OB Plus Shafts...

[RBC]

OB comes on here and tells us they have a new shaft that is the greatest thing since players discovered they had fingers on the end or their hands.

When asked for proof, any type of definitive testing to quantify their greatness, their salesman replies, "well tell me who else does that?"

I mean really?

So basically your just shooting off at the mouth the same as all others in your industry.

Are you really proud of that? LOL

Agent 99


I'm very proud of my company, our products, and all the things we have done or said about any of them. Proud enough that I post with my name and my company's name for all to see. We don't have anything to hide.

I'm not sure where the things you have perceived are coming from, but they certainly don't look very familiar to me.

So the question really is this. Are you proud of your comments? If so, are you proud enough of them to justify them or put your actual name on them?

If so, let us know and we can dig into this further.

Now, I've got to get back out in the shop helping the guys out to fill some of our back orders.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

 

[Agent 99]

Agent 99


I'm very proud of my company, our products, and all the things we have done or said about any of them. Proud enough that I post with my name and my company's name for all to see. We don't have anything to hide.

I'm not sure where the things you have perceived are coming from, but they certainly don't look very familiar to me.

So the question really is this. Are you proud of your comments? If so, are you proud enough of them to justify them or put your actual name on them?

If so, let us know and we can dig into this further.

Now, I've got to get back out in the shop helping the guys out to fill some of our back orders.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

Have you provided any evidence, of any kind, that would conclude that the Plus shaft is a better, lower LD shaft than your competitors? Or for that matter better than your last edition?

You insinuated it when you said, 'I feel confident that we would compare favorably,' or something to that effect.

I'm glad that you are proud of your company, you should be. I stated above that my comments were not solely directed at OB.

The practice of making unsubstantiated claims of product performance are common practice in your industry, and that is the point I'm making here.

I have not posted anything here that is not true.

In fact the very content of this thread proves my point.

Have a nice day getting out those back orders.

 

[riedmich]

@ Agent 99

I understand you in principle, and you're right - you don't tell anything untrue. But tell me the reason why you especially choose this thread and OB cues to spray out your poison ??? You told that all LD shaft producers do some kind of hype, and this isn't wrong, too! But then you better go one or two steps back, take a deep breath if you don't like this then let it just pass through, and do not take one of many others to tell such a negative and uninformative stuff. Thanks

 

[shanesinnott]

Have you provided any evidence, of any kind, that would conclude that the Plus shaft is a better, lower LD shaft than your competitors?

Agent99,

No, we have not. But, we also have NEVER made any claims that the Plus shaft or any product that we make is better than a competitors product.

I can assure you that if we do choose to make a claim comparing one of our products to a competitors products then we will back it up with evidence to prove those claims.

 

[BRussell]

OB comes on here and tells us they have a new shaft that is the greatest thing since players discovered they had fingers on the end or their hands.

I don't recall seeing any hyperbolic claims. I see "13% less end mass which equates to less cue ball deflection," which is exactly what outside analysis would predict.

Let me ask you this: If OB did a Dr. Dave-type test comparing their cues to Predator and others, would that really be the end of any discussion? Of course not. There is no single definitive test anyway - different tests could emphasize different strengths and weaknesses of the shafts. I'm sure OB does do that kind of testing as they're developing their shafts, but they would just open a whole new can of worms if they published them. First, people would complain that it wasn't the right test, and second, they would just get into a pissing match with Predator et al.

 

[franko]

It

OB comes on here and tells us they have a new shaft that is the greatest thing since players discovered they had fingers on the end or their hands.

When asked for proof, any type of definitive testing to quantify their greatness, their salesman replies, "well tell me who else does that?"

I mean really?

So basically your just shooting off at the mouth the same as all others in your industry.

Are you really proud of that? LOL

It is attitudes like this that have chased a lot of good AZ'ers away. Lighten up..

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Have you provided any evidence, of any kind, that would conclude that the Plus shaft is a better, lower LD shaft than your competitors? Or for that matter better than your last edition?

You insinuated it when you said, 'I feel confident that we would compare favorably,' or something to that effect.

I'm glad that you are proud of your company, you should be. I stated above that my comments were not solely directed at OB.

The practice of making unsubstantiated claims of product performance are common practice in your industry, and that is the point I'm making here.

I have not posted anything here that is not true.

In fact the very content of this thread proves my point.

Have a nice day getting out those back orders.

