oh no. Ugly is bad. It's all about purity and beautiful patterns.
It's Fred Astaire vs Dancing with the Stars.
Lou Figueroa
The True Record Hi Run
- Thread starter billinboston
- Start date
oh no. Ugly is bad. It's all about purity and beautiful patterns.
It's Fred Astaire vs Dancing with the Stars.
Lou Figueroa
and if you're going to use an analogy you should know what you're talking about.
High schoolers today don't hardly ever run a sub-4 min.mile.
Jim Ryun's record stood for 36 years, was just broken a couple of years ago.
Webb Breaks Ryun’s High School Mile Record - This Day in Track and Field
May 27, 2012
By Walt Murphy, Walt Murphy's News and Results Service (wmurphy25@aol.com)
(c) Copyright 2012-all rights reserved. May not be reprinted or retransmitted without permission.
(May 27) -- South Lakes, Va. High School senior Alan Webb, with the able assistance of coach Scott Raczko, fulfilled the great promise he had shown since his sophomore year by running 3:53.43 at the 2001 Prefontaine Classic in Eugene, Oregon, to break Jim Ryun's 36-year old National HS Record in the mile (3:55.3).
Don't you think if Jim Ryun had the same training advantages that this kid had, that he could have run as fast?
I think your argument about old v new would be better suited to a game like 3C, which is still practiced to the point of exclusivity by a host of players and at which regular competitions up to the world championship level are still held with regularity.
Willie Hoppe, as great a player as he was, has clearly been surpassed by present day players who play the game with similar intensity. There is no parallel for 14.1.
Lou Figueroa
And this shows that you completely failed to understand what I said. Nothing is dependent on the skills of today's players. I will restate what I am saying again. How much somebody dominated in one era, is not in any way, shape or form proof or even evidence that they would be the best player in another era. Yet several people tried to argue exactly that. Talk about lack of logic...
This is where my 4 minute mile guy analogy came in to try to help some people get it. Just because he was so dominant in the mile in his own era, is not evidence that he would be the best today. How much somebody dominated in their own era is absolutely irrelevant to how they would compare to people in another era.
I think 'suck' is a little harse. I don't think too many people would say Jesse Owens or Carl Lewis would suck today. Their times during their era might be beat by many today, but these guys have so much more technology and advancements in the sport. If Jesse and Carl happened to live in this era, there is no doubt that their times would be better. Usain Bolt might still beat them, but we will never know. That why this discussion is so fun.
With this thinking, you pretty much are saying anything in the past sucks....The Atari, brick phone...ok, maybe some things do suck, but they were revolutionary for their time.
They had a poll in the carom forum about Hoppe versus Ceulemans.
I wouldn't vote.
I said that if you reversed the birthdates, they would have still dominated
their eras.
I feel the same about straight pool players....and greats of other disciplines.
Today's champions got their quick starts on the shoulders of giants.
Today's people aren't smarter, on average, but they do have the advantage
of a body of accumulated knowledge.
We are talking primarily about best player in regards to high runs in regards to could a player of today beat Mosconi's record. For prettiest game I might agree with you. But for whether Mosconi was so good that he has a run so high that no player today could break it? Nah, several players today could break it.
You are too smart for this Lou. My argument has nothing to do with and is not dependent on any particular game, or any particular era, or any particular players. It holds true regardless of game, regardless of era, regardless of individuals being discussed. And that contention is simply that how much someone dominated in one era, is not evidence that they would be the best in another era. Nothing more, nothing less. And I only brought this up because SEVERAL people offered Mosconi's dominance in his era as evidence that he is better than anyone today. I know you are smart enough to see the flaw in that logic and I was trying to explain it to them in a number of ways.
Ok, I think I see the confusion and where some people went wrong. I am comparing Mosconi's level of play at the time he set the high run record with the level of play from the best players today. Some of you are trying to say Mosconi would play better if he were around today than he did back in the day in his prime. Totally different subject, totally different debate.
The discussion has always been about could players of today beat Mosconi's record? So the Mosconi I am comparing to today's players is the actual Mosconi with the actual abilities he had back in his era when the record was set, not some imaginary Mosconi of the future that may or may not have played better. Totally different debate.
The discussion has always been about could players of today beat Mosconi's record? So the Mosconi I am comparing to today's players is the actual Mosconi with the actual abilities he had back in his era when the record was set, not some imaginary Mosconi of the future that may or may not have played better. Totally different debate.
It's the debate that makes sense.
Who wants to talk about how a 17th century French or Japanese
swordsman would do against a modern commando with an Uzi?
I agree that it is an interesting debate in it's own right but I don't think it is the one that makes sense at all in this context. This was all about could players of today beat Mosconi's record high run. So by default you are comparing them to the Mosconi from back then because that is when he set the record. Whether you think they could beat the record or not, that is the Mosconi you are comparing them to, because that is the Mosconi that set it.
I do agree that if Mosconi had instead been born much later and today was the era of his prime he would most likely play better today than he actually did in his actual real life back then. But whether a Mosconi born later and in his prime today would still be number one today is a separate debate and one that I certainly am not wanting to get sidetracked on at the moment as I first need to recover from this one...lol.
