Aiming Systems • Techniques • ETC

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have $25ooo that says a panel of judges will really like what I can explain and demonstrate on 2x 1 verses a gaffed up off dimension table only good for GB CP and fractions.

Stan Shuffett

You agree to the requirement that the judges must have a genius or above IQ level and a math or physics background and I can guarantee you will get taken up on that bet. Outside of that I doubt you will get any takers because it takes a certain intelligence level and knowledge skill set to see the reality here and they aren't going to agree to any judges that may not have the intelligence to get it.
 
And none of them have exceptional IQ's. It doesn't take an exceptional IQ to be any of those things, it just takes some work. I'm talking genius level vicinity. But even with say engineers or physicists (those that have actual strong math/science backgrounds), I'd bet 95+% of them that have actually given careful consideration to any CTE based aiming system, including yours, would say that they do not and cannot work as claimed (meaning they do not find the correct aiming line without user adjustments based on prior playing experience). And 100% of the genius level ones would say the same.

There is no beginner pool player, with no prior aiming experience, who can take yours or any other aiming system and do anything other than shoot balls into the rails over and over, even if they have a perfectly straight stroke. And they can't because they don't yet have the aiming experience to correct for the inaccuracies of those systems.

You seriously do NOT think the ones I listed are not in the upper ranges of real world IQs?
Scottjen, an AZ member, has a purported 160 IQ and has said multiple times that CTE PRO ONE works as described. He is as fair and as tough a critic as they come.

Stan Shuffett
 
And none of them have exceptional IQ's. It doesn't take an exceptional IQ to be any of those things, it just takes some work. I'm talking genius level vicinity. But even with say engineers or physicists (those that have actual strong math/science backgrounds), I'd bet 95+% of them that have actually given careful consideration to any CTE based aiming system, including yours, would say that they do not and cannot work as claimed (meaning they do not find the correct aiming line without user adjustments based on prior playing experience). And 100% of the genius level ones would say the same.

There is no beginner pool player, with no prior aiming experience, who can take yours or any other aiming system and do anything other than shoot balls into the rails over and over, even if they have a perfectly straight stroke. And they can't because they don't yet have the aiming experience to correct for the inaccuracies of those systems.

Wrong again. Sorry but I have the experience in my shop of beginning players to whom I have taught CTE to who did in fact improve their pocketing after learning CTE.

Furthermore way back before CTE I taught several low level players another of Hal's methods and all of them improved dramatically.

It's a logical mistake to assume what other people will say and do with information and instruction. You cannot simply paint everyone with the same brush and know how they will interpret knowledge given to them.

You say that the systems are inaccurate and yet neither you nor anyone else that I am aware of has been able to show where those inaccuracies are? No one has demonstrated them. All I see is people studying them and demonstrating the accuracy of them. All I see is that those who were most diligent in their study and diligent in their mechanics are the best performers on the tests and challenges presented.

Logic would dictate that on this forum there would be far more players who play without any formal system. With far more players those without a system should still be well represented in the upper ranks of performances on those tests. Yet the top performers are all system users. Wouldn't there also be some motivation for those who don't think systems are of much or any use to at least show their prowess and show that they can perform equally as well without using any type of conscious method to aim?

I would think so. Maybe there isn't sufficient motivation to demonstrate their ability or perhaps they don't have that ability. Those who like systems and who have been diligent in their training with them are keen to show their prowess and accuracy. Those, like you, who claim that the systems are not accurate, seem to be not motivated to actually prove those claims with physical demonstrations. Maybe in your attempts to prove inaccuracy we could actually make some observations that are helpful to everyone. But as long as you only make claims with no attempt at physical proof we can't know.
 
You agree to the requirement that the judges must have a genius or above IQ level and a math or physics background and I can guarantee you will get taken up on that bet. Outside of that I doubt you will get any takers because it takes a certain intelligence level and knowledge skill set to see the reality here and they aren't going to agree to any judges that may not have the intelligence to get it.

The first registered genius that says CTE PRO ONE works as described will be criticized by you for some reason for his findings.

Stan Shuffett
 
... there's never been any proof that CTE is not geometrically correct.
Our good friend Patrick Johnson is still banned from AZB (until next January I think), but he still lurks and reads. He just sent me the e-mail quoted below in response to requests and statements like the one quoted above. Since he went through the trouble to write it, I told him I would share it with the forum. To be clear, this is from him and not me. I personally think it is futile attempting to prove or disprove the "geometric correctness" of an "aiming system" like any of the versions of CTE. As has been proven by countless years of hostile debates, questions and answers like these are usually not helpful.