Agent 99, I actually think you *have* said some things that are not true. While I agree with you that many in the industry make claims that are unsubstantiated, I have specifically gravitated to OB because they *don't* do that. As far as I could tell, Royce and OB have made two claims about their new shafts. First, he said that they have 13% less end mass than the previous models. My guess is that this info was obtained by weighing that portion of the shaft, or something similar. As people who know the basics of LD properties know, endmass is the principle factor in determining the deflection (squirt) characteristics of a shaft. Thus I would say that this claim is pretty well substantiated. Royce did *NOT* say that they would give 13% lower deflection, or that they were better than a Predator Z2, or that you will become a world champion in a year if you buy one. The second claim he made is that the construction technique has changed to using solid pieces of maple instead of laminated maple. The claim was that the shafts provide a better more solid feel. Royce is a good player. He knows about pool cues. I have little reason to doubt that *he* observed these qualities in the new shafts, and then reported it to us. Common sense says that a single solid piece of maple will have different resonance characteristics than laminated wood. I don't think "it feels better" is a claim that really warrants justification anyway. It is an opinion that you agree with or not. You have to try the product out to know. It *makes sense* that it would feel better. I haven't hit with one yet so I can't say. However, my past experience with OB is that they offer better feel than Predator and some other competitors. Clearly I know that what they like for "feel" is not far off from what I like. It would be foolish of me to assume that if Royce says the new ones feel better, that it is only marketing hype.

Perhaps you could quote a "claim" that you feel is unsubstantiated? If you can't, then you are essentially doing exactly what you accuse Royce and others of doing: making a claim with no supporting evidence. However, this would make you one step worse, because in addition to your false advertising, you are also being hypocritical.

I read this entire thread and did not see any claims that were unsubstantiated (by Royce or Shane).

You come across as having a chip on your shoulder for some reason...like you are bringing some baggage to this discussion.

Best of luck,

KMRUNOUT

 

[Agent 99]

@ Agent 99

I understand you in principle, and you're right - you don't tell anything untrue. But tell me the reason why you especially choose this thread and OB cues to spray out your poison ??? You told that all LD shaft producers do some kind of hype, and this isn't wrong, too! But then you better go one or two steps back, take a deep breath if you don't like this then let it just pass through, and do not take one of many others to tell such a negative and uninformative stuff. Thanks

Spraying poison? ... I'm certain that is not objective, why the prejudice?

What I posted here is the truth, thank you for acknowledging that.

There is nothing negative about what I wrote. Rather it is an accurate accounting of the marketing policies of cue and shaft makers.

The only thing uninformative in this thread is the lack of any evidence to support the claims of OB.

I have posted this same message to others on this site before, when they come peddling nothing but hype without offering any real reason to believe what they say is true.

Have a nice day.

 

[shanesinnott]

OB comes on here and tells us they have a new shaft that is the greatest thing since players discovered they had fingers on the end or their hands

We made no such claim.

When asked for proof, any type of definitive testing to quantify their greatness, their salesman replies, "well tell me who else does that?"

Actually, I believe you are referring to smashmouth who said earlier in this thread "OB really needs to post data that supports their deflection claims" and I responded in post 17 of this thread with "We do have data on our shafts and our competitors. We are most likely going to make this data available to the general public in the near future. I am curious if you are aware of any company that posts data that supports their deflection claims? Can you direct me to said results?"

He then responded referencing old test results that were published by Meucci and also old test results published by PlatinumBilliards.com which was a company I used to own. I simply asked if he knew of other companies that published data as I am always interested in reading any studies related to pool cue performance, specifically ones that would be current and would have test results on current products build and sold today.

I mean really?

So basically your just shooting off at the mouth the same as all others in your industry.

Are you really proud of that? LOL

I am sorry that is how I came across to you but I do not believe that anything we have claimed or written in our advertising or on this forum could be interpreted as "shooting off at the mouth". As mentioned before, we do not make claims that we can't back up and yes, we are very proud of our products, our company, our brand, our customer service and in the honest and straightforward way that we conduct our business. You are of course entitled to your opinion.

 

[suharsh]

Hello OB Team - are the cues now going to come default OB+ shafts? Let's say the 2013 line? I hope I can try out these new shafts at the APA NTC this year. Also hope you could have the OB 136 for display / test hit at the APA NTC.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Spraying poison? ... I'm certain that is not objective, why the prejudice?

What I posted here is the truth, thank you for acknowledging that.

There is nothing negative about what I wrote. Rather it is an accurate accounting of the marketing policies of cue and shaft makers.

The only thing uninformative in this thread is the lack of any evidence to support the claims of OB.

I have posted this same message to others on this site before, when they come peddling nothing but hype without offering any real reason to believe what they say is true.

