So is there footage of the famous 1990's Challenge of Champions dumping scandal?

[JoeyInCali]

Nothing personal but I still believe Jay's account of the event.
Lebron dogging it the least from that group is a hard sale.
Earl missing from the group is a hard sale.
Buddy and Howard jumping is a hard sale .

 

[itsfroze]

I still believe Jay.

Why did they stop taking bets on Pool, and don't say it's because they want them to play the table games in the casino. If that
was any where near true, they wouldn't take sports bets then. At least come up with some plausible, BS this time.

 

[itsfroze]

Just in case anyone missed it, this is what Jay posted in the other DUMP thread,
to C.J. and everyone.

Originally Posted By, Jay:


"CJ, this was a long time ago in another galaxy far away, but IT REALLY HAPPENED and to deny it happened is a huge error in judgement imo. I don't think it has any bearing on professional pool today so I won't belabor the issue any longer after this. There certainly was a lot of pressure on Buddy as it turns out. Six other guys were counting on him to lose this match, since they were all holding $200 tickets at 20-1 on Mike! Yes, Buddy had a ticket too. None of these tickets were bought by the players themselves, they had someone (friend or spouse) make the purchase for them.

Only one player (Earl) refused to be part of this deal. The other seven guys split the 50K equally (plus cashed $4,200 tickets at the sports book). Not a bad payday in 1991, over 11K each.

I'm not guessing here and this is not what I think happened. It's a fact Jack! After this I'll let it go at that and we can move on to other topics.

I'm certain CJ that if you had been invited that year you also would have refused to participate because that's the kind of man you are.
One last thing, I agree with you, KARMA is a b-tch! So be careful what you espouse and support."

 

[FreeShot]

Yes, there's a huge difference when it comes to "savers," even Jack Nicklaus and Lee Trevino got in trouble one year at the "SKINS GAME" for making a "saver" - of course that was quickly "swept under the carpet".

I can't pretend to know what was going through Buddy's head during that match. What I do know is if I was in the finals against an opponent that was 20/1 and EVERYONE was pulling against me to win.......it would IMPOSSIBLE to play "normal".

This would not mean Buddy intentionally played poorly, it would mean that he played poorly for other reasons than is assumed.

I was taught many years ago that when I "assume" to know for sure....well, you know the rest......

Being judge, and jury of Buddy Hall is easy when you've never been in his position.....and if you've been under that kind of pressure it's a different story. I've seen other finals where both players just "fell dead" and played awful.....sometimes it appears to be contagious, but that in now way means it's intentional...only human.

Again, no one can truly know what was going on inside Buddy's head, one thing's for sure - this didn't "ruin pool" in any way, shape or form. This very year I started playing Pro Tournaments and I'll assure everyone that the next 7 years were the biggest in the history of Pro Pool.....we did THOUSANDS of international hours on ESPN and millions of dollars were played for on the Pro Tours. And Earl even won a million dollar annuity for ONE MATCH (which also had controversy, so it's not uncommon in Pool), which we also have on video and documentary.

If you had followed the line of conversation closely, then you would see that I in no way made any accusations about Buddy or the Challenge of Champions. Nor did I make any comment or assumption about Buddy's play, so I'm not sure why any of that was directed toward me.

 

[CJ Wiley]

this is a public forum and nothing is to be taken personally

If you had followed the line of conversation closely, then you would see that I in no way made any accusations about Buddy or the Challenge of Champions. Nor did I make any comment or assumption about Buddy's play, so I'm not sure why any of that was directed toward me.

It wasn't directed at you, I don't even know who you are. You are in the conversation, but this is a public forum and nothing is to be taken personally.....besides, you have a fake name, not one could possibly know who you are....except "Mr. Wilson" (maybe).

The only reason this topic is such a big thing is so many people enjoy feeling morally superior at Buddy's expense......Buddy's wife passed away a few days ago and now they want to jump on the "slander buddy over something 23 years ago wagon" ...brutal!!!

 

[CJ Wiley]

when you think something is going to be a certain way it usually appears that way.

