Challenge of Champions dump

[JoeyInCali]

I have talked to players that played and others that had something to do with that tournament...it was a dump. JT

LOL
We can ask the ref, JAY.

I believe it was not a dump and Ali really KO'd Liston with that phantom punch.
Liston rolled over and got up after the timekeeper hit the 10 count.
The ref ( Joe Walcott ) was so confused he didn't count.

 

[itsfroze]

I have talked to players that played and others that had something to do with that tournament...it was a dump. JT

Thanks Johnny,
I don't respect either, but would have more respect for the actual dump then, than the pathetic attempt to cover it up or white wash it now.

 

[Straightpool_99]

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[Nullus]

I would never accuse someone like Buddy Hall of dumping. Whether he did or didn't, it's not my place. However, as a spectator, and I was in Vegas that year, it was one of the worst played matches, pressure or not, that I've ever seen two professional players play. Most of us amateurs do it on a much more regular basis, we've all been there. You just don't see pros do it very often, let alone as badly as that one was. The shots missed were shots most above average amateurs would make nine out of ten times or better so it's easy to see why folks jumped right to the controversy, or dumping if you will, theories.

 

[Straightpool_99]

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[naji]

CJ I got all the respect for you in the world, but this 8 ball was a clear dump shot on buddys part........Also the odds that Lebron would win was 20:1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y12sL1oR2s watch at 40 seconds and the shot at 6:36 Buddy can make that with his eyes closed.........they all got rich that weekend.....

Buddy at the time was not as good as he is now, it is obvious he put inside on CB for the combo shot with OBs near each other, 1st OB slide into 2nd OB with outside spin and threw the 9 way out; opposite to his miss on the 8, where he used inside, and with his shaft elevated it swerved the CB more than squirt and threw 8 back to left. Natural misses i do not see dumping here. But if you say Ronnie O last match i have some doubts about it.

 

[Straightpool_99]

...........

 

[JoeyA]

I don't know anything about a dump or no dump, but what I do know is the first shot in the video is exactly the way I would have played the shot and if I came close to scratching like Buddy did, my nerves would have been shot knowing how much money was at stake. When something like that happens your body tightens up and missed shots like the 8 ball become something that isn't as abnormal as you would think.
JoeyA

Oh, come on now! This thing has been settled long ago. It was a dump. Can you honestly watch the video and claim that Buddy wasn't trying to scratch and get behind balls? I made a clippeo of this explaining the different shots but it got lost somehow.

Look at the first shot of this clip! It was obvious to anyone that Buddy tried to scratch! This is Buddy freakin' Hall, the master of position play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y12sL1oR2s

The missed 8 was bad, but not quite as incriminating as all the position "mistakes". You could understand someone getting the "shakes" in a high pressure situation and maybe missing a ball or two, but a seasoned veteran like Hall making lame errors in decision over and over? After he nearly scratches in the side once, he then goes on to scratch in the side in the exact same way as he almost did?
Then he finally scratches at 3.40, on purpose IMHO. 5.08 he tries to scratch again! Think about it, at that speed, where was the cueball going if he didn't hit the point!? At 5.30 he tries to get behind the balls. Again, think about it. There was no need for him ever to go in that direction! He could have gone on the outside of those balls and never been in danger of going behind them. After that he had no other chance than to miss the combination. I realize that to some this is not quite as obvious as it seems to others, but remember who the person playing is. Buddy Hall is arguably the best position player of all time. He knew the dangers of these shots more than probably anyone on this forum (including me, of course).

 

[Johnnyt]

Buddy at the time was not as good as he is now, it is obvious he put inside on CB for the combo shot with OBs near each other, 1st OB slide into 2nd OB with outside spin and threw the 9 way out; opposite to his miss on the 8, where he used inside, and with his shaft elevated it swerved the CB more than squirt and threw 8 back to left. Natural misses i do not see dumping here. But if you say Ronnie O last match i have some doubts about it.

Trying to take the heat off the good Old Boys and throwing Ronnie in the fire. Nice try...NOT. JT

 

[naji]

What about the scratches, and almost-scratches?

It is possible he wanted to get the score TV friendly to have some excitement but he over did it a bit and lost.

