The True Record Hi Run

[Lonestar_jim]

And please no reprimands on my reading comprehension; #9. Thanks.

I do acknowledge Mosconi's lack of overall game compared to some of his peers. i.e. Banking and 1 pocket traps ? Experts please address this. Surely his main goal was to dominate 14.1 and just let other games go to the others.

 

[MapleMan]

And please no reprimands on my reading comprehension; #9. Thanks.

I do acknowledge Mosconi's lack of overall game compared to some of his peers. i.e. Banking and 1 pocket traps ? Experts please address this. Surely his main goal was to dominate 14.1 and just let other games go to the others.

To my knowledge, not expert knowledge, willie looked down on the other games

 

[lfigueroa]

To my knowledge, not expert knowledge, willie looked down on the other games

Mosconi thought the other games were either gimmicks, like 1pocket, or too simple, like 9ball.

There is the oft told story of Fats coming into a Philly pool hall one night in the late 40's, with Baby Face Whitlow, and was mouthing off about how good he was. So someone told Willie to play him and shut him up, but Fats would only play 1pocket. So Willie played him for $50 a game, beat him five straight, and loaned him train fair to get back to NY.

I believe there is another story of a hustler coming through Philly and playing Mosconi 1pocket and after after losing something like nine games in a row calls his backer up for more dough saying: this guy knows nothing about 1pocket, he just keeps running out.

Lou Figueroa

 

[BasementDweller]

IMO, long runs are all about how easy you make it. Mosconi made it the easiest.

Lou Figueroa

Ultimately, this is why the game of 14.1 is a dead game for the pros -- as it should be.

It's just too easy for them. If someone that has never played the game can run 150 and out in a competition then the game just isn't challenging enough at the highest levels and that's pretty much the case for the current crop of top tier players.

There are other games that require greater overall skill than 14.1. Games that require players to push their ball pocketing skills to greater heights and games that even require greater cue ball control -- how about one-pocket and rotation? I think this is why today's top players can take up 14.1 and very quickly run a 100 balls.

This is also why we will NEVER see guys that could run through a rack of 14.1 like Mosconi and players of his era could. They grew up playing this game. I bet in their formative years they had absolutely beautiful 20 ball runs. Today's players didn't spend their time struggling from 20 ball run to 30 ball run to 40 ball run. Instead they played rotation games and worked on being able to fire in every shot on the table and spin the cue ball around 40 rails for position. These are just different worlds, worlds that really can't be compared anymore.

Back to Mosconi...from what I gather about him - he was an artist as much as he was a player. He had a grace around the table that you just don't see anymore -- he was part pool player and part dancer. This grace also carried over to the table -- no wasted energy and no wasted movement -- everything just gliding along so smoothly.

Forget about comparing 100 ball runs of Mosconi with any of today's players. Instead I just want to see any of today's players place their favorite break shot on the table and break the balls on command and run them out....on LIVE TV. How many of today's players would be confident enough in their 14.1 game that they could do this? How about doing it 20 years after their prime?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ts7YqHRrjc#t=6m05s

Maybe I'm selling them a bit short – I don’t know.

 

[sjm]

Good points - but you couldn't run 200 in competition in the time when Mosconi, et al
were competing unless you were waaaay behind in a block format, or you started
the game by taking about 20 intentional scratches . Would you agree that if there were a format
that accommodated it, Willie would have run 200 many times?
And several other players as well.

Dale

If the standard race in competition was to 1,000 in Willie's day, I believe he'd have run 1,000 and out somewhere along the way.

But again, Willie beat fields that were silly-strong. Jimmy Caras, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Eddie Kelly, Luther Lassiter, Babe Cranfield and other legends of straight pool were in his path year after year. That's what made Willie great.

Anyone who suggests that the fields of today are the toughest ever needs to be reminded of this:

Mike Sigel, who to me is the only player of our generation who can even be mentioned in the same breath as Mosconi, used to win his 14.1 titles against fields that were the toughest in the game's history. The fields in the late 1970's and early 1980's included the likes of Ray Martin, Allen Hopkins, Steve Mizerak, Dan DiLiberto, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Jim Rempe, Nick Varner, Lou Butera, Dallas West and Luther Lassiter. That's eleven future BCA Hall of Famers that Sigel had to contend with year after year....and there were plenty of other great players in those fields such as Frank McGown, Pete Margo, Dick Lane, Pat Fleming, Jack Colavita and Larry Lisciotti. Back then, there were guys who had run 150 and out in competition who couldn't even qualify for all of the biggest 14.1 events.