It's ok CJ, everyone else here knows FOR SURE what it's like to play at your level. We know that we would NEVER miss or dog it for that type of money. We never have missed "easy" shots or easy shape in our lives.

Don't bother trying to explain things from your perspective as a top player. We already know what your caliber of player thinks and feels and experiences at the table.

Yes, It's ironic that everyone will be quick to say "I have no idea what it's like to be a champion player and experience that kind of pressure" - then turn around and say that playing under the pressure of that particular 'Challenge of Champions' is easy to predict when in fact it is the most difficult tournament in history to predict.

Buddy knew all eyes would be on him and many would be already trying to pass judgment. The thing about life is when you think something is going to be a certain way it usually appears that way.......no matter what the circumstances.

 

[FreeShot]

It wasn't directed at you, I don't even know who you are. You are in the conversation, but this is a public forum and nothing is to be taken personally.....besides, you have a fake name, not one could possibly know who you are....except "Mr. Wilson" (maybe).

The only reason this topic is such a big thing is so many people enjoy feeling morally superior at Buddy's expense......Buddy's wife passed away a few days ago and now they want to jump on the "slander buddy over something 23 years ago wagon" ...brutal!!!

That's cool. I didn't take it personally. I merely thought that my tangentially related comment regarding savers was a strange jumping off point for your post about making assumptions, acting as judge and jury, or understanding the pressure Buddy was under.

 

[alstl]

If it was a dump it was poorly done. The 8 ball he dogged he played perfect shape on, he could have dogged shape instead. The following shot he left the opponent jacked up over a ball.

It looks bad but it isn't the obvious dump I assumed when I heard the story originally.

 

[HelloBaby-]

Here the videos

http://youtu.be/_y12sL1oR2s

http://youtu.be/OkMpqzvk-OY

What a SHAME for those "champions", I don't know how they can live like that, without dignity and respect. What's the difference between them and some cheap thieves ? I think they are worse than some cheap thieves because they have a choice and they choose to be some pieces of sh**t.
I'm sorry but it drives me nuts, dumping for 1 million it's understandable, it's not right but it's understandable, but for few thousands bucks ???
I think it's a part of pool in the U.S, all those hustling, dumping, air-barrel, cheating, sharking, etc. And people seems too easy-going for that.
I have no respect for all those "champions" as well as Warren Kiamco, Dennis Orcullo, Scott Frost... you cheat once you are cheater for life. But hey, who am I to question the way they live and play pool ?
.

 

[Spimp13]

I have no respect for all those "champions" as well as Warren Kiamco, Dennis Orcullo, Scott Frost... you cheat once you are cheater for life. But hey, who am I to question the way they live and play pool ?
.

Here is an example of Scott Frost using pool for something positive.

 

[HelloBaby-]

Here is an example of Scott Frost using pool for something positive.

I'm sure he does many good things, I like him as a commentator. But hey, you know a real man when he faces with decisions, when he has to make a choice, sometimes between his reputation ( or dignity ) and money. Of course it's also situational, but some guys seem to choose money even it's not like matter of dead-or-alive.
Finally, who am I to judge a person ?

Just my 2cts.

 

[TCo]

Yes, It's ironic that everyone will be quick to say "I have no idea what it's like to be a champion player and experience that kind of pressure" - then turn around and say that playing under the pressure of that particular 'Challenge of Champions' is easy to predict when in fact it is the most difficult tournament in history to predict.

Buddy knew all eyes would be on him and many would be already trying to pass judgment. The thing about life is when you think something is going to be a certain way it usually appears that way.......no matter what the circumstances.

I come at this from a perspective that the match was played horrible and add what you have said about being deceptive in your pool game.

We may not know what it's like to be a champion, but we know pool players and have heard a champion (you) say he has disguised his game for personal gain. I'm just doing the math. Tell me why Buddy is any different that you were in hustling someone of lesser skills out of their money.

In this circumstance, I will agree with you, the game has been the teacher, and we learned those particular games were a wheelbarrow full of dung.

 

[CreeDo]

I am not rationalizing anything. In jurisprudence there is a concept of shared responsibility.

