Help me understand the logic behind this rule

[sbpoolleague]

No Option On Miss

...if you miss a called shot OR pocket the wrong ball your opponent has the option.

I'm pretty sure if you miss a called shot and nothing goes in (and if no foul was committed), the rules say that your opponent MUST play the
cue ball from the position left by you. Opponent has no option.

The way I have always looked at the option rule in 10-ball is that it is a penalty for illegally pocketing a ball.

 

[seven_7days]

I don't understand this rule: In (some versions of) 10-ball, if you call safe but make a ball, your opponent has the option to make you shoot again. I don't get it. Sometimes you may want to intentionally make a ball and call safe, so what? And if you accidentally make another ball somewhere else on the table, so what? Why should you be penalized for that?

I understand, and like, the rule that if you miss a called shot or pocket the wrong ball your opponent has the option. The reason for it is that it takes some luck out of the game. If you miss and leave your opponent in a shitty situation they can give it back to you. You're the one who screwed up.

But what's the corresponding logic for not allowing made balls on safety? It seems like a bad, unnecessary rule to me.

Imagine at hill-hill, your opponent inadvertently lands perfectly dead straight in on the 8 ball inches apart and
frozen at the bottom rail...meanwhile the 9 ball is sitting at middle of the opposite short end of the table and underneath the 10.

Now, just before he pockets this gimme eight ball, he looks to you and says "safe"...

this is you

and this is why.

 

[jsp]

Imagine at hill-hill, your opponent inadvertently lands perfectly dead straight in on the 8 ball inches apart and
frozen at the bottom rail...meanwhile the 9 ball is sitting at middle of the opposite short end of the table and underneath the 10.

Now, just before he pockets this gimme eight ball, he looks to you and says "safe"...

this is you

and this is why.

Correct.

We've had this discussion several times before. Actually, the original rules over 6 years ago didn't have the option of the opponent passing it back if a safety is called and a ball is pocketed.

See this thread where I brought up the logic behind the rule change (too bad cuetable no longer works). Sure enough, the rules were officially changed a few weeks later.

 

[Matt]

I don't understand this rule: In (some versions of) 10-ball, if you call safe but make a ball, your opponent has the option to make you shoot again. I don't get it. Sometimes you may want to intentionally make a ball and call safe, so what? And if you accidentally make another ball somewhere else on the table, so what? Why should you be penalized for that?

I understand, and like, the rule that if you miss a called shot or pocket the wrong ball your opponent has the option. The reason for it is that it takes some luck out of the game. If you miss and leave your opponent in a shitty situation they can give it back to you. You're the one who screwed up.

But what's the corresponding logic for not allowing made balls on safety? It seems like a bad, unnecessary rule to me.

Playing safe by making the next ball in a rotation game is way too easy. Just think of all the times where you couldn't get to the next ball easily or had a cluster to deal with that you weren't in position to break up. If you could make the ball you're on and make your opponent shoot next in those situations, why even bother planning ahead? Half the challenge of playing defense in a rotation game is the fact that you have to hide the ball you're shooting.

In 8-ball, this type of defense makes more sense because you're playing to hide your opponent from all of their balls on the table, not the one you're shooting.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Correct.

We've had this discussion several times before. Actually, the original rules over 6 years ago didn't have the option of the opponent passing it back if a safety is called and a ball is pocketed.

See this thread where I brought up the logic behind the rule change (too bad cuetable no longer works). Sure enough, the rules were officially changed a few weeks later.

Unfortunately, the possibility of calling "safe" was left in the rules. It is never to the player's advantage to call "safe".

He is much better calling the most likely ball and pocket that that the ball might conceivably go in if he miscues or gets a funny kiss or some such. If he has called safe or called nothing in such a situation, his opponent has the choice of who will shoot next. If he has been lucky and called the right pocket, his opponent has no choice.

I suppose a "safe" call really means, "I'm not trying anything on purpose and do not want to get lucky on a fluke pot."

 

[sfleinen]

Playing safe by making the next ball in a rotation game is way too easy. Just think of all the times where you couldn't get to the next ball easily or had a cluster to deal with that you weren't in position to break up. If you could make the ball you're on and make your opponent shoot next in those situations, why even bother planning ahead? Half the challenge of playing defense in a rotation game is the fact that you have to hide the ball you're shooting.

