Stop recommending Players HXT?
- Thread starter ScottK
- Start date
My bad.
That looks scary to me.
That schematic looks like they actually drill a hole in the shaft and the tenon is an insert.
Why, because I didn't agree with you 100%.
Haha.
That's some pretty funny stuff there. So some of these butcher cue repair people had it right all along.
They put a ferrule on that was too long for the tenon, then just glued the tip on to make it low deflection leaving it hollow just behind the tip:thumbup:.
Nah, agreeing with me 100% would make you much worse than a dick.
You did seem to act like I was some kind of asshole for thinking about buying a lathe. I never said I'd buy it and instantly be some hot shot repair guy.
I'm not getting your point, but the ferrule isn't hollow, it's filled with a light weight polymer.
The skinny shafts have a 1/2" ferrule.
I own two HXT shafts, one a skinny my son uses and mine is the standard 12.75 but was customized to 12.5, I've had two tip replacements on mine and one on my sons and never heard about anything from the person replacing the tip that the ferrule was acting funny or was loose or unstable.
As far as the shaft goes, the only LD shafts I tried that had as good of a hit feel were all from custom cue makers. No Predator, OB, McDermott LD shaft has the same solid feel and all the others made the cue lighter in the front.
It's probably due to the fact that the HXT shafts are solid maple and not made up of laminates.
+1
It was on the repair guy to communicate with OP. Instead, repair guy took it upon himself to 'fix' the problem... Which resulted in voiding the warranty.
It's easy to say (and more than likely) that the repair guy wanted to have the shaft ready for the OP, and took it upon himself to 'fix' the shaft. So yes, one would think the repair guy's intentions were good.
But any decent repair guy would/should/could have easily contacted Players to explain the situation and get further instructions. And relayed that information to the OP.
And then let OP make the call.
The repair guy owes the OP a new PLAYERS shaft...
Most likely it's because they are not hollowed .
That's not an LD shaft imo.
It just has a lightweight ferrule.
The light weight ferrule reduces end mass, which in turn reduces squirt, which is what makes it a "low deflection" shaft.
By how much ?
That mass isn't much.
It's the first 5" of the shaft's end-mass that really matter .
Do you really think the light weight polymer does something?
So that's what makes the special ferrule low deflection.......:smile:
I can see all kinds of problems with that ferrule design. From the looks of it,this could have happened to anyone.
I'm also pretty sure this isn't the first time this has happened.
With STEEL in a lathe,you can only stick 3x the diameter out of the chuck before you start getting tool/part deflection,and risk it flying out of the chuck with too heavy of a cut. This is solved by using a live center.
Now,add to that the fact that this is a wood shaft,and you need to be as close to the chuck as possible.
I had a customer bring me a pre-Cat Predator one time where another repair guy left 6" sticking out in front of the chuck and tried to face it off.
The wood and carbon fiber tube broke off completely. I told the customer it was a total loss and told him to take it back to the guy that broke it and sit on his porch until he paid him for a new shaft.
I've had 3 "normal" tenons break on me while installing a ferrule. I fixed all 3,and none of those shafts have come back for issues.
I also called them immediately,and told them what was going on BEFORE I did anything else. All 3 customers are still with me.
At least I know now that if I run into one of these shafts,that certain precautions need to be taken so this doesn't happen to me. Tommy D.
I'm also pretty sure this isn't the first time this has happened.
With STEEL in a lathe,you can only stick 3x the diameter out of the chuck before you start getting tool/part deflection,and risk it flying out of the chuck with too heavy of a cut. This is solved by using a live center.
Now,add to that the fact that this is a wood shaft,and you need to be as close to the chuck as possible.
I had a customer bring me a pre-Cat Predator one time where another repair guy left 6" sticking out in front of the chuck and tried to face it off.
The wood and carbon fiber tube broke off completely. I told the customer it was a total loss and told him to take it back to the guy that broke it and sit on his porch until he paid him for a new shaft.