Clearly, IF the players colluded then it's wrong. No question.

But ALSO the casino is PARTIALLY wrong for setting up such a situation. I know that this is hard for you to understand but leaving your ipad on the seat of your jeep with no doors in the mall parking lot is an INVITATION for it to be stolen no matter how you look at it.

Sorry, this is completely wrong.
Honestly, I'm a little surprised to hear this rationalization from you.
It's straight up blame-the-victim.

I cannot find a legal concept or term for "shared responsibility" other than
someone using those words in a sentence, like "the plaintiff shares responsibility
with the defendant for maintaining the fence between their yards."

I know of no legal concept that says "if you leave your valuables where they can get easily stolen,
you're partly at fault and therefore, the judgment against the thief changes."

Judges do have leeway in sentencing, but if they go easy on our mall thief,
that's a personal choice, it's not because anything in the law states
"the victim was asking for it, so adjust your punishment accordingly."

No matter how much the casino might be "asking for it" by making a bad line,
they have no blame when a group gets together and decides to commit fraud.

That's like saying "dumping is dead wrong for $2,000, but for $20,000...
well, I can't entirely blame you."

 

[JoeyInCali]

The casino was to blame for trusting the players.
They were not experienced in pooligistics.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Sorry, this is completely wrong.
Honestly, I'm a little surprised to hear this rationalization from you.
It's straight up blame-the-victim.

I cannot find a legal concept or term for "shared responsibility" other than
someone using those words in a sentence, like "the plaintiff shares responsibility
with the defendant for maintaining the fence between their yards."

I know of no legal concept that says "if you leave your valuables where they can get easily stolen,
you're partly at fault and therefore, the judgment against the thief changes."

Judges do have leeway in sentencing, but if they go easy on our mall thief,
that's a personal choice, it's not because anything in the law states
"the victim was asking for it, so adjust your punishment accordingly."

No matter how much the casino might be "asking for it" by making a bad line,
they have no blame when a group gets together and decides to commit fraud.

That's like saying "dumping is dead wrong for $2,000, but for $20,000...
well, I can't entirely blame you."

Actually I don't think the casino was careless at all. They put a cap on the betting, and from what those "in the know" have said their losses seem to have been limited (for a casino). They took a chance (who knows, pool betting could have gotten big) on something that could have given a nice reward with very limited risks. They got off very cheap because of the players greed. Had they been more patient and smart, they could have bled the casino over years and gotten rich.

Let's say for a moment that the players are in fact guilty of fixing the matches, which to me it seems that they are, but which can never be proven of course. In that case their thinking were quite short sighted. They could have all bet on Buddy, which I believe was the favorite or even Sigel or Varner, and no one would ever have noticed. They would have gotten a near risk free return on their money, but not 20:1 of course. How hard could it be to dump against Buddy Hall? One scratch on the break could be enough! Nobody would have been the wiser and there would have been no embarrassing incidents like the missed 8 or combo. I don't think Buddy, Sigel or Varner would have missed the balls LeBron did. If they had been patient and smart they could have played the long game and rigged the matches every year and made easy money without any risk at all. Who knows, maybe the casino would have removed the cap on betting? They could have made huge scores! It's actually almost enough to make me doubt the fix..wait no it isn't.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I highly doubt if ANYONE could have brought their "A" game to that match.

I come at this from a perspective that the match was played horrible and add what you have said about being deceptive in your pool game.

We may not know what it's like to be a champion, but we know pool players and have heard a champion (you) say he has disguised his game for personal gain. I'm just doing the math. Tell me why Buddy is any different that you were in hustling someone of lesser skills out of their money.

In this circumstance, I will agree with you, the game has been the teacher, and we learned those particular games were a wheelbarrow full of dung.

Again, I have no idea what Buddy was thinking during this match, and neither does anyone else. I have merely suggested that pressure does a lot to change how someone performs, and there's no arguing that.

Considering the circumstances I highly doubt if ANYONE could have brought their "A" game to that match......and Buddy obviously didn't.....so there's no surprise that he played poorly.

