Pool teaching philosophy

[KRJ]

At what point do you teach them to play pool? the full extent and knowledge of the cue ball and the stroke? Does that come before or after the Jump.

Who said cue ball and stroke was not taught... did you really want me to list every detail of what is taught???

This is such a silly argument. Folks play very tough sports without ever even meeting a "pro", yet, some how get college scholarships in baseball, football, basketball, and make the pro's ? funny how that works. but to teach recreational pool players who play for a hobby, league fun and just want to enjoy the game, we need to SVB to come tell them how to stroke the cueball ?? too funny.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"you can't have the mental, without going through the physical".

I received the same response when I first started training in martial arts. I told the main instuctor that I wanted to train to "improve my mental side".

He just laughed and said "you can't have the mental, without going through the physical". In other words there's no substitute to actual practice and conditioning your mind/body/spirit abilities..... it take all three dimensions to perform at a world class level under the pressure and scrutiny of professional competition.

This is true with reaching the highest levels of anything, it's not possible to "guess" what it's like unless you've actually experienced it yourself. I know from experience that most of what it takes to play the highest levels goes against "common knowledge," as a matter of fact it's even contrary to "popular belief". 'The Game is the Teacher'

Thats pretty much spot on. Great post!
Average level players arguing with a professional pool player about what it takes to play professional pool is laughable at best.
Chuck

 

[KRJ]

Hank won two majors in the same year (Masters and British Open) with Mark O'Meara. I]

So, Mr. Haney never played professional golf, yet became an expert golf instructor. :thumbup: We knew some pro pool players would understand the concept !!

Too bad pool does not have the same attitude as golf.... too bad pool does not have the mass appeal of golf, if it did, nobody would even be talking about who can teach and who can not, they'd all be too busy counting their money to even care

 

[JB Cases]

Popular belief is what the majority of people put stock in. Actual and factual knowledge is the currency of experts.

 

[RiverCity]

Popular belief is what the majority of people put stock in. Actual and factual knowledge is the currency of experts.

And this is what I think is at the heart of the debate. Yes there are instructors who have studied education, and have a toolbox full of ways to teach based on a students best method of learning. But IMO unless the instructor has the experience of an expert (knowledge based from experience not just "popular belief" standard teachings, reciting it verbatim or adding their spin on it) their toolbox will always be half full at best.
Im not saying pro players are better teachers as a whole. Some are some arent, but when it comes to real world knowledge, the pro players have an insight that cannot be matched by someone who has not been there.
If you want to learn how to jump out of a plane with a parachute, would you be more apt to listen to an instructor who has a degree in education and can recite the best manual written on the subject but has never stepped foot on a plane? Or the guy who has logged a thousand successful jumps and knows exactly what to do, when to do it, and why based on experience? I would listen to both, but put my trust in the guy who has been there and done that.
Chuck

 

[RiverCity]

Do you understand how many folks play major league baseball, NFL, NHL, or NBA that did NOT have a former professional player coach them until they actually made it to their chosen league ??

The played and were coached since they were five, and at each level most likely got better coaching, then HS, then college, and still very FEW professional athletes teach at this level, yep somehow they made it to the pro's... ??

Yet, pool, which is NOT all that tough of a sport, actually, it was rated somewhere below bowling and fishing, MUST have professional level players teaching others how to play the rather simple game that is rated below cheerleading? LOL

No where did I say anyone needed ANY professional instructor or coaching.
I can honestly say that none of the better players Ive been around for my 35 years in this game have had any formal teaching or coaching to the best of my knowledge. I can also state that of all the players I know who have had instruction, none play above a high C low B level after several years of instruction. I recently played with a guy who is taking formal lessons, has been for months. I asked him if the instructor worked with him on his fundamentals, and he proudly stated yes, thats the first thing we covered. And the reason I asked is the person had probably the worst fundamentals that I have ever seen.
My comments were about mid level players arguing with pro level players about what it takes to play pro pool. And if thats not the epitome of bringing a knife to a gun fight, I dont know what is.
Chuck

 

[KRJ]

My comments were about mid level players arguing with pro level players about what it takes to play pro pool. And if thats not the epitome of bringing a knife to a gun fight, I dont know what is.
Chuck

You don't know who is a mid level player and who is not. And yes, open debate on a forum is a known quantity.

