiming wars thread but it is likely inevitable. I am another advocate for CTE/Pro One. It is a bit humorous to see a number of people speak negatively about this system when they have essentially zero understanding of it. But it is what it is.

I also echo the advice of many who encourage you to make sure your fundamentals are solid first, particularly, a straight stroke. CTE/Pro One is the least forgiving system when your stroke isn't straight. It does take you to center pocket.

If your passionate about pool, I'd encourage you to at least look at all systems and if possible, buy the materials and learn the systems. They all have something to offer and all can be effective if you have a straight stroke and solid fundamentals. If truth were known, I suspect you can find one or more high level players who have used all the different systems to great success. It is a matter of personal preference. The only way you'll find your personal preference is taking some time to familiarize yourself with each.
 
So I'll start with some background on me. I started playing pool about 2.5 years ago at the age of 23 by joining my friends APA team. I had pretty much 0 experience but knew that I would love it as I am very competitive, and love physics and geometry. Bowling and drumming are two other things I excelled at previously, which require a lot of repetitive hand eye coordination type practice so I figured pool would be perfect for me.

Here's where I'm at now. I'm a 6 in the APA and i win about 65-70% of my matches each session. I know that APA skill levels are not the best indicator but it's the only way I can describe my "speed" on the internet in a way that most everyone can relate to. I'm proud of the fact that I've gotten to where I am in a relatively short time but know that I am still a VERY small fish.

I'm wondering now what is the best way to improve further. Obviously its practice practice practice, but what KIND of practice. Some people tell me to just "feel" and others preach aiming systems, and TOI, and all that jazz. One of the best players I've ever seen, Shannon Murphy from cinncinnati, said he pretty much just feels what he's doing. I think this is a little unfair though since he started playing at a VERY young age and has had some extremely good instruction throughout his life.

So far in my progression I've tended to try both. I've watched most of Dr. Dave Billiards videos and they have given me an understanding of what is actually going on from a physics standpoint. I then try and see it for myself on the table and put it in my memory banks. I know about cut induced throw/spin, spin induced throw/spin, rail spin reversal, the limits of a miscue, and so on. But is it worth it to actually THINK about all that when playing? I feel like it's much better to let your subconscious do all that.

So basically at this point in my game would it be beneficial for me to look into an aiming system? I'm afraid of "cluttering" my head with things that are best left to the subconscious. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Aiming systems, just like any other part of the game, require conscious thought while learning them. Once ingrained into habit, they become a product of the subconscious mind. You do the steps without thinking about them.

Anyone that thinks aiming systems are a joke, is, well, just plain ignorant about them. Even Shane uses an aiming system on each and every shot. He could only partially describe what he does. Combining what he said, and intensely watching him, I figured out exactly how the system he uses works. It is a good system. Not really one I would recommend to others due to potential problems with it, but he has it down pat. He can't really describe it because it is a part of his subconscious now. He doesn't know just what steps he goes through on each shot, but they are visible when watched closely. He does each shot the same. Just like CTE or 90/90 do. (but, he isn't using either). He has broken the game down to shooting one shot over an over. His initial alingment is either left, right, or center of ferrule. Then he does a pivot. CTE uses A,B,and C then a pivot. The same, yet very different. The same, because they both reduce the variables to one basic shot, with 3 basic initial lineup possibilities.

As CJ stated, the problem with aiming systems, is that they do put you on the correct shot line to make the ball. That means, you have to stay on that shot line. You have to have a very reliable straight stroke. Anything else and it will cause you to go off the shot line and cause a miss.

Are aiming systems beneficial? 100% yes! They break the game down to doing the same thing over and over. Reaching or different stances don't mean a thing as some people want to claim. The systems put the cue on the shot line. If you want english, you adjust for it just like you do on any other way of aiming depending on what cue you are using at the time.

I don't believe there is a single pro not using some kind of system. They have to be doing something repeatable, or they wouldn't be reliably repeatable like they are. They just don't realize just what it is consciously that they are doing the same every time subconsciously. So, they say they have no system. Any time you are doing the same things over and over, you are using a system, whether you think you are or not.

That said, actually learning an aiming system will be of great benefit to one. It provides putting one on the correct shot line, repeatability, confidence, a systematic pre-shot routine, among other benefits. All of which are beneficial to ones game.
 
You do not know what you don't know. There will be a tipping one day and then many will know exactly why I have held as steady as brick wall.
You do not even CYE PRO ONE and yet you spill out about a subject that you actually know nothing about.

Stan Shuffett

To say I know nothing about CTE is incorrect. I've watched your videos on youtube. I get the gist of the aiming system, I just choose not to use it. There is no need for me to delve further into aiming systems, when I chose not to use them. My original post states that aiming systems can be beneficial.

CTE won't give me the experiences associated with one pocket. Playing one pocket will.
 
A couple of thoughts:

Everyone is different, particularly in how their brain processes information to come to a decision (in our case the decision is "am I aiming on the correct line?). While some people make decisions by subconscious "feel", everyone's brain works very systematically. The brain is making hundreds of Yes/No calculations to arrive at even the simplest decisions. It's just that it's making them so quickly that we interpret it as subconscious "feel".

But aiming is a complex decision and most people need conscious "markers" along the decision-making path. An aiming system provides those markers. But the goal of any system is that - with enough practice - it becomes second nature, i.e. the routines of the system become part of the subconscious and then you're aiming by feel.