In 8-ball, this type of defense makes more sense because you're playing to hide your opponent from all of their balls on the table, not the one you're shooting.

I agree with this -- good post. The idea behind "option to incoming player for a ball pocketed on a safety" is two-fold:

1. To get rid of the nonsense where a player just doesn't want to play the shot and stay at the table, but merely wants to get rid of the current object ball. Matt's right -- it's w-a-y too easy in rotations games to play safe by pocketing the object ball and making your opponent deal with a difficult table layout. "Why even bother planning ahead?" Indeed!

2. To instill a bit of commitment to the game. You either commit to a shot that pockets a ball, or you commit to a safety. You can't have both, in the same vein that in the Predator ProAm Tour rules, you can't play two-way shots. The rules are forcing you to COMMIT.

I like Bob Jewett's thoughts on the mistake of calling safety when playing by WPA rules. The best option here is always trying to shoot something (and call it), especially if "lots of bad things could happen" -- e.g. lots of balls scatter, or you're not exactly sure where each and every ball is going to go. Calling safety on a shot where you have lots of cue ball or object ball movement is asking for it (i.e. wrongfully pocketed ball).

Good thread!
-Sean

 

[BRussell]

Thanks for the discussion - I understand now why you might not want to let someone play safe after pocketing the next ball. I'm not sure I agree with it but I understand.

And I wish there was a way to do that and still let people hide their cue ball but accidentally make a different ball up table.

 

[victorl]

Good points guys.
What do you think about only giving the option if the lowest ball on the table is made on a safety call.
That would bring back the safety call and eliminate the easy safety on the lowest ball.
Or would it be too complicated?

 

[alstl]

9 ball is not a call shot game.

You don't call anything.

I prefer that to the current 10 ball rules. I don't know why they didn't simply apply Texas express rules to 10 ball.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I prefer that to the current 10 ball rules. I don't know why they didn't simply apply Texas express rules to 10 ball.

The main motivation for introducing 10 ball was to remove as much of the luck in 9 ball as possible. You can argue whether that was a reasonable thing to do and whether it was accomplished, but that was the goal and the reason behind the differences.

 

[eastcoast_chris]

The main reason that making a ball when calling safe give the option to the incoming player is that is would be far too easy to play safeties in a rotation game.

Say the the 10 ball is on the top rail, 9 is on the bottom rail and you mess up and get straight on the 9 ball.

If you could make the 9 and play "safe" then the it would be far too easy play safe ... this situation (can't easily make it to the next ball) comes up all the time in rotation games. 9 ball does away with it by saying you have to play anytime you make any ball. 10 ball is exactly the same, just adds the safe/call rules.... Which in my opinion makes 10 ball 100x the game that 9 ball is for truly competing without the element of luck.

 

[Okie]

I am of the opinion that two shot shoot out rules have the perfect balance between minimizing luck and maximizing strategy.

Good thread,

Ken

 

[TrumanHW]

I TOTALLY agree with you. How is intentionally pocketing a ball less deserving of controlling the table than getting BIH and freezing someone to a ball an inch away with a stop shot?

On the other hand, sometimes you have barely an inch more than a balls-width to try to get position and an angle in order to move the CB to your next shot. Why isn't intentionally pocketing that ball a valid choice of recourse?

If not that, then 2-shot with push out, at least.

If neither of those, then how's about call-shot and call-safe; which yes, eliminates the two way shot but forces someone to shoot again if they leave you crap for position.

........but the fans, they just love the luck. They want to see you get tortured by having to withstand uneven opportunities.

 

[mantis99]

Without it you could call a safety every time you can shoot the lowest numbered ball in but can't get shape on the next one.

Yup!! A safe requires that you touch the CB with the OB and then separate them. If the next ball in line is at the other end of the table, you are just eliminating the current OB and not having to control two balls for a safety. That makes safety play way too easy.

 

[mantis99]

I TOTALLY agree with you. How is intentionally pocketing a ball less deserving of controlling the table than getting BIH and freezing someone to a ball an inch away with a stop shot?

