Curious on people thoughts as to a recent AZ experience.

[Poolplaya9]

it happens. best not to say you will buy until you have the cash to pay in hand to pay. avoids misunderstandings like this.

Are you kidding me? I think what you meant to say is it is best not to say you will hold an item for someone until a certain date if there is a chance you aren't willing to keep your word. There was zero misunderstanding here, only someone that didn't keep their word. Nobody can fault the seller for not wanting to wait a week when there was no absolute guarantee the buyer would come through. But he didn't have to agree to hold the item either--he chose to. Everybody can fault him for breaking his word. Don't agree to something you might not be willing to do. Simple. The only person that did anything wrong is this case was the seller.

 

[Poolplaya9]

So while I agree you should be a bit bitter that you lost on the product you wanted, from the seller's perspective, he might have dealt with something similar many times in the past, and had the prospective buyers flake out on him.

I think you are confusing two totally separate things. Nobody is mad at the seller for not wanting to wait for payment. They are upset that he lied and broke his word.

Had the seller said he wouldn't hold the item for the buyer, nobody would be complaining. He has that right. Everybody would understand that. But what he doesn't have the right to do is to agree to hold the item, and then sell it out from under the guy. If you don't want to hold an item because of flaky buyers then by all means don't agree to hold the item. No problem from anybody on that. But when you do agree to hold the item, then you need to hold the item. Breaking your word or lying on even doing a deal is just as deserving of negative feedback as breaking your word or lying about some detail in a deal (like the oh yeah the cue is straight when it is as crooked at the letter "S"). Lying is lying, and breaking your word is breaking your word, and it doesn't matter where in the deal it happened, it is still crappy behavior deserving of being noted.

 

[Black-Balled]

There is nobody on earth that is so dense that they didn't understand what "My only question is can you wait until around this time next week? I just paid a bunch of bills and get paid again next thursday" means. And that includes you as well. You know exactly what this explicitly meant.

Translation:
Seller: Hey I heard you were looking for x item. I have one and will sell it for y dollars. You want it?
Buyer: Yeah I definitely want it and will buy it but I don't have the money until next Thursday. Would you be willing to hold it for me until then?
Seller: Sure, no problem, I will do that.

I mean come on guy, think this out. What else on earth could it possibly mean when the buyer said "My only question is can you wait until around this time next week?" What do you think he means by wait around? It means hold the item. Even someone from another country who understood little English would understand what that means. You are just playing dumb for some reason because you know exactly what that meant (the only thing I can figure is so you can use the same semantic word game as an excuse when you do this same thing to someone else, but I hope I'm wrong).

You don't have any need whatsoever to ask if someone will accept your payment if they still happen to have the item later on down the road and didn't sell it in the mean time. Obviously they would. But if what you would like is for the seller to hold the item for you until then, then you do indeed have a need to ask, and that is exactly what this buyer did. And the seller agreed to it. And then the seller broke their deal.

I don't understand why you are pushing your opinion so vigorously. There is no absolute right or wrong in the case.

 

[Black-Balled]

I think you are confusing two totally separate things. Nobody is mad at the seller for not wanting to wait for payment. They are upset that he lied and broke his word.

Had the seller said he wouldn't hold the item for the buyer, nobody would be complaining. He has that right. Everybody would understand that. But what he doesn't have the right to do is to agree to hold the item, and then sell it out from under the guy. If you don't want to hold an item because of flaky buyers then by all means don't agree to hold the item. No problem from anybody on that. But when you do agree to hold the item, then you need to hold the item. Breaking your word or lying on even doing a deal is just as deserving of negative feedback as breaking your word or lying about some detail in a deal (like the oh yeah the cue is straight when it is as crooked at the letter "S"). Lying is lying, and breaking your word is breaking your word, and it doesn't matter where in the deal it happened, it is still crappy behavior deserving of being noted.

Goodness, you are really into this.

I agree that the seller should have said something more like, 'touch base with me when you can buy', but hindsight is always 20/20.

And the buyer is out nothing, maybe even saved himself some disappointment.

 

[Rain-Man]

There is nothing to confirm the deal. There needs to be a deposit to hold it for him. Suppose next week the guy just says he changed his mind or bought another one locally. What recourse does the seller have? None he is just a dupe. Without a deposit the buyer has no real expectation of a completed deal till he pays.

I understand what you are saying but it is a one sided deal the way it was done. As soon as you hear I want it but can't pay till next week there is already a red flag that this deal may never happen.