I started playing 3 years ago. At first I had no aiming system and very poor shot-making ability. I've gone through three systems to become comfortable with my aiming system. But for the last six months I haven't performed the steps of the system for 80% of my shots. I don't need to consciously "perform" the steps because my brain is performing them subconsciously. (How did you know to put that fill in the turnaround? Your subconscious simply told you to do it...although it wasn't always that way, was it?)

Now that I'm not consciously aiming I have time to think about how I position the CB for the next shot. Right now I do that systematically (acquire tangent line, follow to rail, adjust to shorten/lengthen rebound, etc). But already I can feel CB path becoming a subconscious process in the simple/medium situations. Harder CB paths will probably always require conscious thought. I don't know if I'll ever be able to shoot bank shots subconsciously like some people do.

Bottom line: try some simple aiming systems. See if they increase your pocketing skill and -- just as importantly -- your shot confidence (it's a vicious circle :grin:) If so, you might decide to learn more complex aiming systems. IMHO it is risky to jump right into a complex aiming system because they usually require more practice and dedication before seeing results than simple systems do.
 
I have never used an aiming system. I have never read a book on one nor seen a DVD. I have never used any training aids at all.
And in spite of my lack of formal education I have run over a 100 balls in straight pool and 5 racks of 9 ball.
I may not be world champion speed but I can knockem in the holes pretty good.
And lets see who the first one is to say that had I had all that "formal" education I might have been a champion.
Maybe so but none of that was around in the '60s,you had to beg someone to tell you something or just do it the old school way-watch.
Personally I think all these "systems" are just a money machine.
Here's my aiming system for new players. Don't make an easy game hard.
If you over cut the ball hit it thicker-if you under cut the ball-hit it thinner. Now go practice that.
 
I did not say that but the match at the time piqued his interest.
I think Corey knew that Phil was bringing something special to the table.
Corey spoke to Phil and me.... It was all about respect.

Stan Shuffett

hrrm, in an earlier post you said Cory was already using it but didn't know it.
You also inferred that he lost because he isn't, deny it all you want but I could get a hundred people to read your post and they would all take away the same impression.
You hold up one match success as a beacon of proof yet you don't mention Phil's losses why is that?
OP, aiming is the lest of your worries mate you already know how, learn to cue properly and put the work in cause there is no easy way and you will be fine.

heres why
http://youtu.be/z1HYcN7f9N4
 
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Corey has my invitation for free training and an opportunity to report to all any hype he likes but I am NOT worried about any negatives should he make the trip.
In fact, after CTE user Phil Burford beat Corey 11-1 at the Open, Corey was interested and told me so.

Stan Shuffett
He certainly did not lose because he needs to learn pro one ,,,The only thing Corey needs is to put in more time he has had world class ability long before the letters CTE were ever thought of ,, what he's done with that ability is almost tragic



1
 
To say I know nothing about CTE is incorrect. I've watched your videos on youtube. I get the gist of the aiming system, I just choose not to use it. There is no need for me to delve further into aiming systems, when I chose not to use them. My original post states that aiming systems can be beneficial.

CTE won't give me the experiences associated with one pocket. Playing one pocket will.

True knowledge comes from experience. Real CTE will NEVER be known by anyone until they can use at a table.

CTE could really be a booster to your 1-pocket game.

Stan Shuffett
 
I have never used an aiming system. I have never read a book on one nor seen a DVD. I have never used any training aids at all.
And in spite of my lack of formal education I have run over a 100 balls in straight pool and 5 racks of 9 ball.
I may not be world champion speed but I can knockem in the holes pretty good.
And lets see who the first one is to say that had I had all that "formal" education I might have been a champion.
Maybe so but none of that was around in the '60s,you had to beg someone to tell you something or just do it the old school way-watch.
Personally I think all these "systems" are just a money machine.
Here's my aiming system for new players. Don't make an easy game hard.
If you over cut the ball hit it thicker-if you under cut the ball-hit it thinner. Now go practice that.
Not even Ghost Ball?
 
He certainly did not lose because he needs to learn pro one ,,,The only thing Corey needs is to put in more time he has had world class ability long before the letters CTE were ever thought of ,, what he's done with that ability is almost tragic



1

Corey can benefit greatly from CTE PRO ONE. Perhaps he will take me up on my offer for training. CTE might just be the booster he needs.

Stan Shuffett
 
I have never used an aiming system. I have never read a book on one nor seen a DVD. I have never used any training aids at all.
And in spite of my lack of formal education I have run over a 100 balls in straight pool and 5 racks of 9 ball.
I may not be world champion speed but I can knockem in the holes pretty good.
And lets see who the first one is to say that had I had all that "formal" education I might have been a champion.
Maybe so but none of that was around in the '60s,you had to beg someone to tell you something or just do it the old school way-watch.
Personally I think all these "systems" are just a money machine.
Here's my aiming system for new players. Don't make an easy game hard.
If you over cut the ball hit it thicker-if you under cut the ball-hit it thinner. Now go practice that.

Funny how you say you have never used an aiming system, then describe a system to learn how to aim. Whether you like it or not, you do use a system. If you didn't, you wouldn't even be able to hit the ball, let alone make it. You just aren't consciously aware of what your system actually is.
 
Seems everyone focuses in on pros or top players. For those against aiming systems. Do you also say they could not help any player at any level? What about players without natural ability? What about players who do put a lot of playing time in? I know players that have been APA 3's their whole life. They play more than some good players. I do understand that willingness and being capable of learning is important. How can lower rated players get better?

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