Again, nobody seems to know why they don't take softball lessons, tennis lessons, and golf lessons from NON pro's, but do it everyday and twice on Sunday. Tiger does too, as do many other weekend duffers.

99.9% of the folks on the planet do NOT want to reach the skills of a pro player, don't have the time for it, and don't really want the pay cut. Thus, MOST pool players in this country are rank amatuers.

Some, have natural ability, and would NEVER need a lesson, afterall, it's not that difficult a sport. On the other hand, just like golf, folks have been playing pool for a long time without really getting any better. Thus, they seek out some expertise to play better with their buddies.

But to hire a pro player to move up a notch in the APA is beyond ludicrous, because NOT many pro's don't want the work, and are not gonna work for the peanuts local instructors charge

 

[BeiberLvr]

And this is what I think is at the heart of the debate. Yes there are instructors who have studied education, and have a toolbox full of ways to teach based on a students best method of learning. But IMO unless the instructor has the experience of an expert (knowledge based from experience not just "popular belief" standard teachings, reciting it verbatim or adding their spin on it) their toolbox will always be half full at best.
Im not saying pro players are better teachers as a whole. Some are some arent, but when it comes to real world knowledge, the pro players have an insight that cannot be matched by someone who has not been there.
If you want to learn how to jump out of a plane with a parachute, would you be more apt to listen to an instructor who has a degree in education and can recite the best manual written on the subject but has never stepped foot on a plane? Or the guy who has logged a thousand successful jumps and knows exactly what to do, when to do it, and why based on experience? I would listen to both, but put my trust in the guy who has been there and done that.
Chuck

Please elaborate on this knowledge that is just "popular belief."

 

[RiverCity]

You don't know who is a mid level player and who is not. And yes, open debate on a forum is a known quantity.

Again, nobody seems to know why they don't take softball lessons, tennis lessons, and golf lessons from NON pro's, but do it everyday and twice on Sunday. Tiger does too, as do many other weekend duffers.

99.9% of the folks on the planet do NOT want to reach the skills of a pro player, don't have the time for it, and don't really want the pay cut. Thus, MOST pool players in this country are rank amatuers.

Some, have natural ability, and would NEVER need a lesson, afterall, it's not that difficult a sport. On the other hand, just like golf, folks have been playing pool for a long time without really getting any better. Thus, they seek out some expertise to play better with their buddies.

But to hire a pro player to move up a notch in the APA is beyond ludicrous, because NOT many pro's don't want the work, and are not gonna work for the peanuts local instructors charge

You have your agenda, and thats fine. None of what you said has a lot to do with what I said though, so Im not sure what point youre trying to make. Im not saying a pro player makes for a better instructor, but I firmly believe they do have more real world knowledge of what works compared to an instructor who hasnt played at that level.
I was referring to the armchair quarterback mentality that disregards pro players knowledge about the game in favor of instructors who dont have the same well of experience to draw from. It runs rampant on this forum as well as the internet in general.
Chuck

 

[RiverCity]

Please elaborate on this knowledge that is just "popular belief."

Im referring to "textbook" fundamentals, this is "THE" way to grip a cue, this is the RIGHT way to stroke a cue. Information that might have a basis in truth, or might be a common denominator amongst SOME good players. But teaching these popular beliefs as the best way, or the only right way to do something is ludicrous.
Some of the best players in the world have fundamentals, strokes etc that fly right in the face of these "popular beliefs". Reyes, Bustamante, Hopkins, McCready etc etc etc
I mentioned a player earlier who is taking instruction and has bad fundamentals. This person could conceivably get better if they find a way to at least make their poor fundamental repeatable. But as I watched them, there was nothing repeatable about what they were doing, and thats why I asked them about their instructor.
This game is far from a one size fits all endeavor. And while a pro player might say something that doesnt agree with what falls under the conventional teachings of what the top instructors are advocating, it does not make it an invalid method or approach.
But this is the internet, and the armchair quarterback mentality takes over and you have average level players telling pro level players theyre wrong, or theyre nuts, etc etc etc.
Chuck

 

[KRJ]