To say he plays so well and controls his emotions to a point of absolute control is silly.....I've seen Buddy and most every other champion miss easy shots.....and I have no idea if they missed them on purpose or not.

I've missed my share of balls because of all "flavors" of factors...and I've been fortunate enough to make the important ones in life. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[JD_Hogg]

Here the videos

http://youtu.be/_y12sL1oR2s

http://youtu.be/OkMpqzvk-OY

What a SHAME for those "champions", I don't know how they can live like that, without dignity and respect. What's the difference between them and some cheap thieves ? I think they are worse than some cheap thieves because they have a choice and they choose to be some pieces of sh**t.
I'm sorry but it drives me nuts, dumping for 1 million it's understandable, it's not right but it's understandable, but for few thousands bucks ???
I think it's a part of pool in the U.S, all those hustling, dumping, air-barrel, cheating, sharking, etc. And people seems too easy-going for that.
I have no respect for all those "champions" as well as Warren Kiamco, Dennis Orcullo, Scott Frost... you cheat once you are cheater for life. But hey, who am I to question the way they live and play pool ?
.

these same things go on in all sports where there's gambling and not millions to go round. Its not just a pool thing.

also it doesnt look like a clear dump to me as most know it all's here say. if shane has an off day is he dumping? Anyway only Buddy know for sure and if he says no dump, then maybe he's telling the truth.

 

[JB Cases]

Sorry, this is completely wrong.
Honestly, I'm a little surprised to hear this rationalization from you.
It's straight up blame-the-victim.

I cannot find a legal concept or term for "shared responsibility" other than
someone using those words in a sentence, like "the plaintiff shares responsibility
with the defendant for maintaining the fence between their yards."

I know of no legal concept that says "if you leave your valuables where they can get easily stolen,
you're partly at fault and therefore, the judgment against the thief changes."

Judges do have leeway in sentencing, but if they go easy on our mall thief,
that's a personal choice, it's not because anything in the law states
"the victim was asking for it, so adjust your punishment accordingly."

No matter how much the casino might be "asking for it" by making a bad line,
they have no blame when a group gets together and decides to commit fraud.

That's like saying "dumping is dead wrong for $2,000, but for $20,000...
well, I can't entirely blame you."

It is called a mitigating factor.

Fraud is wrong. Getting hustled sucks.

But there is a dumbass factor here. If you leave your wallet out then you ARE partially at fault if it's stolen. Not that this means the thief if caught will get any less punishment. But it does mean the police and judge will look at you and ask if you have brain damage to be leaving your stuff unprotected.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Yes, It's ironic that everyone will be quick to say "I have no idea what it's like to be a champion player and experience that kind of pressure" - then turn around and say that playing under the pressure of that particular 'Challenge of Champions' is easy to predict when in fact it is the most difficult tournament in history to predict.

Buddy knew all eyes would be on him and many would be already trying to pass judgment. The thing about life is when you think something is going to be a certain way it usually appears that way.......no matter what the circumstances.

Again, I have no idea what Buddy was thinking during this match, and neither does anyone else. I have merely suggested that pressure does a lot to change how someone performs, and there's no arguing that.

Considering the circumstances I highly doubt if ANYONE could have brought their "A" game to that match......and Buddy obviously didn't.....so there's no surprise that he played poorly.

To say he plays so well and controls his emotions to a point of absolute control is silly.....I've seen Buddy and most every other champion miss easy shots.....and I have no idea if they missed them on purpose or not.

I've missed my share of balls because of all "flavors" of factors...and I've been fortunate enough to make the important ones in life. 'The Game is the Teacher'

So you do have an idea of what B. Hall was thinking or you do not have an idea???

ONB

 

[seven_7days]

If it was a dump it was poorly done. The 8 ball he dogged he played perfect shape on, he could have dogged shape instead. The following shot he left the opponent jacked up over a ball.

It looks bad but it isn't the obvious dump I assumed when I heard the story originally.

*Lol. Played perfect shape on? He almost scratched in the side like he was trying to do.
But,unfortunately the cue ball went off the titty and he's now forced to dog the 8.