Have a nice day.

Agent 99,

I just reread every single post by Royce and Shane in this thread. You, sir, are dead wrong. They did not make a single unsubstantiated claim. If you think they did, please quote it.

I am being vocal about this because I *like* OB. I think Royce and Shane are great guys. Very pleasant to deal with, very honest. I have never in all their years of business heard them claim something about their product compared to another product. And even talking about their own products, they only claim physical facts about them. They never say it has 51% less deflection (hmm...where did I get *that* number??), or other such things. This is a big part of why I respect them as a company. Stand on your own product, don't tread on the competition. This is exactly what they do. So it is annoying when someone like you comes here and craps on them, essentially making false claims with NO substantiation.

Think it over...(and if you still want to stick to your position, by all means provide a quotation of something they claimed that is false).

KMRUNOUT

 

[shanesinnott]

Hello OB Team - are the cues now going to come default OB+ shafts? Let's say the 2013 line? I hope I can try out these new shafts at the APA NTC this year. Also hope you could have the OB 136 for display / test hit at the APA NTC.

suharsh,

Yes, all playing cues now come with the plus shafts. The new shafts are replacing the original OB shaft which are no longer made.

We will have Plus shaft demos at the BCAPL event in the Rio in 2 weeks and also at the APA NTC at the Riv next month.

We will also have the OB-136 for display/test hit at both events

 

[RBC]

Agent99

Please see my responses below:

Have you provided any evidence, of any kind, that would conclude that the Plus shaft is a better, lower LD shaft than your competitors? Or for that matter better than your last edition?

Your statement makes no sense. "Better" is subjective and is a matter of opinion and therefore cannot be proven. This is exactly the reason why we don't make that statement.

You insinuated it when you said, 'I feel confident that we would compare favorably,' or something to that effect.

I didn't insinuate anything. I made a statement of fact. Are you telling me and all who read this that you know what I am and am not confident in?

I'm glad that you are proud of your company, you should be. I stated above that my comments were not solely directed at OB.

Deny it or not, your comments were very clearly communicated directly against OB Cues.

The practice of making unsubstantiated claims of product performance are common practice in your industry, and that is the point I'm making here.

I completely agree that unsubstantiated claims of product performance are far too common. Not only in our industry, but in many others as well. However, we have gone to great lengths to make sure that we stand above that.

I have not posted anything here that is not true.

Well, aren't these your words?
"OB comes on here and tells us they have a new shaft that is the greatest thing since players discovered they had fingers on the end or their hands."
They certainly aren't ours.

In fact the very content of this thread proves my point.

I think the title of this thread, that doesn't really match the scope of this thread, would lead one to believe that. But the content of this thread certainly doesn't. At least not in my opinion.

Have a nice day getting out those back orders.

Please understand, that while I know that there are many companies out there who make claims about their products that simply cannot be substantiated, we don't do that. We compete against those companies. Even with the huge disadvantage of not doing the same thing, we still continue to grow. We grow because we offer quality products at competitive prices with excellent customer service.

As for the anonymity thing. It's not that I really want to know who you are. It's just that when I make a statement, because I make it under my name, I can be held accountable if it is an incorrect one. Where as those who remain anonymous cannot. Pretty much everyone knows this. So, for your statements and comments to carry any merit, you really should not remain anonymous.

Have a nice day, and shoot straight!


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

 

[suharsh]

suharsh,

Yes, all playing cues now come with the plus shafts. The new shafts are replacing the original OB shaft which are no longer made.

We will have Plus shaft demos at the BCAPL event in the Rio in 2 weeks and also at the APA NTC at the Riv next month.

We will also have the OB-136 for display/test hit at both events

Thanks. I will stop by the booth. My bad luck ... I bought OB Classic just 2 months back! But even the old ones are great so I am sure it won't go unused.

 

[Agent 99]

Agent 99,

I just reread every single post by Royce and Shane in this thread. You, sir, are dead wrong. They did not make a single unsubstantiated claim. If you think they did, please quote it.

I am being vocal about this because I *like* OB. I think Royce and Shane are great guys. Very pleasant to deal with, very honest. I have never in all their years of business heard them claim something about their product compared to another product. And even talking about their own products, they only claim physical facts about them. They never say it has 51% less deflection (hmm...where did I get *that* number??), or other such things. This is a big part of why I respect them as a company. Stand on your own product, don't tread on the competition. This is exactly what they do. So it is annoying when someone like you comes here and craps on them, essentially making false claims with NO substantiation.