I recently bought a band saw at a garage sale. It is like 8 am and I am just going out to fill the truck up with gas and get a soda when I see the garage sale. I don't have a cent on me. I tell the guy I want the saw and will go home and get the money. He says no problem but I take a tool box out of the back of the truck and leave it with him as a deposit.

He would be an idiot if after I left someone come up and offers him the $100 and he says "I am sorry it is sold to some guy who I have never seen before says he is going home to get the money".

I would not even put him in that situation, that is why I gave him a tool box for a deposit. The days of business by handshake are over.

I admit it sounds like the seller didn't deal very fairly but again, without a deposit don't be shocked if when you go back the item is sold.

Agreed.... ^^^^

 

[Poolplaya9]

I don't understand why you are pushing your opinion so vigorously. There is no absolute right or wrong in the case.

That statement is true only if you see lying or breaking your word as being ok.

And if that is how you or anyone else feels, that is your right. But as I've explained many times, the beauty is that if we have negative feedback for breaking your word and backing out of deals, then we all have the information we need to decide who we want to deal with based on our own ethics.

Nobody is telling you what ethics you are or are not allowed to take into consideration when considering who you deal with. Don't try to keep information from a large group of us that allows us to determine who to deal with based on our ethics as just like you get to do. It doesn't affect you in any way if we have that information so the only real reason to try to prevent us from having it is to force us to go by your ethics. See the problem with that?

 

[Rain-Man]

I do not believe any Itrader should be left in situations like this. Itrader feedback, as I see it, should be left for deals that were completed, period.... I don't think a negative should be left in this instance, just as I don't think a negative Itrader should be left for a potential buyer that says they will make payment next week and never follows through.. A deal wasn't completed in either instance..

Rain-Man

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Were you by chance looking for the Blue Book of Pool Cues, 3rd Edition?

 

[macguy]

That statement is true only if you see lying or breaking your word as being ok.

And if that is how you or anyone else feels, that is your right. But as I've explained many times, the beauty is that if we have negative feedback for breaking your word and backing out of deals, then we all have the information we need to decide who we want to deal with based on our own ethics.

Nobody is telling you what ethics you are or are not allowed to take into consideration when considering who you deal with. Don't try to keep information from a large group of us that allows us to determine who to deal with based on our ethics as just like you get to do. It doesn't affect you in any way if we have that information so the only real reason to try to prevent us from having it is to force us to go by your ethics. See the problem with that?

I just reread the original post and I over looked something. The seller canceled the deal only 2 days later on a Friday a full week before the Thursday when the buyer said he would have the money. I think the seller has all the right to cancel the deal with that much notice.

He was even honest about why he was canceling the deal. He didn't make up some dumb lie like " Oh, I just realized I had told my brother he could have it". He didn't leave the buyer hanging or when the buyer went to pay told him, "To bad it is sold". He told him almost right after the conversation about not being paid till next week.

I think this makes a big difference. The seller has every right to cancel with that much notice. No money has changed hands and from experience there is "NO" reason to believe any ever will. The deal was just made and you want to hold a gun to his head. The seller could have handled this in a number of ways and he chose the most honest and up front way. That is worth something regardless what someone thinks about the right or wrong of it.

 

[Poolplaya9]

I do not believe any Itrader should be left in situations like this. Itrader feedback, as I see it, should be left for deals that were completed, period.... I don't think a negative should be left in this instance, just as I don't think a negative Itrader should be left for a potential buyer that says they will make payment next week and never follows through.. A deal wasn't completed in either instance..

Rain-Man

And that is your right to have your own ethics. But if there is negative for backing out of deals you will still be able to use your own ethics the way you want to to decide who you want to deal with. It doesn't change anything for you or affect you at all. And under those circumstance I would be able to use my own ethics to make my own decisions also. But right now I can't because I don't have the information to be able to.

Do you want to keep me from being able to use my own ethics for my own decisions? Are you trying to force me to use your ethics? If not, then why not have negative for backing out of deals so that everybody could then use their own ethics to make their own decisions and not just you?

 

[ArtT]

You made a statement that you wanted XXXXX.

He got a hold of you and said that he had XXXXX.

Then you asked him if he can wait. To me, that changes everything. As in, Do you want it or not? You walk into a store and see an item on sale that you really want.
You take it to Customer Service and they tell you that considering it is on sale and there is only one left, they will not let you put away until you come back.