Thorsten Hohmann, the best 14.1 player of this generation by my assessment, is a maginificent player, but is not yet worthy of mention with the likes of Mosconi and Sigel. Of course, that could change depending on what he accomplishes before his competitive career is over.

Willie beat them all, time after time after time. Greenleaf, I'm told, did the same, and is rightfully celebrated.

 

[Mr. Bond]

If being the guy who broke Mosconi's record isn't enough incentive, you don't deserve to break it, IMO.
Lou Figueroa

I second th at emotion.
Last time I checked, there was no pot of gold waiting on the top of Everest, yet some people train for years, spend large amounts of money, and then risk their lives, just to be able to say " I did it ".

Being a record holder is its own reward, and there is nary a pool player on earth that wouldn't love to hold that record.

... They would have to buy an equivalent 8 ft Brunswick table and put it in their house, because nobody is going to spend weeks at the pool hall trying this. And that would likely require getting rid of or at least moving and storing the 9 ft that they currently have. Then they would have to devote their lives spending all day for several weeks trying to set the record. The whole time keeping up with the hassle of having video cameras rolling at all times because the world will demand proof. And all this just for the heck of it, earning little if anything or even taking a loss for their efforts, just so they can claim a record which is for all practical purposes meaningless from a game that has been dead at least 40 years? To think that anybody would make any serious effort to break the record just doesn't make sense. Now offer a reward that makes it worth it and you will see that record get beat, and quickly..

-The game isn't dead. It's not as popular as other games currently but its not dead.
(Neither is 3cushion, Kelly pool, cowboy, etc etc.)

-The record would not be and is not meaningless, lest we would not be having this conversation.

-don't be silly. Breaking the record would not require buying a new table or video taping yourself, and it wouldn't count even if you did all that. Not to mention the fact that running balls ALONE would be 10x easier than doing it in an actual game against someone. All it would take is the ability to do it, and an opportunity with witnesses, which happens all the time,(derby city comes to mind).

 

[cueman]

In my books, the record is 200, set last summer by Darren Appleton in competition.
I do, however, hope I'm present if Appleton's record is bettered.

Johnny Archer ran well over 200 in a tournament. He was on a hundred and something when the match ended and everyone started cheering for him to finish his run. He ran balls until they let him know they needed to get the tournament back going and he missed a shot seemingly on purpose. And Johnny was not known as a straight pool player.

Dallas West once said he felt he could break the 526 record if anyone would put some kind of financial incentive on it.

I have a suggestion, if people feel they can beat it, have a $1000 dollar entry fee challenge, and let the best straight poolers show up and give them all one week of 4 hour days to set their highest run. Pay the top three places and see if anyone beats it on todays faster equipment.

 

[sjm]

Johnny Archer ran well over 200 in a tournament. He was on a hundred and something when the match ended and everyone started cheering for him to finish his run.

Once a run reaches the point that a miss carries no consequences, it should no longer be considered a run made in competition. Once the match is over, anything from that point on is practice.

I remember cheering for Darren Appleton NOT to continue shooting after his 200 and out a year ago against Bustamante. The match was over and it was time to move on.

 

[smashmouth]

that record has never really meant much to me nor impressed, it's more guiness type stuff than anything else imo

exhibition record on non standard table, period

 

[Lonestar_jim]

These 526 threads can be searched through this forum...and I have followed at least 4 in the past, but I always gain a little knowledge or insight when a new thread is started. Thanks to all who contribute !