That is exactly my point,well said.
This is why I think that at least a couple or 3 players of todays generation could play as good or better than Mosconi, and not just in 9Ball or other rotation games, but in 14.1 as well, as long as they could have dedicated their life to play 14.1
To me watching Orcollo run 141 the 2nd day he played Straight Pool, justified the point poolplaya9 is trying to get across.
What we will never know is if Mosconi would had been the greatest if he woulda been born in our era, but what we do know (or at least I believe), is that he would not have been the best player of today.
In my opinion.
I think the top straight pool players and even the ones that don't particularly play straight pool but are top players have way more firepower.
Appleton broke the high run record in tournament competition and he's been playing pool for less than 10 years.He's been playing Straight pool for even less time at an average of maybe 1 week per year, the rest of weeks of the year he's playing 9Ball or 10ball only. He won the Derby City Classic 14.1 challenge in 2006 or 2007, and that was the first time he played Straight pool in his life)
He may not have played 100 games in his life time yet.
Is that not prove enough?
This is why I think that at least a couple or 3 players of todays generation could play as good or better than Mosconi, and not just in 9Ball or other rotation games, but in 14.1 as well, as long as they could have dedicated their life to play 14.1
To me watching Orcollo run 141 the 2nd day he played Straight Pool, justified the point poolplaya9 is trying to get across.
What we will never know is if Mosconi would had been the greatest if he woulda been born in our era, but what we do know (or at least I believe), is that he would not have been the best player of today.
In my opinion.
I think the top straight pool players and even the ones that don't particularly play straight pool but are top players have way more firepower.
Appleton broke the high run record in tournament competition and he's been playing pool for less than 10 years.He's been playing Straight pool for even less time at an average of maybe 1 week per year, the rest of weeks of the year he's playing 9Ball or 10ball only. He won the Derby City Classic 14.1 challenge in 2006 or 2007, and that was the first time he played Straight pool in his life)
He may not have played 100 games in his life time yet.
Is that not prove enough?
I find it shocking every time I read this. FYI, Orcullo played in the 2008 World 14.1 event in New Brunswick, NJ, and finished fifth. He has also played in numerous 14.1 challenge events, including the 2013 DCC 14.1 challenge, in which he came second to Max Eberle. Dennis is not new to 14.1.
Actually, I watched that run, too, when I was at the Derby.
Throughout this thread, therecave been a lot of "I think"' coulds, shoulds, if and so on.
These are weasel words used to make one seem to be making a valid arguement when this is not true.
Everything discussed is pure speculation and there is no way to prove any of the statements made, but some sure sound as if they are speaking with authority when mostly just talking out their ass.
These are weasel words used to make one seem to be making a valid arguement when this is not true.
Everything discussed is pure speculation and there is no way to prove any of the statements made, but some sure sound as if they are speaking with authority when mostly just talking out their ass.
Weasel words is a bit strong.....a lot of advancements started with speculation and
Imagination.
If you think empirical iknowledge is the only true knowledge then disregard quantum physics
and don't play poker.
Understanding comes from within.
And I'm enjoying this thread immensely.....we can all learn.
I agree that it is an interesting debate in it's own right but I don't think it is the one that makes sense at all in this context. This was all about could players of today beat Mosconi's record high run. So by default you are comparing them to the Mosconi from back then because that is when he set the record. Whether you think they could beat the record or not, that is the Mosconi you are comparing them to, because that is the Mosconi that set it.
I do agree that if Mosconi had instead been born much later and today was the era of his prime he would most likely play better today than he actually did in his actual real life back then. But whether a Mosconi born later and in his prime today would still be number one today is a separate debate and one that I certainly am not wanting to get sidetracked on at the moment as I first need to recover from this one...lol.
The title of this thread refers to the TRUE high run...so I prefer to look at it at this level.
.....and I'm prepared to have my mind changed...but it'll take some doing.
To me, the longest drive in history may belong to a Scot from the 1800s......
...he drove a ball 365 yards.
But it was before the days of gutta percha...he was using a leather wrapped feather-filled
golf ball and hit it with a hickory shafted club.
So I feel there is some merit in thinking this might be the best drive so far.
I guess what I'm saying in this whole thing is this: Whether I was born in 1980 or 1950, I'm still going to really enjoy a plate of chili cheese tater tots. Some things are the same regardless of the year. Tots didn't arrive on the scene until '53 however.
Cool story Marc. Can you beat Dennis yet ?
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Cool story Marc. Can you beat Dennis yet ?
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On a more serious note, it's wrong thinking to put the 526 in the same category as numerous world titles and Hall of Fame membership. Too much stock is put into it. I hope if it falls it happens in the Philippines under a tarpaulin with about 50 locals tight around with a few roosters crowing. And after its over they sign a witness sheet then go back to their lives and homes without knowing what type of shitstorm is about to ensue...
Well that won't happen, but one can hope.
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Well that won't happen, but one can hope.
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