 

[Celophanewrap]

*Now Buddy, this is for me only. I just want to know and I will never speak a word of it to ANYONE if you tell me you dumped and if I do you can call me a liar.
I left it at that. Maybe he didn't trust me to tell me ....

Maybe he was right
Haven't the players involved actually talked about being a dump? I think I might have read that somewhere.

 

[grover]

Every champion on earth has missed easier shots than Buddy missed. I played in the 'Challenge of Champions' after this tournament and they were still booking the matches in Las Vegas.....I could have bet on myself and got 7/2 on the money, but I chose not to.

IF Buddy would have "not been playing on the square" that match he DEFINITELY would not have broke the balls PERFECT in the last game. (he would have tried to scratch, or at least miss hit them)......the players may have did a "saver," but there was no conspiracy to dump the tournament to Mike Lebron, that's just a blown out of proportion "Wive's Tail" in the pool world......Buddy was certainly trying to win, but the pressure of $50,000 is more than many can imagine......I've been there under that kind of pressure and sometime you just have to "shoot on the right shake". :dance:

come on man !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Straightpool_99]

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[wrickyb]

Pool Wars

I thought Jay covered it in his book. But I can't find my copy to confirm it. Someone look it up.

 

[PoloBob]

My point was to respect all shots, and things will work better for you.

Couldn't be said better.

If you think something is "easy", human nature allows you to take it for granted. If you think something is "difficult", you're giving yourself permission to make a mistake and be acceptable of the results solely bc it was tough.

 

[PINKLADY]

Buddy at the time was not as good as he is now....

at Mosconi, Buddy was >400lbs and rode a red Hoveround everywhere he went. i can't imagine him playing now, much less standing for a period of time. has he lost weight?

 

[JoeyA]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I can't find the old thread were lots of people who actually talked to the people involved clearly stated that this was a dump, but after reading all of those stories and watching the video, my mind is certainly made up. Strickland also allegedly knew they were going to fix the tournament. It's sad too, because several of the people who were involved were people who's game I respected (and still respect) and tried to model my game after. Even though I still respect the great skills they have, I cringe when I watch them play now. Strickland and Hopkins are the only ones left of the old idiols for me. Game fixing is where I draw the line. That is the absolute worst, bottom of the barrel behavior for any athlete. Higgins and Lee in snooker are also players I no longer watch.

I hear ya. Game fixing is a pox on pool but I can tell you from personal experience that some people perceive things that are not as they truly are. Some people can't wait to spread some dirty gossip and others can't wait to tell the tale to the next person and so the story grows. Just sayin....

Anyway, I have seen myself play great one match and then play terrible the next match. It happens to most people who compete at one time or another. If you would have seen Shannon Daulton when I beat him playing one pocket, you might have thought something was up. (There wasn't) Sometimes even professional players look like amateurs.

JoeyA

 

[Black-Balled]

You can have your opinion, but is that the dump wows on.
You know buddy has won more than that, and playing on the square too, so the possibility of him actually losing $ would have been there, unlike the match with lebron.

Every champion on earth has missed easier shots than Buddy missed. I played in the 'Challenge of Champions' after this tournament and they were still booking the matches in Las Vegas.....I could have bet on myself and got 7/2 on the money, but I chose not to.

IF Buddy would have "not been playing on the square" that match he DEFINITELY would not have broke the balls PERFECT in the last game. (he would have tried to scratch, or at least miss hit them)......the players may have did a "saver," but there was no conspiracy to dump the tournament to Mike Lebron, that's just a blown out of proportion "Wive's Tail" in the pool world......Buddy was certainly trying to win, but the pressure of $50,000 is more than many can imagine......I've been there under that kind of pressure and sometime you just have to "shoot on the right shake". :dance:

 

[Black-Balled]

Buddy at the time was not as good as he is now, it is obvious he put inside on CB for the combo shot with OBs near each other, 1st OB slide into 2nd OB with outside spin and threw the 9 way out; opposite to his miss on the 8, where he used inside, and with his shaft elevated it swerved the CB more than squirt and threw 8 back to left. Natural misses i do not see dumping here. But if you say Ronnie O last match i have some doubts about it.

What in heavens name are you talking about?

Buddy was worlds better in the 80s and 90s than 2000-forward.

And now? A shadow of the player he once was.

 

[victorl]

My goodnes, the amount of face-palm worthy posts in this thread is reaching astronomical proportions.