On the other hand, sometimes you have barely an inch more than a balls-width to try to get position and an angle in order to move the CB to your next shot. Why isn't intentionally pocketing that ball a valid choice of recourse?

If not that, then 2-shot with push out, at least.

If neither of those, then how's about call-shot and call-safe; which yes, eliminates the two way shot but forces someone to shoot again if they leave you crap for position.

........but the fans, they just love the luck. They want to see you get tortured by having to withstand uneven opportunities.

Again, safety play requires you to control 2 balls that have touched each other, which is much harder than only controlling the final path of one. To pocket the OB and just leave the CB on the same side of the table with the next OB already buried on the other side of the table requires very little skill, and leaves the opponent in a very bad position without you doing much to create it. 10 ball requires that you earn whatever you get, and your idea of a safety here is far too easy to accomplish.

 

[mantis99]

I agree, it's a silly rule that makes calling a safety pointless.
There are times when you play a great safety, only to have a ball carom off traffic and fall into the pocket, and then you're screwed.

You can't compare it to 9-ball because that's not a call shot game. In 8-ball, you can call safe and pocket a ball and play automatically passes to your opponent. 10-ball should be the same.

In 8 ball there are generally more balls on the table making a safe much more difficult. Its still a bit silly in 8 ball though. Not that I am one, but I think most higher level players would prefer the current rules, because a safety with a pocketed ball is so much easier, and would make it easier for lesser players to duck a runout from a better player.

 

[sfleinen]

I TOTALLY agree with you. How is intentionally pocketing a ball less deserving of controlling the table than getting BIH and freezing someone to a ball an inch away with a stop shot?

On the other hand, sometimes you have barely an inch more than a balls-width to try to get position and an angle in order to move the CB to your next shot. Why isn't intentionally pocketing that ball a valid choice of recourse?

If not that, then 2-shot with push out, at least.

If neither of those, then how's about call-shot and call-safe; which yes, eliminates the two way shot but forces someone to shoot again if they leave you crap for position.

........but the fans, they just love the luck. They want to see you get tortured by having to withstand uneven opportunities.

You didn't read into the thread far enough before responding. Read post #31 above.

-Sean

 

[mantis99]

The main motivation for introducing 10 ball was to remove as much of the luck in 9 ball as possible. You can argue whether that was a reasonable thing to do and whether it was accomplished, but that was the goal and the reason behind the differences.

Not to get off topic, but I never understood why they didn't just make 9ball a call pocket game. I get that the break in 9ball can be tto easy, but just making 9ball a cll pocket game would remove most of the problems in 9ball, without having to go to a whole new game.

 

[sfleinen]

Not to get off topic, but I never understood why they didn't just make 9ball a call pocket game. I get that the break in 9ball can be tto easy, but just making 9ball a cll pocket game would remove most of the problems in 9ball, without having to go to a whole new game.

But another aspect of 10-ball that Bob didn't mention, was the impetus to address the diamond-shaped rack issues with 9-ball (e.g. wired balls; soft-breaking; BandAids to the 9-ball rack like racking high / on the 9, break-from-the-box, etc.). That was another goal of 10-ball -- to get rid of all that crap inherent in 9-ball.

http://poolepicenter.wordpress.com/a-bit-of-history/ten-ball-debut/

-Sean

 

[AtLarge]

Not to get off topic, but I never understood why they didn't just make 9ball a call pocket game. I get that the break in 9ball can be tto easy, but just making 9ball a cll pocket game would remove most of the problems in 9ball, without having to go to a whole new game.

In addition to the reasons Sean mentioned, another reason for not changing 9-Ball is simply that some people prefer Texas-Express-style 9-Ball to any version of a call-shot game. 9-Ball proponents voice a lot of reasons -- it's quicker, it's more exciting, it's more likely to appeal to the unsophisticated (in pool), it's better for TV, it allows all types of 2-way shots (which are argued to be so "creative," it gives the lesser player a better chance of winning, it draws more "dead-money" entrants to "pro" events, and, the one I love, "the cream always rises to the top anyway," so why change.

So ............... we have both the wide-open slop game of 9-Ball and the better)) game(s) of 10-Ball.