Regardless of what people think or don't think, these "aiming systems" can be beneficial to some (and maybe even many) people (probably in some part or in whole to the benefits of "aiming systems"). For those people, that is all that really matters.

Regards,
Dave


quote of e-mail from Patrick Johnson (pertaining to Stan's Pro-One version of CTE):


Proof That CTE Is Not “Geometrically Correct”

CTE is not geometrically correct because it’s not geometrically complete. A geometrically complete definition of a shot alignment would define its geometry in a way that would permit no other conclusion.

An example of this is geometrically defining a triangle of a certain size and shape. To do that at least three geometric elements are needed: the length of one side and its two adjoining angles, the lengths of two sides and their shared adjoining angle, or the lengths of all three sides.

CTE’s instructions need four elements defined:

1. the line from CB center to OB edge (the CTE line)
2. the line from CB edge to one of the OB fractions (the “aimpoint” line)
3. a “center CB” line between the CTE and “aimpoint” lines
4. a standard pivot from the “center CB” line to the actual shot line

To be geometrically complete/correct, each of these elements must be defined in a way that can be universally understood and precisely replicated.

The most obvious missing piece in CTE’s geometrical definition (not the only one) is the geometric definition for the “center CB” line (#3). The system says the “center CB” line is to be found “through practice and experience” using the CTE and aimpoint lines in an undefined way. “Practice and experience” are not specific instructions of any kind, much less a precise geometric definition.

Other missing pieces in CTE’s geometrical definition are (#2) choosing the appropriate OB fraction for the “aimpoint line”, which is also learned “through practice and experience”, and (#4) the “standard pivot”, which is not described precisely enough to be replicated by everybody in the same way.

These “geometrically undefined” elements are where it’s assumed that “feel” (aka “learned through practice and experience”) enters the CTE aiming equation.
 
Last edited:
they could have Einstein aiming for them and still "dog it"

The first registered genius that says CTE PRO ONE works as described will be criticized by you for some reason for his findings.

Stan Shuffett

The problem with geniuses is they can't hit the cue ball straight.....so they could have Einstein aiming for them and still "dog it". ;)
 
the game of pool is geometrically complete/correct?

To be geometrically complete/correct, each of these elements must be defined in a way that can be universally understood and precisely replicated.

Do you believe, according to your guidelines that the game of pool is geometrically complete/correct?
 
You seriously do NOT think the ones I listed are not in the upper ranges of real world IQs?
Scottjen, an AZ member, has a purported 160 IQ and has said multiple times that CTE PRO ONE works as described. He is as fair and as tough a critic as they come.

Stan Shuffett

If he believes that your system finds the correct aiming line, without any adjustment from the user based on experience, then he either is not a 160 IQ, or has little math background, or hasn't truly thought this out, or most likely some combination of those three.
 
Do you believe, according to your guidelines that the game of pool is geometrically complete/correct?
If you are asking me, my answer is: I honestly don't have a clue what that means.

If you are asking PJ, who wrote the text you quoted, he is not able to reply since he is banned.

Regardless, many aspects of pool require tremendous "judgment," "feel," "perception," and "intuition." That's one thing that makes our great game so beautiful and difficult to master.

The Game is the Humility Creator. ;)

Regards,
Dave
 
The problem with geniuses is they can't hit the cue ball straight.....so they could have Einstein aiming for them and still "dog it". ;)

I like that! CJ.

I am confident that many, many high IQ interested students will continue to put their stamp of approval on CTE PRO ONE and it's connectedness to the right angles of regulation tables.

Stan Shuffett
 
PJ can't post a response CJ...

Do you believe, according to your guidelines that the game of pool is geometrically complete/correct?

I don't understand PJ arguing against this system though considering he was one of Hal Houle's fractional aiming system nut huggers...

This system from what I understand is a hell of a lot more complete than hal's fractional aiming system.

I haven't looked at this system. I don't need it. I don't want to screw around and mess up my stroke thinking about other things.

If it is a fractional system at ALL, then it can't be geometrically correct.