You come back a week later and the item was sold. Is it the sores fault?

He told you to let him know when you deposited the money in his Pay Pal.

He at least had the courtesy to let you know what happened instead of letting you hang or chase him at a later date and not answer your PMs.

Your money situation, or problem isn't his. If he makes a bit of money selling XXXXX's
and other items, he needs money just like anyone else does.

The item is gone, you won't get that particular one. Look for another and have the money ready this time.

Actually, I know you didn't have any way to know it when you posted this, but you are wrong about this statement. I did not actually say in a post that I wanted the item. Others were talking about it, I commented on it. I never said that I wanted it, until the buyer, who was not the person who made the original post, PM'ed me and asked if I wanted to buy it. For what that's worth.
As far as those who agree with the buyer because of people who ask a seller to wait, and then reneg or ask them to wait again, I do understand that. All I can say is, in my case , it would not have. I wouldn't offer to buy something if I didn't have the cash at the time, but since the buyer asked, I made the condition. IMHO if I or someone asked them to wait again, then it would be time for the seller to say something like, "I already waited for you and met my commitment, so now it's first come first serve." That would be more than fair, and even a possible cause for leaving the buyer a negative feedback (in my opinion), depending on what the excuse was and if they believed the excuse.

 

[Rain-Man]

And that is your right to have your own ethics. But if there is negative for backing out of deals you will still be able to use your own ethics the way you want to to decide who you want to deal with. It doesn't change anything for you or affect you at all. And under those circumstance I would be able to use my own ethics to make my own decisions also. But right now I can't because I don't have the information to be able to.

Do you want to keep me from being able to use my own ethics for my own decisions? Are you trying to force me to use your ethics? If not, then why not have negative for backing out of deals so that everybody could then use their own ethics to make their own decisions and not just you?

To answer your questions; not at all :thumbup:... But, and again I could be wrong here (maybe someone, like a mod could weigh in here), I have always been under the impression that the Itrader function was for 'completed deals', which goods and/or services were exchanged either for monetary compensation or other goods and/or services (including any returns/refunds, after the item(s) were exchanged)..
I think letting the possibility of leaving a negative Itrader for a verbal commitment, either way, is an EXTREMELY slippery slope.. You would have negative itraders ALL over the place. Just from a sellers perspective, I could not begin to tell you how many people have backed out of a deal after a verbal agreement was reached. Stuff happens. People change their minds, find a better deal, whatever, no big deal and life goes on. I wouldn't even consider leaving a negative Itrader for it...

Good example : Just yesterday/today, I had a member ask for a price on a Predator shaft I have for sale. I told them the price, and payment was made. When I woke up today, I saw that the buyer sent me a message asking if he could back out of the deal and have a refund (he was buying it for someone else and they backed out on him). I didn't even think twice about it. I promptly refunded his payment, and wished him well.. No harm, no foul, no big deal.. :thumbup:

 

[Poolplaya9]

I think the seller has all the right to cancel the deal with that much notice.
When during that time he backed out makes no difference IMO. He either backed out, or didn't. When is immaterial.

He was even honest about why he was canceling the deal.
Again, being honest about why you are breaking your word doesn't justify it any more than if you lied. It is that he did it, not how truthful he was about why.

We disagree about whether backing out of deals is ok or not. That's fine. As I stated many times before, I have no problem with you having your own ethics and using your own ethics in choosing who you deal with and how. But a large group of people see if differently than you do. If we had negative for backing out of deals you would still be able to use your own ethics in deciding who you wanted to deal with just like you do now. And I would be able to also. But as it stands right now a large group of us don't have that information so that we can use our own ethics for our own business decisions.

And that is assuming the "rules" say you can't leave negative for a buyer or seller backing out of a deal which is the impression I am under (but admittedly don't know that for fact). If it turns out that it is perfectly ok to leave negative for backing out of deals according to the official rules at this moment, then I have nothing more to say because that is all I'm asking for. Whether you choose to leave them or not is your business, but I want to be able to see the ones that are being left because keeping your word is exceptionally important to me and is a good indicator that person would be more likely to be shady in other ways as well (IMO) and I want to avoid the even bigger problem they could turn into if money and merchandise were actually exchanged. Not to mention that I just don't want to have my time wasted or miss other opportunities as a result of dealing with those type people even if they were perfectly safe in every other way.

 

[spartan]

You made a statement that you wanted XXXXX.

He got a hold of you and said that he had XXXXX.