You have your agenda, and thats fine. None of what you said has a lot to do with what I said though, so Im not sure what point youre trying to make. Im not saying a pro player makes for a better instructor, but I firmly believe they do have more real world knowledge of what works compared to an instructor who hasnt played at that level.
I was referring to the armchair quarterback mentality that disregards pro players knowledge about the game in favor of instructors who dont have the same well of experience to draw from. It runs rampant on this forum as well as the internet in general.
Chuck

except I have no agenda. Tell every pro out there to give lessons.. heck, that would be cool, unfortunately, most of them would not do it. It can be tedious at times, when you find yourself with a student who can't walk and chew gum at the same time

 

[BeiberLvr]

Im referring to "textbook" fundamentals, this is "THE" way to grip a cue, this is the RIGHT way to stroke a cue. Information that might have a basis in truth, or might be a common denominator amongst SOME good players. But teaching these popular beliefs as the best way, or the only right way to do something is ludicrous.
Some of the best players in the world have fundamentals, strokes etc that fly right in the face of these "popular beliefs". Reyes, Bustamante, Hopkins, McCready etc etc etc
I mentioned a player earlier who is taking instruction and has bad fundamentals. This person could conceivably get better if they find a way to at least make their poor fundamental repeatable. But as I watched them, there was nothing repeatable about what they were doing, and thats why I asked them about their instructor.
This game is far from a one size fits all endeavor. And while a pro player might say something that doesnt agree with what falls under the conventional teachings of what the top instructors are advocating, it does not make it an invalid method or approach.
But this is the internet, and the armchair quarterback mentality takes over and you have average level players telling pro level players theyre wrong, or theyre nuts, etc etc etc.
Chuck

And just because the players you listed don't have textbook strokes doesn't make it right. They reached the top, because they stuck with what they knew, and it just so happened they were fortunate enough to have it work out for them.

 

[Neil]

Im referring to "textbook" fundamentals, this is "THE" way to grip a cue, this is the RIGHT way to stroke a cue. Information that might have a basis in truth, or might be a common denominator amongst SOME good players. But teaching these popular beliefs as the best way, or the only right way to do something is ludicrous.
Some of the best players in the world have fundamentals, strokes etc that fly right in the face of these "popular beliefs". Reyes, Bustamante, Hopkins, McCready etc etc etc
I mentioned a player earlier who is taking instruction and has bad fundamentals. This person could conceivably get better if they find a way to at least make their poor fundamental repeatable. But as I watched them, there was nothing repeatable about what they were doing, and thats why I asked them about their instructor.
This game is far from a one size fits all endeavor. And while a pro player might say something that doesnt agree with what falls under the conventional teachings of what the top instructors are advocating, it does not make it an invalid method or approach.
But this is the internet, and the armchair quarterback mentality takes over and you have average level players telling pro level players theyre wrong, or theyre nuts, etc etc etc.
Chuck

You just go ahead and keep looking for that magic pill that only the pros have. And go on thinking that pros are never wrong. Maybe some day you will finally realize there isn't one.

 

[Mikjary]

When you think about it, where did textbook fundamentals come from in any sport? I suppose the best players noticed a basic style that most used and figured what mother nature had bestowed upon them couldn't be wrong.

They all had similarities and methods that were proven to be successful over time. Enter, the Hoppe style stroke. And what about the many champions with the pump stroke? Who's to say what's best?

For a newer to intermediate player, instruction is a good place to start. I believe the advanced players need more mental help and seeking out a pro may help more than a non-professional. We're all different and I know I pick up bad habits out of nowhere.

All pros can benefit from a coach. They can spot trends and head them off before problems arise. They also know the player/athlete and can tailor an individual regimen for them to follow.

I take what I hear with a grain of salt and put it to the test before I'm satisfied. Pros or amateurs, we all have certain insights that just may be of use to somebody else. I don't disregard other people's thoughts, I just take what's right for me and, "put the rest on a shelf" for later.

BTW, I've been having problems with my stance. Could somebody hook me up with a good instructor? Thanks!



Best,
Mike

 

[BeiberLvr]

Seeking instruction from a pro over a non-pro instructor for help with strategy and the mental game is fine, and where experience actually matters.