It might still work on the vast majority of equipment, but it can't be geometrically correct, and it will also become less useful the tighter the conditions become.

Jaden
 
If he believes that your system finds the correct aiming line, without any adjustment from the user based on experience, then he either is not a 160 IQ, or has little math background, or hasn't truly thought this out, or most likely some combination of those three.


He has said that for 2 years plus.

Stan Shuffett
 
Our good friend Patrick Johnson is still banned from AZB (until next January I think), but he still lurks and reads. He just sent me the e-mail quoted below in response to requests and statements like the one quoted above. Since he went through the trouble to write it, I told him I would share it with the forum. To be clear, this is from him and not me. I personally think it is futile attempting to prove or disprove the "geometric correctness" of an "aiming system" like any of the versions of CTE. As has been proven by countless years of hostile debates, questions and answers like these are usually not helpful.

Regardless of what people think or don't think, these "aiming systems" can be beneficial to some (and maybe even many) people (probably in some part due in part or whole to the benefits of "aiming systems"). For those people, that is all that really matters.

Regards,
Dave


quote of e-mail from Patrick Johnson (pertaining to Stan's Pro-One version of CTE):


Proof That CTE Is Not “Geometrically Correct”

CTE is not geometrically correct because it’s not geometrically complete. A geometrically complete definition of a shot alignment would define its geometry in a way that would permit no other conclusion.

An example of this is geometrically defining a triangle of a certain size and shape. To do that at least three geometric elements are needed: the length of one side and its two adjoining angles, the lengths of two sides and their shared adjoining angle, or the lengths of all three sides.

CTE’s instructions need four elements defined:

1. the line from CB center to OB edge (the CTE line)
2. the line from CB edge to one of the OB fractions (the “aimpoint” line)
3. a “center CB” line between the CTE and “aimpoint” lines
4. a standard pivot from the “center CB” line to the actual shot line

To be geometrically complete/correct, each of these elements must be defined in a way that can be universally understood and precisely replicated.

The most obvious missing piece in CTE’s geometrical definition (not the only one) is the geometric definition for the “center CB” line (#3). The system says the “center CB” line is to be found “through practice and experience” using the CTE and aimpoint lines in an undefined way. “Practice and experience” are not specific instructions of any kind, much less a precise geometric definition.

Other missing pieces in CTE’s geometrical definition are (#2) choosing the appropriate OB fraction for the “aimpoint line”, which is also learned “through practice and experience”, and (#4) the “standard pivot”, which is not described precisely enough to be replicated by everybody in the same way.

These “geometrically undefined” elements are where it’s assumed that “feel” (aka “learned through practice and experience”) enters the CTE aiming equation.

Technically posting for banned members is itself a bannable offense according to the rules. Pretty sure you will get a pass though. Just letting you know since Pat is using you as a proxy.

Pat is wrong however. The instructions can be precisely explained and replicated. Just because he is unwilling to try does not mean that other people cannot understand the instructions and replicate the movements.

Practice and experience refers to using the reference shots to understand the perceptions. You must train yourself to perceive the lines according to the system. Just as one trains themselves to perceive lines using ghostball. Do you know how to aim the type of extreme spin shot that cuts a frozen ball at more than 90 degrees the first time you try it? Of course not, you learn that shot by trial and error UNLESS someone teaches you a different method of aiming it.

For example one of those methods would be to split the cueball and aim right at the edge and then pivot to the inside of the cue ball. Do this and watch the ball slice right in. You might have to adjust the pivot point slightly but once found then you have gained a reliable and consistent way to make that shot.

Thus a little practice gives you the experience of knowing that this method works. You don't need the geometry and physics behind why it works to know it works because you can demonstrate it consistently.

Lastly, Pat is a fidget aimer.

His method of aiming is to get down and fidget around until it just looks right. Tell him to take your test and see how he scores. I am pretty confident he won't beat any of the top system aimers who are at the top of your rankings.
 
Live and let live my friends.

Put your poo filter on, try what seems plausible and go with what improves your game.

I personally use the Gatorade Lite (G2), then Miller Lite, then power bar system. Rinse/repeat.
 
I have the experience in my shop of beginning players to whom I have taught CTE to who did in fact improve their pocketing after learning CTE.
The system gets them in the ball park vicinity of a pocket so of course some of the balls will fall by chance. A big portion of them are going right into the rail though. And the reason is because they don't yet have the aiming experience to correct for the inaccuracies of the system.