Then you asked him if he can wait. To me, that changes everything. As in, Do you want it or not? You walk into a store and see an item on sale that you really want.
You take it to Customer Service and they tell you that considering it is on sale and there is only one left, they will not let you put away until you come back.

You come back a week later and the item was sold. Is it the sores fault?

He told you to let him know when you deposited the money in his Pay Pal.

He at least had the courtesy to let you know what happened instead of letting you hang or chase him at a later date and not answer your PMs.

Your money situation, or problem isn't his. If he makes a bit of money selling XXXXX's
and other items, he needs money just like anyone else does.

The item is gone, you won't get that particular one. Look for another and have the money ready this time.

Correct.
I am not a lawyer but in Business Law 101, any legally binding contract requires 3 elements -offer, acceptance and consideration
There is offer and acceptance but missing is the consideration I.e. payment . The seller did say when he receives Paypal payment he will ship meaning the deal will proceed when he receives consideration (I.e. Paypal payment)

 

[Black-Balled]

Actually, I know you didn't have any way to know it when you posted this, but you are wrong about this statement. I did not actually say in a post that I wanted the item. Others were talking about it, I commented on it. I never said that I wanted it, until the buyer, who was not the person who made the original post, PM'ed me and asked if I wanted to buy it. For what that's worth.
As far as those who agree with the buyer because of people who ask a seller to wait, and then reneg or ask them to wait again, I do understand that. All I can say is, in my case , it would not have. I wouldn't offer to buy something if I didn't have the cash at the time, but since the buyer asked, I made the condition. IMHO if I or someone asked them to wait again, then it would be time for the seller to say something like, "I already waited for you and met my commitment, so now it's first come first serve." That would be more than fair, and even a possible cause for leaving the buyer a negative feedback (in my opinion), depending on what the excuse was and if they believed the excuse.

There is no point trying to defend what you did or trying to confirm you would have bought the item as you said you would.

You did nothing wrong and there will not be an opportunity to prove your intent would become reality.

I don't agree with you coming on here and being publicly sad about it though. Shit happens. If it could have been yours for $50, it ain't that special.

What you suggest by starting this thread is that you may well be one who is quick to complain/ find fault, could be a red flag to sellers.

You had nothing to gain by making your situation public, unless you perceive some benefit to yourself in attempting to smear another's name.

There was a thread recently by one of the most well-regarded, knowledgeable, smartiest rotflmao posters, nick serdula recently, nick had a buyer who said I'll take it', but never did get $ to nick. Nick *****ed and whined and left red rep, the guy responded and alleged he sent $ to incorrect address, but still wanted item. Nick showed his inner baby and said that buyer was no longer eligible to purchase from him.

Sometimes the things we say about others say more about us, instead.

Shoulda not got stuck on this speed bump, imo

 

[TATE]

Correct.
I am not a lawyer but in Business Law 101, any legally binding contract requires 3 elements -offer, acceptance and consideration
There is offer and acceptance but missing is the consideration I.e. payment . The seller did say when he receives Paypal payment he will ship meaning the deal will proceed when he receives consideration (I.e. Paypal payment)

The promise of consideration, an agreed upon price, is consideration as far as the law goes. Legally, they had a binding contract. It's not worth enforcing it from either side, but from a strictly legal standpoint they were mutually bound to perform and a lack of performance made the other party liable for damages.

In this case, there are, of course, no real damages. What are hurt feelings worth?*


* About a billion if you're Donald Sterling.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Thanks for your explanation Spartan. Makes perfect sense this way. Altho with the OPs
further clarification in his last post.

Actually, I know you didn't have any way to know it when you posted this, but you are wrong about this statement. I did not actually say in a post that I wanted the item. Others were talking about it, I commented on it. I never said that I wanted it, until the buyer, who was not the person who made the original post, PM'ed me and asked if I wanted to buy it. For what that's worth.

For what its worth, even with Spartan's legal explanation, it does make my statement wrong.

If someone solicited yourself for the item as you described, then the courteous way to have handled it would have been to wait for a week to see if you had paid for it.

Was it the Blue Book of Pool Cues?

If it was, I read the Thread and altho you didn't directly ask anyone if they had a new or used one for sale, it did sound like you were looking for one. Either now or in the future.

Doesn't matter anyway as I stand corrected. Someone else asked you if you wanted the item and you said yes but here are my terms, is this ok.

Makes a tiny bit of difference, at least to myself as to who is in the wrong.