Sent from my SCH-S968C using Tapatalk

 

[Poolplaya9]

This is just silly... Name one

Reyes. There is one of them, and there is more than that. Remember, as I clearly explained, I'm talking about skill on a table as opposed to straight pool knowledge, skill meaning how straight you shoot, how well you play position, etc. I think a few guys today could go and break the high run record in a matter of weeks or perhaps months if they had enough desire to. But even if they couldn't today, it would only be because they don't yet have the full knowledge for the best way to play the games and patterns etc. But guess what, they could learn that, and pretty quickly if they needed to. They have more skill, and the ability to get the same knowledge. More skill + same knowledge = would be better than Mosconi. If you don't think Efren can or at least could have shattered the high run record, or could have given Mosconi all he could handle at the very least, and possible dominated him at the best, then you are out of your mind, IMO of course.

 

[Poolplaya9]

If records are to be broken, it's very simple. Mosconi = 15 Time World Straight Pool Champion. If he was alive today I'm sure he'd just say "NEXT!"

As I explained in a previous post, how far ahead you were of your peers in one era, has nothing to do with how well you would stack up in another era. You can be twice as good as everybody else at something, but sixty years later there might be fifty guys twice as good as you even though none of them are dominating the others.

 

[Poolplaya9]

IMO, long runs are all about how easy you make it. Mosconi made it the easiest.

Long runs are about the run length. Nothing more, nothing less. How it looks really doesn't matter at the end of the day. Now it may be true that the longest runs will look the best (or maybe not), but the result speaks for itself. Sorry, but if someone runs 626 on a 4x8 with 5" pockets and it doesn't look easy, they are still a better player than the guy that did 526 looking more "pretty". And for that matter, it can easily be argued that the 400+ balls runs on 4x9 diamonds that we have already had are a bigger accomplishment and show a better player with a higher level of skill than Mosconi's 526. Mosconi's best run ever record may have already been dethroned.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Yes, what you say is true about pool players and certainly Efren is arguably the greatest pool player of all time. However, the discipline we're specifically talking about is 14.1 and you are trying to compare guys that play that game once or twice a year with guys who spent a lifetime mastering it. Willie would smoke _____ (fill in modern era player of your choice and that includes Efren) in a long race or lock them in rooms with a table for $10K and see who produces the highest run in 48 hours. It's not going to be close.

Lou Figueroa

I don't think people took the time to read what I actually wrote, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough. By skill I was referring to physical skill, as in ball pocketing accuracy, position play accuracy, etc. I personally think there are several players, that even though they may not have the straight pool knowledge Mosconi had, could at the least hang right with him in match play, because their higher physical skill offsets their lack of knowledge of that game. I think there are several that even without the same knowledge could shatter his high run record right now this year. And this is because they have more physical skill (shoot straighter etc). And if they actually learned the game well, which they could easily do, they would be very clearly ahead of Mosconi and would have ranked above him back in the day if competing in the same tournaments.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Oh bullshit. You're a smart guy so please explain how players today have more skill ?

And please no reprimands on my reading comprehension; #9. Thanks.

I thought I had already been pretty darn clear what I meant by "more skill" before, but I just cleared it up a bit more in the posts immediately above this one.

And I only reprimanded the one guy on reading comprehension because he tried to made that claim to me, but it was in fact him that hadn't followed along and taken to time to comprehend or remember the conversation. Although I do think people should be called for it in general because it is generally due to laziness. People have no business participating in a discussion if they aren't willing or able to take the time to understand what was said previously. Just my opinion. :thumbup:

 

[Lonestar_jim]

Thanks for explaining #9. Time to start a prize fund to encourage pros to shoot for the record.

Sent from my SCH-S968C using Tapatalk

 

[Poolplaya9]

The record would not be and is not meaningless, lest we would not be having this conversation.

-don't be silly. Breaking the record would not require buying a new table or video taping yourself, and it wouldn't count even if you did all that. Not to mention the fact that running balls ALONE would be 10x easier than doing it in an actual game against someone. All it would take is the ability to do it, and an opportunity with witnesses, which happens all the time,(derby city comes to mind).

None of the people who currently have the ability to break the record find that it is worth their time and effort to do so. Go argue with them if you want to about how they should actually feel about the record. I'm guessing if I had the skill to do it I wouldn't bother either. And I think these guys already figure those that are smart know where they stand and that if they can run anywhere near 400 balls on a 4x9 diamond table without spending all that much time trying for high runs, then they damn sure could run 526 on a loose 4x8 if they put some effort into it.