You say that the systems are inaccurate and yet neither you nor anyone else that I am aware of has been able to show where those inaccuracies are?
Wrong. I and many others have shown many times where these inaccuracies are. You just aren't smart enough to get it. Not a knock, for any given person there are things that are beyond their understanding, just more for some than others. This one is beyond yours. Just above this post Dr. Dave quoted one from Pat Johnson for example. He perfectly points out where the inaccuracies are, but it is beyond your scope of understanding. I can't control what you are capable of understanding, and herein lies the problem. It comes back to some people simply aren't smart enough or knowledgeable enough to understand some things, and it's not a knock, it's just life.
 
I can't help but wonder if he truly understood how advanced the game could be

If you are asking me, my answer is: I honestly don't have a clue what that means.

If you are asking PJ, who wrote the text you quoted, he is not able to reply since he is banned.

Regardless, many aspects of pool require tremendous "judgment," "feel," "perception," and "intuition." That's one thing that makes our great game so beautiful and difficult to master.

The Game is the Humility Creator. ;)

Regards,
Dave

I was asking you, and I'll ask the forum as well. My experience tells me that "yes" the game is correct and complete......whomever created it is certainly impressive in many ways, and I can't help but wonder if he truly understood how advanced the game could be (both mentally and physically). 'The Game is my Teacher'
 
For example one of those methods would be to split the cueball and aim right at the edge and then pivot to the inside of the cue ball. Do this and watch the ball slice right in. You might have to adjust the pivot point slightly but once found then you have gained a reliable and consistent way to make that shot.
You just admitted exactly what the naysayers have been saying. It gets you in the vicinity, and then you have to use your own aiming experience to correct for the inaccuracy.

And on top of it, you have a ton of memorization to do with this method. For A shot angle, with B shot speed, with C distance from cue ball to object ball, and D amount of english on the ball, you have to figure out (the using your own aiming judgment part of it) the correct pivot point, and then memorize it for future reference. Change any one of these variables and you are back to having to figure out the new pivot point (through aiming experience) and then having to memorize that one as well. Nothing works without using your own aiming experience.

Lastly, Pat is a fidget aimer.
Isn't what you describe doing above just a form of "fidget aiming"?
 
Last edited:
The system gets them in the ball park vicinity of a pocket so of course some of the balls will fall by chance. A big portion of them are going right into the rail though. And the reason is because they don't yet have the aiming experience to correct for the inaccuracies of the system.

Here is the difference between you and me I think. I have the actual experience of experimenting with beginners to see if they could learn aiming systems and if they could improve their pocketing skills. So I think you speak from a speculative stance whereas I speak from a an experienced position.


Wrong. I and many others have shown many times where these inaccuracies are. You just aren't smart enough to get it. Not a knock, for any given person there are things that are beyond their understanding, just more for some than others. This one is beyond yours. Just above this post Dr. Dave quoted one from Pat Johnson for example. He perfectly points out where the inaccuracies are, but it is beyond your scope of understanding. I can't control what you are capable of understanding, and herein lies the problem. It comes back to some people simply aren't smart enough or knowledgeable enough to understand some things, and it's not a knock, it's just life.

I know I am stupid. Last time I did an IQ test I think it was in the 40s. Thus I rely on practical experience on the pool table to inform me of the accuracy of a method. I rely on my ability to understand the instructions then to follow them then to analyze the results and hone my technique until I am certain I am doing it right.

Sorry I don't crack open a math book to try to figure out how to use Ghost Ball, I simply follow the instructions. I don't crack open a book on perception in 3d space to understand CTE I simply follow the instructions.

I can only control what I am capable of doing. I can control my own body and observe the results, I can communicate instructions to others and observe the results. I can report on those results.

That is direct experience versus speculation.

To use your logic, fire should not have been possible because those who made and used fire didn't know how to properly define combustion. You can't possibly have fire if you don't know the proper names of the accelerants and WHY they are flammable. It's not conceivable to you that it's possible to have a phenomena that is real but not explainable by your knowledge level. I get it that you likely think that you're smart and thus everything must fit into what you know or it's not "real" or must work according to your idea of how it works. That's understandable, lots of "smart" people think that way.

To illustrate it let me tell you this joke.

