Exactly, and I'm pretty sure Mosconi had suffered a stroke prior to that video being made which is why he stopped competing.
Would players of today wipe the floor against past players....
- Thread starter dom_poppa
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Exactly, and I'm pretty sure Mosconi had suffered a stroke prior to that video being made which is why he stopped competing.
You make a good point Lou when you say that players of the past played nothing but straight pool, so with that understanding they figure to have played the game better than players of today. I agree. It's agreed that there was much more straight pool played in the past then there is today and the players were more in tune with playing the game the correct way but what about the other games like 9ball, one pocket, and rotation? It stands to reason that today's players 'should play' all games better because of the fact that there are more good players today and they have had the luxury of learning from all the players that have come before them. There are many many more instructors today then in years past, and also there are more players today that are willing to share their wisdom and techniques then there were back in the day. However, these points should not in any way be a 'measuring stick' in ones ability as a player, there were many players of years past that if they were playing today would still be recognized as the best in this era. Jmo.
Bill Incardona
most of today's players are hothouse players
Most of today's players are hothouse players, me included. Forty years or so ago I went into a place with a few ratty old tables, bad lighting, crappy cloth, maybe bugs all over the tables from no air conditioning. Often you could pinch the cloth on the table and raise it up six inches to a foot. Grab the rattiest cue in the place that had a tip on it and dominate. Even then a loose weight or cracked stick bugged me, the noise. Other than that, stealthily sand the splinters out of the shaft area and touch up the tip with a brad tool when I got a chance and roll.
Now, I normally step into a place and if there is a loose pocket leather or plastic I move tables. Same if there is a little sunlight when somebody opens a door. Sometimes just the distraction of being by a door. I wipe the rails before I start play. My cue is tuned to me and the tip carefully groomed. If somebody farts or belches I go to the other end of the room.
Yesterday's players moved to today would quickly adapt and climb to their same place in the pecking order. Today's players moved back in time would struggle and take considerably longer but they too would adapt and return to their same place in the pecking order.
Play one event on equipment foreign to both the old and today's players and the players from yesteryear would dominate. A few players of today, particularly those from the Philippines, would adapt and be competitive. I have long thought that is one reason for the quality of the Philippine players play, they adapt to conditions in a flash having played on everything from tables with pucks and tables outdoors to world class equipment.
Today's players are great but as a general statement aren't nearly as flexible as the players from seventy-five or a hundred years ago. Raw skills, the players of yesterday knew far more. They had to in order to play on directional cloth and in the conditions in general they played in. The players of today should be better athletically but a pool table may be one place that doesn't matter. Vision hasn't improved nor has hand eye coordination.
I'd take Efren in his prime against the field if he got on the table with a shot. Playing the players of yesteryear that might never happen in a single event. Also, Efren is somewhat a player of yesteryear and today, probably have to disqualify him from my daydream one time event.
Hu
Most of today's players are hothouse players, me included. Forty years or so ago I went into a place with a few ratty old tables, bad lighting, crappy cloth, maybe bugs all over the tables from no air conditioning. Often you could pinch the cloth on the table and raise it up six inches to a foot. Grab the rattiest cue in the place that had a tip on it and dominate. Even then a loose weight or cracked stick bugged me, the noise. Other than that, stealthily sand the splinters out of the shaft area and touch up the tip with a brad tool when I got a chance and roll.
Now, I normally step into a place and if there is a loose pocket leather or plastic I move tables. Same if there is a little sunlight when somebody opens a door. Sometimes just the distraction of being by a door. I wipe the rails before I start play. My cue is tuned to me and the tip carefully groomed. If somebody farts or belches I go to the other end of the room.
Yesterday's players moved to today would quickly adapt and climb to their same place in the pecking order. Today's players moved back in time would struggle and take considerably longer but they too would adapt and return to their same place in the pecking order.
Play one event on equipment foreign to both the old and today's players and the players from yesteryear would dominate. A few players of today, particularly those from the Philippines, would adapt and be competitive. I have long thought that is one reason for the quality of the Philippine players play, they adapt to conditions in a flash having played on everything from tables with pucks and tables outdoors to world class equipment.
Today's players are great but as a general statement aren't nearly as flexible as the players from seventy-five or a hundred years ago. Raw skills, the players of yesterday knew far more. They had to in order to play on directional cloth and in the conditions in general they played in. The players of today should be better athletically but a pool table may be one place that doesn't matter. Vision hasn't improved nor has hand eye coordination.
I'd take Efren in his prime against the field if he got on the table with a shot. Playing the players of yesteryear that might never happen in a single event. Also, Efren is somewhat a player of yesteryear and today, probably have to disqualify him from my daydream one time event.