I've had 3 "normal" tenons break on me while installing a ferrule. I fixed all 3,and none of those shafts have come back for issues.
I also called them immediately,and told them what was going on BEFORE I did anything else. All 3 customers are still with me.
At least I know now that if I run into one of these shafts,that certain precautions need to be taken so this doesn't happen to me. Tommy D.
a theory
Scott,
Excellent photographs! Those along with the illustrations from the manufacturer lead me to some speculations, a theory concerning what happened. I wanted to see if there was damage to the outside of the ferrule, almost a given if there was the kind of train wreck caused by sloppy set-up or careless work on the tip installer's part. The outside of the ferrule and tip too for that matter seems entirely free of the type of damage I would expect to see if the installer was at fault when trimming the tip. Simplest explanation tossed out the window!
Now looking at the interior, both the photographs and the manufacturer's illustrations: What I see is that there is an unusual amount of load borne by the area where the ferrule is glued to the shaft face and that first little short step that the long tenon goes into. The ferrule has to be out of a fairly flexible material as well as the miracle filler for this to be a low deflection shaft. That indicates that the glue joints at the base of the ferrule and at the short large diameter step are stressed every time a ball is hit. In most designs the structural integrity of the assembly comes from the mechanical assembly and the glues/adhesives only serve to hold the components in place, they don't bear a significant load.
I strongly suspect that the adhesive failed at the line where the ferule joins the shaft on the outside of the cue and in that step area adjacent to this visible area. Then the tiny center tenon takes a heavier load than it was designed for both when balls are hit and when someone works on the shaft.
My guess, you heard the occasional odd sound because of the movement between ferrule and shaft where the glue joint failed and that failure was also the primary cause of the end assembly breaking off the shaft. The long thin tenon may have already been damaged before bringing the shaft in for a new tip also since it was bearing a load it was never meant to bear if the joint failure I suspect actually existed.
My opinion, a questionable design that relies heavily on adhesives that are being asked to bear unusual loadings and a resultant adhesive failure are at the root of your problem. The material of the ferrule could have also failed at a microscopic level where some of it was allowed to move and some was held in place by the adhesive at the base. Unusual demands are made of the ferrule in this design too, don't know if it was up to the task or not. Yet another issue, end grain glue ups of wood are failure prone under load. This design relies pretty heavily on glue ups to end grain. A standard design gets much more assistance from side grain glue up than this design does.
I don't think the repair man bears any responsibility for the ferrule assembly breaking off. If unfamiliar with this design, as I was, the cue man took some things for granted and was burned. He should have caught that this was an unusual construction after it came apart and before his repairs. If he just looked at the shaft and not the piece broken off it would be very easy to not notice however.
I would send your photographs to the manufacturer, I think they should eat some or all of the costs of a new shaft. Anything left remaining, the cue man should cover. He made an error any of us might have made if unfamiliar with that shaft, never-the-less it was an error on his part.
With twenty-twenty hindsight he should have stepped away from the job and contacted everyone involved when the end of the shaft came apart. I have replaced a handful of tenons on conventional shafts and only explained to the customer what I did when returning the shaft however, not that big of a deal on a standard shaft and a well done repair is almost always stronger than the tenon and shaft was to begin with. The cue man's mistake was not recognizing an oddball shaft when doing what seemed a routine job. I could have made the same mistake, I would have covered it but would have taken it up with the manufacturer myself afterwards. I suspect the manufacturer is seeing failures in the area we see in your photographs, the step area I discussed.
Very much my opinion here. My opinion might be different if I had everything in hand to look at very closely under magnification but I think I have built a likely chain of events.
Hu
Pictures as requested. If the quality is insufficient I can take more tonight with better lighting.
Thanks.
Scott,
Excellent photographs! Those along with the illustrations from the manufacturer lead me to some speculations, a theory concerning what happened. I wanted to see if there was damage to the outside of the ferrule, almost a given if there was the kind of train wreck caused by sloppy set-up or careless work on the tip installer's part. The outside of the ferrule and tip too for that matter seems entirely free of the type of damage I would expect to see if the installer was at fault when trimming the tip. Simplest explanation tossed out the window!