 

[RiverCity]

And just because the players you listed don't have textbook strokes doesn't make it right. They reached the top, because they stuck with what they knew, and it just so happened they were fortunate enough to have it work out for them.

Doesnt make it right based on what? What Robert Byrne says? What Jack Kohler says? What Scott Lee says? What major tournaments have those guys won? What world champions have they produced? Im not saying an instructor cant help a pro player tweak something here and there. The golf example seems to be the most thrown around on here with Tiger Woods and his coach. Outside eyes are most definitely beneficial to spot areas for improvement some times, nobody should disagree with that.
What Im driving at is a person playing well below pro speed contradicting a pro player based on textbook teachings needs to step back and reevaluate their own game and see what they are missing. Cause trust me, Byrnes Standard Book is not the stuff from which champions are made.
Chuck

 

[Masayoshi]

When you think about it, where did textbook fundamentals come from in any sport? I suppose the best players noticed a basic style that most used and figured what mother nature had bestowed upon them couldn't be wrong.

They all had similarities and methods that were proven to be successful over time. Enter, the Hoppe style stroke. And what about the many champions with the pump stroke? Who's to say what's best?

For a newer to intermediate player, instruction is a good place to start. I believe the advanced players need more mental help and seeking out a pro may help more than a non-professional. We're all different and I know I pick up bad habits out of nowhere.

All pros can benefit from a coach. They can spot trends and head them off before problems arise. They also know the player/athlete and can tailor an individual regimen for them to follow.

I take what I hear with a grain of salt and put it to the test before I'm satisfied. Pros or amateurs, we all have certain insights that just may be of use to somebody else. I don't disregard other people's thoughts, I just take what's right for me and, "put the rest on a shelf" for later.

BTW, I've been having problems with my stance. Could somebody hook me up with a good instructor? Thanks!

View attachment 344778

Best,
Mike

As far as I am concerned, the ONLY thing that is fundamental is that you can hit the cue ball where you want at the speed you want with reliability. How you get to that goal is a matter of searching for the best style that suits your physical abilities, temperament, h/e coordination, etc. i would venture that everyone who has reached a professional level has tried MANY different ways of hitting the ball and have settled with the style that gives them the most results. Saying they are wrong for choosing an unorthodox style is like saying Einstein was wrong for not sticking with Newtonian physics.

 

[RiverCity]

You just go ahead and keep looking for that magic pill that only the pros have. And go on thinking that pros are never wrong. Maybe some day you will finally realize there isn't one.

I agree, there is no magic pill Neil. Never said there was one, and Ive never looked for one. Ive never needed one. Never said a pro cant be wrong either. Putting words in someones mouth and trying to make your points based on those fallacies is just foolish, and makes you look bad.
If anything we agree on most things, but you like to argue so much you cant help yourself.
Chuck

 

[Neil]

Doesnt make it right based on what? What Robert Byrne says? What Jack Kohler says? What Scott Lee says? What major tournaments have those guys won? What world champions have they produced? Im not saying an instructor cant help a pro player tweak something here and there. The golf example seems to be the most thrown around on here with Tiger Woods and his coach. Outside eyes are most definitely beneficial to spot areas for improvement some times, nobody should disagree with that.
What Im driving at is a person playing well below pro speed contradicting a pro player based on textbook teachings needs to step back and reevaluate their own game and see what they are missing. Cause trust me, Byrnes Standard Book is not the stuff from which champions are made.
Chuck

If you really want to know, after the basics, it's 90% mental. And yes, there is a "pro secret" that is a magic pill. It's called aderall (sp?) Not all use it, but you would be amazed at just how many do use it. And how different their game is when they don't use it.

 

[Neil]

I agree, there is no magic pill Neil. Never said there was one, and Ive never looked for one. Ive never needed one. Never said a pro cant be wrong either. Putting words in someones mouth and trying to make your points based on those fallacies is just foolish, and makes you look bad.
If anything we agree on most things, but you like to argue so much you cant help yourself.
Chuck

WOW! I'M putting words in your mouth??? If you think pros can't be wrong, then what in the world is your problem with people correcting pros??? The only other possibility is that you think being a pro is some kind of royalty and us mere peasants are not worthy of correcting them. And, I hate arguing. But, I hate misinformation even more.