Think it over...(and if you still want to stick to your position, by all means provide a quotation of something they claimed that is false).

KMRUNOUT

Here's some hype for you. There is more, I just grabbed these real quick.

Again, I am making a point concerning this industry of smoke and mirrors, OB is just the latest example. I do not care to make this personal. I have nothing against OB. It simply is what it is.

Now if OB wants to do the right thing I would suggest they provide the data they say they have that proves superiority over their competition.

I am outta here ..

shanesinnot

"We do have data on our shafts and our competitors. We are most likely going to make this data available to the general public in the near future. I am curious if you are aware of any company that posts data that supports their deflection claims? Can you direct me to said results? "

Where is this mystery data? Why not make it public if it's ture? Wouldn't now be the time?
Does this not sound like pure hype to you?

shanesinnot

"You are correct. In 2005 when we (Platinum) tested and compared the first gen Predator shafts to the original model OB shafts, Predator came out a hair better (but not much). Since then, Predator has made changes to their shafts and we have made changes to our shafts. Our current OB shafts perform better than the 2005 models and the new plus shafts perform better than the current OB shafts. If the Platinum tests were done again using the latest and greatest products from each manufacturer the order of merit would be different for sure.

Where is the evidence that the order of merit would be different? On what evidence is this conclusion drawn?

RBC

"Well, the newer shafts feel a little more firm, or more like a solid maple shaft. Especially the Classic and the Pro. The new ferrule and carbon fiber pad design on them helps too."

Helps too? What does that mean? Again, no supporting evidence. In fact this statement is unproveable, making it pure hype by nature.

 

[BRussell]

I'd say those statements are the antithesis of hype.

I understand that you're concerned about unproven marketing claims. That's great, because there's a lot of it and it deserves criticism. What's surprising to most of us is that you'd focus on OB, which so clearly does not do that. If marketing hype is your concern, you should be praising OB as a standout example of how honest companies can and should communicate, and comparing them to those who really do engage in dishonest marketing.

 

[iffysam]

suharsh,



Yes, all playing cues now come with the plus shafts. The new shafts are replacing the original OB shaft which are no longer made.



We will have Plus shaft demos at the BCAPL event in the Rio in 2 weeks and also at the APA NTC at the Riv next month.



We will also have the OB-136 for display/test hit at both events

Is there a 14 line in this year?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tbayplayer]

suharsh,

Yes, all playing cues now come with the plus shafts. The new shafts are replacing the original OB shaft which are no longer made.

We will have Plus shaft demos at the BCAPL event in the Rio in 2 weeks and also at the APA NTC at the Riv next month.

We will also have the OB-136 for display/test hit at both events

Shane so if I order an OB from Seyberts today it comes with an OB plus shaft?

 

[RBC]

Here's some hype for you. There is more, I just grabbed these real quick.

Again, I am making a point concerning this industry of smoke and mirrors, OB is just the latest example. I do not care to make this personal. I have nothing against OB. It simply is what it is.

Now if OB wants to do the right thing I would suggest they provide the data they say they have that proves superiority over their competition.

I am outta here ..

shanesinnot

"We do have data on our shafts and our competitors. We are most likely going to make this data available to the general public in the near future. I am curious if you are aware of any company that posts data that supports their deflection claims? Can you direct me to said results? "

Where is this mystery data? Why not make it public if it's ture? Wouldn't now be the time?
Does this not sound like pure hype to you?

shanesinnot

"You are correct. In 2005 when we (Platinum) tested and compared the first gen Predator shafts to the original model OB shafts, Predator came out a hair better (but not much). Since then, Predator has made changes to their shafts and we have made changes to our shafts. Our current OB shafts perform better than the 2005 models and the new plus shafts perform better than the current OB shafts. If the Platinum tests were done again using the latest and greatest products from each manufacturer the order of merit would be different for sure.

Where is the evidence that the order of merit would be different? On what evidence is this conclusion drawn?

RBC

"Well, the newer shafts feel a little more firm, or more like a solid maple shaft. Especially the Classic and the Pro. The new ferrule and carbon fiber pad design on them helps too."

Helps too? What does that mean? Again, no supporting evidence. In fact this statement is unproveable, making it pure hype by nature.

Thanks for making my points for me!

Good luck and shoot straight.


Royce

 

[RBC]

Is there a 14 line in this year?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

iffysam

We don't have any new models right now. We hope to soon, it just depends on when we get caught up. When we do, though, we will transition away from 2013, 2014, etc. All new cues will become part of the line up, and some may drop off as well.


Royce