Not sure why you figure making a record attempt would not require having to get a loose 4x8 in their home? Like I said, I highly doubt anyone wants to spend weeks at the pool hall all day trying this. They will want to do it from the comfort of their home.

Running balls alone is not any easier than what Mosconi did really. It wasn't a tournament, it was an exhibition which meant nothing. It was against a player that he easily outclassed significantly and had zero fear of. And at no point anywhere during the 526 balls did anyone else ever come to the table to shoot, nor would they have even if Mosconi had missed more than very shortly into the run as the game was long over. Mosconi made that run alone and uninterrupted and with zero pressures.

If somebody breaks the record at home alone and it is fully filmed for proof it would and should count as breaking the record.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Who'd win a 15-ball rotation game between Efren and Willie in their prime ?
Or one pocket ?

 

[Poolplaya9]

Last time I checked, there was no pot of gold waiting on the top of Everest, yet some people train for years, spend large amounts of money, and then risk their lives, just to be able to say " I did it ".

Being a record holder is its own reward, and there is nary a pool player on earth that wouldn't love to hold that record.

-The record would not be and is not meaningless, lest we would not be having this conversation.

It sounds to me like your position is basically "everybody wants to hold this record, and if they were capable of breaking it they would, and the fact that nobody has done it is proof that they can't."

Well, all I can say is get a $30,000 prize fund (or more) in escrow to be given to anyone who can break the record on video on a 4x8 table with 5" pockets and I don't think it will take all that long at all before you find out just how wrong you were. You are pretty connected in the industry and I think you could get this done pretty easily if you wanted to. I can personally think of several people (who you know) that I think would be willing to put up $10,000 each, and I'm sure there are many more that would do a minimum of $1,000 or more. A fund in excess of $30,000 wouldn't be that terribly difficult to achieve for you I don't think. You could even make stipulations on who owns the rights to the video as well so that it can be marketed and sold. My suggestion is a 50/50 split with the player. Make it happen.

On a side note, thanks for all that you do in documenting and preserving the history of billiards. It is much appreciated by myself and many, many others. Thanks.

 

[lfigueroa]

Ultimately, this is why the game of 14.1 is a dead game for the pros -- as it should be.

It's just too easy for them. If someone that has never played the game can run 150 and out in a competition then the game just isn't challenging enough at the highest levels and that's pretty much the case for the current crop of top tier players.

There are other games that require greater overall skill than 14.1. Games that require players to push their ball pocketing skills to greater heights and games that even require greater cue ball control -- how about one-pocket and rotation? I think this is why today's top players can take up 14.1 and very quickly run a 100 balls.

This is also why we will NEVER see guys that could run through a rack of 14.1 like Mosconi and players of his era could. They grew up playing this game. I bet in their formative years they had absolutely beautiful 20 ball runs. Today's players didn't spend their time struggling from 20 ball run to 30 ball run to 40 ball run. Instead they played rotation games and worked on being able to fire in every shot on the table and spin the cue ball around 40 rails for position. These are just different worlds, worlds that really can't be compared anymore.

Back to Mosconi...from what I gather about him - he was an artist as much as he was a player. He had a grace around the table that you just don't see anymore -- he was part pool player and part dancer. This grace also carried over to the table -- no wasted energy and no wasted movement -- everything just gliding along so smoothly.

Forget about comparing 100 ball runs of Mosconi with any of today's players. Instead I just want to see any of today's players place their favorite break shot on the table and break the balls on command and run them out....on LIVE TV. How many of today's players would be confident enough in their 14.1 game that they could do this? How about doing it 20 years after their prime?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ts7YqHRrjc#t=6m05s

Maybe I'm selling them a bit short – I don’t know.

I don't agree that 14.1 being too easy is why it died off. I believe what happened is that it was too tough actually, the lesser player having no chance against the better. And, people wanted a faster paced game, so 9ball became the rage. That there was an element of luck to it, didn't hurt.

And believe me, having watched US Opens, people are not trying out the game and running all that many 150 and outs in competition. Yes, the top dogs can run 100, but there is a vast ocean between that and being able to pull it off on demand.

Lou Figueroa