Hu
Mr. Incardona -
But the match of all time would have been Ronnie Allen at his top verses Efren Reyes at his top.
My money would be on Efren.
Whats your thought, and I only care about one pocket, the other games really don't matter....
Ken
Mr. Incardona -
But the match of all time would have been Ronnie Allen at his top verses Efren Reyes at his top.
My money would be on Efren.
Whats your thought, and I only care about one pocket, the other games really don't matter....
Ken
Ken, if you know me and i'm sure you do, at least from my commentary and my obvious admiration of Reyes you would then already know my answer.
There may be a few that may disagree with me (Jay Helfert) but Reyes imo is by far the best one pocket player I have ever played, and I have played the best in the last 50 years, including the great Ronnie Allen. Ronnie was a great player, make no mistake about that, he was the best of his time and could be imo the second best of all time. Some say that Eddie Taylor was the best back then..50 and 60's..So I would have to think based off of some of the players that knew much more than me about that era..Corn Bread, Marshall Carpenter, Weenie Beenie, and a few more creditable players all agreed that Taylor was the best. I played Ronnie a lot of one pocket in the 70's, he played me 10 to 8 and that was before I truly understood the game. It was a tough game for both of us, I beat him the only time he played me 9 to 7, however, the many times I played him 10 to 8 it was a dog fight with him actually coming ahead but not by much. Based off of that experience and playing Reyes many times I have to conclude that Reyes is clearly the better player. Also Reyes gave great players 8 to 7 and 10 to 8 and won easily. Cliff Joyner when he was playing his best couldn't win getting 8 to 7, it wasn't close. Steve Cook was beaten by Reyes in Tampa, Steve's home room getting 10 to 8. Allen Hopkins as great as he was, and is, was beaten in NJ. getting 9 to 8. The great Grady Mathews couldn't come close to Reyes ..even.. Only because Grady wouldn't accept a spot. Matter of fact, I have never seen or heard of Reyes losing to any one playing one pocket, Don't quote me on the Hopkins match, I believe it was Hopkins getting 9 to 8, but it could have been even, never the less it was Reyes who won.
Straight pool would have to go to Mosconi.
Nine ball from what I hear from great players would go to Harold Worst.
One Pocket would go to Reyes
Rotation would also go to Reyes
Bank pool would go to Eddie Taylor
8ball would also go to Reyes (almost forgot about 8ball )
JMO
Bill Incardona
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I love how you guys use the Lassiter quote like it was gospel and not just a hustler talking a little smack to get in people's heads a little more then a player of his amazing already was lol
FWIW Efren is also the best 8-ball player I've ever seen.
It's a hypothetical question which can not be answered. Tiger Woods came into golf and dominated. It just made players change their game to keep up. It's not like real sports where players today are bigger stronger and faster. It's pool and great players would adapt to whatever the conditions were.
Yup, in addition, that video was *edited* (those racks weren't contiguous). See post #14 above.
-Sean
"the difference that makes the difference......the mental game"
Well said, Billy.....your words are obviously from true wisdom and vast experience.
I ask Johnny Archer who he'd rather play against "the current top players," or the "top players of Sigel, Strickland, and Hall's era".
....he said "I'd rather play against players of today without a doubt, they are not as strong mentally"......and that's "the difference that makes the difference......the mental game" - 'The Mental Game is the Teacher'
Well said, Billy.....your words are obviously from true wisdom and vast experience.
I ask Johnny Archer who he'd rather play against "the current top players," or the "top players of Sigel, Strickland, and Hall's era".
....he said "I'd rather play against players of today without a doubt, they are not as strong mentally"......and that's "the difference that makes the difference......the mental game" - 'The Mental Game is the Teacher'
legends
Lets agree Efron could out kick Ronnie but to say he could beat Ronnie both in their prime is like ******** everyone has one. If Harold Worst would have played one game who knows . Instead he played them all and won world titles and gambled his own money.Opinions ? All around best player Harold W.
Lets agree Efron could out kick Ronnie but to say he could beat Ronnie both in their prime is like ******** everyone has one. If Harold Worst would have played one game who knows . Instead he played them all and won world titles and gambled his own money.Opinions ? All around best player Harold W.
todays equipment vs. 50 years ago
I think the guys running 350-400+ balls in straight pool on the Diamond tables with 4 1/2" pockets is a more impressive feat than the 526 of Mosconi on an 8' oversize table with 5" pockets. Could Mosconi have accomplished these modern high runs on such tough equipment? Possibly, but we will never know. Regardless, he is one of the sports all time best players just like Bobby Jones was for golf. Always makes good debate subject!!