A shepherd was herding his flock in a remote pasture when suddenly a brand-new BMW advanced out of the dust cloud towards him. The driver, a young man in a Broni suit, Gucci shoes, Ray Ban sunglasses and YSL tie, leaned out the window and asked the shepherd,..........

"If I tell you exactly how many sheep you have in your flock, will you give me one?"

The shepherd looked at the man, obviously a yuppie, then looked at his peacefully-grazing flock and calmly answered, "Sure."

The yuppie parked his car, whipped out his IBM Thinkpad and connected it to a cell phone, then he surfed to a NASA page on the internet where he called up a GPS satellite navigation system, scanned the area, and then opened up a database and an Excel spreadsheet with complex formulas. He sent an email on his Blackberry and, after a few minutes, received a response. Finally, he prints out a 130 page report on his miniaturized printer then turns to the shepherd and says,.........

"You have exactly 1586 sheep".

"That is correct; take one of the sheep" said the shepherd.

He watches the young man select one of the animals and bundle it into his car.

Then the shepherd says: "If I can tell you exactly what your business is, will you give me back my animal?"

"OK, why not" answered the young man.

"Clearly, you are a consultant" said the shepherd.

"That's correct" says the yuppie, "but how did you guess that?"

"No guessing required" answers the shepherd. "You turned up here although nobody called you. You want to get paid for an answer I already knew, to a question I never asked, and you don't know crap about my business.... Now give me back my dog".
 
You just admitted exactly what the naysayers have been saying. It gets you in the vicinity, and then you have to use your own aiming experience to correct for the inaccuracy.


Doesn't "fidget aiming" precisely describe what you describe yourself doing in the first quote?

Not at all.

God bless you all for trying though.

I mean it truly you have warrior spirits.

Let's break this down. If a man give you a method you MIGHT have to work at it for a little bit until you get it down but once you got it the method is yours forever and works CONSISTENTLY.

That method is your baseline. If you end up on a table with unfamiliar conditions then you go to your baseline and MIGHT have to tweak it a little. Once tweaked then your method works CONSISTENTLY all day and night on that table.

It's not fidgeting to make whatever tweaks are needed to get in perfect tune with conditions.

I promise you that if we measured Pat's fidgeting method against Stan's CTE/ProOne method then Stan will come to the shot line faster and be correct much more often than Pat will. That is to say that Stan's method is much more accurate than Pat's method of finding the shot line.

Bet against that if you really hate your money. And you can 3:1 on the money if we include bank shots in there. We can go to one of those virtual reality tables that projects the lines onto the real pool table like virtual pool and Stan can get into shooting position and Pat can get into shooting position. The machine would then project the lines and see which one is right and how long it took them to get there.

Now let's take this vicinity argument..... OF COURSE an aiming system gets you in the vicinity because that's the whole purpose of them. All of them do that. Accuracy is determined by how well they do it. As it happens some of them are extremely accurate at putting the shooter right on the shot line.
 
Technically posting for banned members is itself a bannable offense according to the rules. Pretty sure you will get a pass though. Just letting you know since Pat is using you as a proxy.

Pat is wrong however. The instructions can be precisely explained and replicated. Just because he is unwilling to try does not mean that other people cannot understand the instructions and replicate the movements.

Practice and experience refers to using the reference shots to understand the perceptions. You must train yourself to perceive the lines according to the system. Just as one trains themselves to perceive lines using ghostball. Do you know how to aim the type of extreme spin shot that cuts a frozen ball at more than 90 degrees the first time you try it? Of course not, you learn that shot by trial and error UNLESS someone teaches you a different method of aiming it.

For example one of those methods would be to split the cueball and aim right at the edge and then pivot to the inside of the cue ball. Do this and watch the ball slice right in. You might have to adjust the pivot point slightly but once found then you have gained a reliable and consistent way to make that shot.

Thus a little practice gives you the experience of knowing that this method works. You don't need the geometry and physics behind why it works to know it works because you can demonstrate it consistently.

Lastly, Pat is a fidget aimer.

His method of aiming is to get down and fidget around until it just looks right. Tell him to take your test and see how he scores. I am pretty confident he won't beat any of the top system aimers who are at the top of your rankings.


Maybe Pat should come up with an alias?

Hey, Pat, if you do it just remember: "Roadie" is taken.

Lou Figueroa
bannable offense
lol
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top