Now looking at the interior, both the photographs and the manufacturer's illustrations: What I see is that there is an unusual amount of load borne by the area where the ferrule is glued to the shaft face and that first little short step that the long tenon goes into. The ferrule has to be out of a fairly flexible material as well as the miracle filler for this to be a low deflection shaft. That indicates that the glue joints at the base of the ferrule and at the short large diameter step are stressed every time a ball is hit. In most designs the structural integrity of the assembly comes from the mechanical assembly and the glues/adhesives only serve to hold the components in place, they don't bear a significant load.
I strongly suspect that the adhesive failed at the line where the ferule joins the shaft on the outside of the cue and in that step area adjacent to this visible area. Then the tiny center tenon takes a heavier load than it was designed for both when balls are hit and when someone works on the shaft.
My guess, you heard the occasional odd sound because of the movement between ferrule and shaft where the glue joint failed and that failure was also the primary cause of the end assembly breaking off the shaft. The long thin tenon may have already been damaged before bringing the shaft in for a new tip also since it was bearing a load it was never meant to bear if the joint failure I suspect actually existed.
My opinion, a questionable design that relies heavily on adhesives that are being asked to bear unusual loadings and a resultant adhesive failure are at the root of your problem. The material of the ferrule could have also failed at a microscopic level where some of it was allowed to move and some was held in place by the adhesive at the base. Unusual demands are made of the ferrule in this design too, don't know if it was up to the task or not. Yet another issue, end grain glue ups of wood are failure prone under load. This design relies pretty heavily on glue ups to end grain. A standard design gets much more assistance from side grain glue up than this design does.
I don't think the repair man bears any responsibility for the ferrule assembly breaking off. If unfamiliar with this design, as I was, the cue man took some things for granted and was burned. He should have caught that this was an unusual construction after it came apart and before his repairs. If he just looked at the shaft and not the piece broken off it would be very easy to not notice however.
I would send your photographs to the manufacturer, I think they should eat some or all of the costs of a new shaft. Anything left remaining, the cue man should cover. He made an error any of us might have made if unfamiliar with that shaft, never-the-less it was an error on his part.
With twenty-twenty hindsight he should have stepped away from the job and contacted everyone involved when the end of the shaft came apart. I have replaced a handful of tenons on conventional shafts and only explained to the customer what I did when returning the shaft however, not that big of a deal on a standard shaft and a well done repair is almost always stronger than the tenon and shaft was to begin with. The cue man's mistake was not recognizing an oddball shaft when doing what seemed a routine job. I could have made the same mistake, I would have covered it but would have taken it up with the manufacturer myself afterwards. I suspect the manufacturer is seeing failures in the area we see in your photographs, the step area I discussed.
Very much my opinion here. My opinion might be different if I had everything in hand to look at very closely under magnification but I think I have built a likely chain of events.
Hu
Thanks for the kind words... Much appreciated, but just trying to help a fellow AZer out if possible.. :thumbup:
Hmm... This seems like a very sound theory/explanation to me.
I'm a Players/Pure X dealer, as well as a repairman. I recommend and sell A LOT of these HXT shafts, and the 11.75mm Skinny one is really really popular now. Just off the top of my head, I can think of a fairly decent number of guys that play out of my place that are currently using these shafts. I've replaced several dozen of their tips, and personally haven't had a problem like this yet...
Not sure if I would get an honest answer or not if I were to ask my rep if there has been a number of issues like this one, but I'll ask anyway on Monday. Can't hurt..
On a conspiracy theory note, I just received a shipment of Pure X cues with the 11.75mm Skinny shaft a few days ago. I had been waiting for them for several months, with the expected delivery date getting pushed back at least 3 times. I did wonder what the heck was going on, but now looking back, maybe they had quality control issues, or design issues that needed tweaked? Just thinking out loud, and as I said already, I haven't had any problems like this arise from any I've sold...