I think the guys running 350-400+ balls in straight pool on the Diamond tables with 4 1/2" pockets is a more impressive feat than the 526 of Mosconi on an 8' oversize table with 5" pockets. Could Mosconi have accomplished these modern high runs on such tough equipment? Possibly, but we will never know. Regardless, he is one of the sports all time best players just like Bobby Jones was for golf. Always makes good debate subject!!
JA was winning a lot in the 90's.
Would he better today against SVB. Orcollo and Ko ?
A recent proposition regarding Olympic sprinters was discussed on NPR. They compared the speed of Jesse Owens gold metal run compared to the speeds of current gold medalists.....specifically Bolt.
They noted that had you compared Jesse Owens time to those of the most recent Olympics, then he would have finished dead last in the field. But there is a caveat.
In the old days they didn't have the foot brace that current sprinters use to get greater thrust off the mark. In the old days they simply dug out a small divot for leverage. The shoes were probably heavier too.
They noted that had Jesse Owens used the same equipment in getting off the mark as Bolt used, then Jesse Owens would have finished in 2nd place just a fraction behind Bolt.
It seems that human skill has neither improved nor diminished significantly in the last 80 years, but rather the equipment has made all the difference.
They noted that had you compared Jesse Owens time to those of the most recent Olympics, then he would have finished dead last in the field. But there is a caveat.
In the old days they didn't have the foot brace that current sprinters use to get greater thrust off the mark. In the old days they simply dug out a small divot for leverage. The shoes were probably heavier too.
They noted that had Jesse Owens used the same equipment in getting off the mark as Bolt used, then Jesse Owens would have finished in 2nd place just a fraction behind Bolt.
It seems that human skill has neither improved nor diminished significantly in the last 80 years, but rather the equipment has made all the difference.
JA and a seven or eight rail Z kick
Back in that day I saw Johnny attempt a seven or eight rail "Z" kick at a ball on a bar table with at least ten balls left on the table for traffic. He had held his stick over the table back and forth for a couple minutes cyphering things out so no mistake the shot was deliberate. His ball was one diamond out frozen or near frozen on the head rail. The cue ball was frozen to a ball about an inch off the foot rail so he had to go foot rail first. The ball he was shooting at didn't fall but did remain in the jaws tying up a pocket. Remains by far the toughest shot I have seen someone even attempt in competition or a gambling match. That was his fifth shot. The first three, he called the eight on the break and made it in the pocket called. The fourth break the eight slow rolled to the side pocket like it had the previous two racks and stopped less than an inch from falling dead in line.
Johnny is a hell of a player now. Back in his prime or even before he hit his prime he was amazing. No doubt he could beat anybody in the world on a given day. That is the thing about all of these discussions, best and best on a given day are two different things.
Hu
Back in that day I saw Johnny attempt a seven or eight rail "Z" kick at a ball on a bar table with at least ten balls left on the table for traffic. He had held his stick over the table back and forth for a couple minutes cyphering things out so no mistake the shot was deliberate. His ball was one diamond out frozen or near frozen on the head rail. The cue ball was frozen to a ball about an inch off the foot rail so he had to go foot rail first. The ball he was shooting at didn't fall but did remain in the jaws tying up a pocket. Remains by far the toughest shot I have seen someone even attempt in competition or a gambling match. That was his fifth shot. The first three, he called the eight on the break and made it in the pocket called. The fourth break the eight slow rolled to the side pocket like it had the previous two racks and stopped less than an inch from falling dead in line.
Johnny is a hell of a player now. Back in his prime or even before he hit his prime he was amazing. No doubt he could beat anybody in the world on a given day. That is the thing about all of these discussions, best and best on a given day are two different things.
Hu
So then why hasn't any of these modern players making these high runs repeated the feat? Oversize 8' tables with loose pockets are still around. They also have the benefit of LD shafts, better balls, and better cloth. Oh, and video cameras to prove it. Yet Mosconi's record still stands.
Who goes around PAID to do straight pool exhibitions these days ?
The greats of the past didn't have or need the inspiration, knowledge, experiences and secrets of the modern players to do what they did. But where would the modern era be without the players from the past? What have today's players given to the game other than participation? The world of pool is owned by those of the past. Everyone after simply pays rent. And that includes Efren.
Why does it have to be a paid exhibition? The question was, if these modern players' runs are more impressive, and they're better players, why does Mosconi's record still stand?
One must be paid to break a remarkable record ? If I could do it, or you could do it, or any of your friends could do it, or anyone at league could do, or anyone at the amateur tourneys could do it, they all would DO it.
Amazing all the folks that say they could do it, but won't do it unless someone pays them..wtf ?
Basically, that is like saying I could beat Earl if he every comes to my house, plays on my table, on a Saturday night beween 11pm and 11:30pm, in a month that ends in a "y", and he brings $250K cash with him.
If he does not show, he's chicken