 

[ArtT]

There is no point trying to defend what you did or trying to confirm you would have bought the item as you said you would.

You did nothing wrong and there will not be an opportunity to prove your intent would become reality.

I don't agree with you coming on here and being publicly sad about it though. Shit happens. If it could have been yours for $50, it ain't that special.

What you suggest by starting this thread is that you may well be one who is quick to complain/ find fault, could be a red flag to sellers.

You had nothing to gain by making your situation public, unless you perceive some benefit to yourself in attempting to smear another's name.

There was a thread recently by one of the most well-regarded, knowledgeable, smartiest rotflmao posters, nick serdula recently, nick had a buyer who said I'll take it', but never did get $ to nick. Nick *****ed and whined and left red rep, the guy responded and alleged he sent $ to incorrect address, but still wanted item. Nick showed his inner baby and said that buyer was no longer eligible to purchase from him.

Sometimes the things we say about others say more about us, instead.

Shoulda not got stuck on this speed bump, imo

I did not come on here to be sad. I started the thread by asking if what happened seem wrong to other people on here. It seemed wrong to me, but, as I said I'm new to the site and was trying to find out if this happened a lot.

I was also trying to find out if I was supposed to leave feedback regarding what happened. Admittedly I didn't express it well in the first post. I later reposted in this thread asking that more clearly.

Finally, I went out of my way NOT to smear anyone's name. I left out every detail that I could to prevent anyone from finding out who this happened with.

 

[Rain-Man]

I did not come on here to be sad. I started the thread by asking if what happened seem wrong to other people on here. It seemed wrong to me, but, as I said I'm new to the site and was trying to find out if this happened a lot.

I was also trying to find out if I was supposed to leave feedback regarding what happened. Admittedly I didn't express it well in the first post. I later reposted in this thread asking that more clearly.

Finally, I went out of my way NOT to smear anyone's name. I left out every detail that I could to prevent anyone from finding out who this happened with.

Personally, I dont think you did ANYTHING wrong, I just do not think a neg Itrader should be left if the deal wasnt completed (again, either way).. I do feel the seller should have said he would hold it, barring another buyer coming along, and properly explained that... Im admittedly biased by coming from a sellers perspective (for the most part), having heard a potential buyer say they would buy as soon as (fill in the blank), and most times never hear back from them. Im so used to it that it doest even faze me, and like I said, wouldnt even think to leave a neg itrader for it..

I agree with you that you did go out of your way to not mention a name, and seem to simply be asking others opinions on the situation (which you got)..

Move on, and dont sweat it, its not worth even worrying about..

P.S.- PM me what it was and if your still interested in the item, I may even have what you were looking to buy.....

Rain-Man

 

[Poolplaya9]

I just do not think a neg Itrader should be left if the deal wasnt completed (again, either way)

I do feel the seller should have said he would hold it, barring another buyer coming along, and properly explained that.

There is no such thing as "holding it barring another buyer coming along". If it is "barring another buyer coming along" then it isn't being held at all, now is it?

As far as for when to leave negative, it makes far more sense to leave feedback for any deal for which there was a contract. If there is a contract, there is a deal, whether the one party actually gets the item he contracted for at all or in the condition he contracted for, or whether the other party gets the payment or item he contracted for in exchange. A legal contract requires an offer from one party, and and acceptance from another party, with consideration, which is the promise to exchange something of value, or the exchange of something of value.

SELLER: "Hi, I saw where you wished you had -------------.. I have a new one I will sell for $50 paid via PayPal and you pay the USPS shipping . Let me know."
This was the first offer.

BUYER: "Sounds good to me. My only question is can you wait until around this time next week? I just paid a bunch of bills and get paid again next thursday, so I can put some of that money in my account that is linked to Paypal (I usually only keep like $10 in my paypal account). Let me know if that is ok. Thanks."
This was the counteroffer, which modifies the first offer and now becomes the offer.

SELLER: "Yes, next week is fine...let me know when you put the $50 in PayPal and I'll ship it out then. (left out paypal details)
I'll need your mailing address for shipment.
My Paypal account is my e-mail address:"
This is the acceptance of the offer. Since there is an offer, and an acceptance, and consideration (the seller promised to send an item which has value, and the buyer promised to send money which has value), there is a legally binding contract (deal) now in effect.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/contracts-101-make-legally-valid-30247.html

Feedback left for a legally binding deal with a legally binding contract is a more than reasonable use of feedback if ones looks at it without bias.