And what happens with the balls on the table is not "feedback" re: the way a cue hits?
Does a 'good' hit actually matter or is it all hype?
- Thread starter zpele
- Start date
And what happens with the balls on the table is not "feedback" re: the way a cue hits?
Dick,
Good to see you back!
Like you, I favored house cues. If they had a tip on them and didn't rattle a little inconspicuous work with some sandpaper and a BRAD tool at most was plenty to put me in business. Mostly I grabbed whatever was handy. Going in strange places with a cue with a hinge in it screamed hustler or pro back when I played nightly.
On to the general discussion, my sister gets around to estate sales and such being in the antique business. I told her to score me old cues she ran across for awhile until I realized it was too hard to educate someone that knew nothing about pool. One thing she grabbed that she knew was junk was one of the Budweiser cues complete with vinyl case.
I repaired the finish with sharpie, repaired the vinyl case with some black tape, cored the butt back as far as I could reach, put in a maple dowel and quality pin. (edit: put a good joint collar on it too.) Then I turned a shaft for the butt using the same things I would use putting together a quality shaft. The butt was playable but felt dead and dull. No comparison between it and a pool cue. People crowded around to see my new gambler's cue when I brought it to the local pub too. Shouldn't have put a Moori tip on it but they came running even before they saw the tip. The big knock is the dirt cheap butts are made out of poplar, basswood, or some other very soft wood. Nothing you can do to make them hit like a decent cue although it hit far better than the original cue did.
Harmonics travel very rapidly through end grain wood, for practical purposes instantly through the shaft. The harmonics will run back and forth through a cue many times before they fade away which is why even the bumper or lack of same matters. The wrap or lack of same can change the play of a cue a lot, of course the woods chosen. Also voids tend to matter on hinged cues. House cues have so much wood to wood contact that voids don't seem to matter.
After so many years playing with house cues I'm looking for a similar hit. Not too pingy, not too dead, somewhere in the middle. I may not play better with a cue I like but I certainly enjoy playing more.
Hu
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And they are one-piece with a conical taper .
I just got a hold of 3 old Dufferins.
Boy, their 20 oz'r are conversion delights.
My Adam Balabuska with a steel joint & an OB Classic Pro passed JB's scratch test quite well with an A+, while the stock one piece cues that came with my mid 1960ish Brunwick Sport King barely passed with a D-. (Both are full spice cues.)
I don't know what that means except that it must be related to the different densities of different woods & Mike Gullesey's point must be about sensitivity for feedback purposes or maybe more so along with the transmission of energy.
As to the hit aspect, I would go along with what was said about transmission of energy given the same stroke with same weight, balance, tips, etc.
Just my 2 cents from reading the thread.
I'll just add that Bob Meucci made a comment about an Adam 'must be a well made butt' when he he was doing his robot testing for cue ball squirt/deflection.
I think it is rather obvious that some can 'feel' things & some can't. To those that can't it makes no difference & to those that have 'feel' it does make a difference.
I guess that's a nickel's worth or not.
I don't know what that means except that it must be related to the different densities of different woods & Mike Gullesey's point must be about sensitivity for feedback purposes or maybe more so along with the transmission of energy.
As to the hit aspect, I would go along with what was said about transmission of energy given the same stroke with same weight, balance, tips, etc.
Just my 2 cents from reading the thread.
I'll just add that Bob Meucci made a comment about an Adam 'must be a well made butt' when he he was doing his robot testing for cue ball squirt/deflection.
I think it is rather obvious that some can 'feel' things & some can't. To those that can't it makes no difference & to those that have 'feel' it does make a difference.
I guess that's a nickel's worth or not.
makes no difference. I dropped my $99 Schmelke on a weird angle against a tile floor, and it spilt the butt on both sides from the bumper to the wrap. A little gorilla glue and she was ready for the state tourney. Didn't miss a beat. Did it sound different, who knows, who cares, I'm not listening to my cue, I'm too busy watching the balls drop in the pockets, cause that is what matters. Yes, I have other custom cues... but they won't pocket balls any better so why "nick" them up at league.
Everything else is just "stuff" for folks looking for excuses. I see it every week in league. Guy gets new cue, can't play a lick better. Guy losses first few games and switches cue, and he still loses, cause the cue can't fix the hitch in his stroke.
Meanwhile, the guy that had to come right from work scruffs up the tip of a house cue and plays lights out, cause his mechanics and patterns are perfect... funny how that works.
I been playing for a few years and have tried some cues that the shaft was so whippy that a wet piece of spaghetti was stiffer. Others were so stiff, I could have sworn I had a 2x6 with a tip on it. I wouldn't have given you 2 cents for either.
Hit in my view is all relative to the player. I used to play with house cues all the time (when they were wooden, not this fiber glass stuff now days) and had no problems. What you consider a good hit, I may hate, and the reverse could be true. If I am making balls, and the cue ball is going where I want it, it's a good hitting cue.
Hit in my view is all relative to the player. I used to play with house cues all the time (when they were wooden, not this fiber glass stuff now days) and had no problems. What you consider a good hit, I may hate, and the reverse could be true. If I am making balls, and the cue ball is going where I want it, it's a good hitting cue.
Makes no difference to you, maybe. So does this mean you can use ANY cue and pocket balls just the same? Run tables just the same?
"It is the Indian not the bow." Different strokes for different folks---and all of that?
I don't really know how or why people would want to buy cues without hitting with them first---unless they had found a cue maker who consistently makes similar good hitting cues---which is hard too find---and is subjective.
I don't really know how or why people would want to buy cues without hitting with them first---unless they had found a cue maker who consistently makes similar good hitting cues---which is hard too find---and is subjective.
"It is the Indian not the bow." Different strokes for different folks---and all of that?
I don't really know how or why people would want to buy cues without hitting with them first---unless they had found a cue maker who consistently makes similar good hitting cues---which is hard to find---and is subjective.
I don't really know how or why people would want to buy cues without hitting with them first---unless they had found a cue maker who consistently makes similar good hitting cues---which is hard to find---and is subjective.
Some players don't care what cue they use.......it doesn't make them a lesser player but it assuredly doesn't make them a better player.....while with others, knowing what works best certainly improves the consistency of their play......or it should for the average player.
The aforementioned invokes the question of feel, i.e., can a pool cue impart feel on a shot? Absolutely yes and the variations in feel can be significant, slight, and barely discernible and of course, none at all......which is the perfect stroke we all seek. To better appreciate this "concept", one has to examine the anatomy of a pool cue and the different design alternatives therein. Okay, here goes nothing........I apologize if this comes across as anything but well intended information for the general reader's consideration.........stop reading now unless you have an open mind on this topic and please hopefully indulge the verbose explanation.
Aside from the different types of wood that are available for the cue shafts and cue butt, woods can have significantly differing weights, densities, and spines. And the term old growth woods is a real thing, not just a coined phrase. These woods can vary enormously but the wood is more rigid and heavier thus also being a factor in the cue's balance. Now consider the different materials that can be used for making the cue. Should the joint be wood to wood or piloted brass, how about phenolic cue joints, or maybe piloted steel or steel collar over wood or perhaps ivory collar over steel or better yet, piloted ivory or flat faced ivory?
Should the thread be a long twist 5/16 x14 or 18 or say a 3/8 x10 or 12....should the pin be steel or brass, how about a uni-lock joint? I hope you don't subscribe to the notion that all these joints feel exactly the same when you stroke the cue ball with different speed strokes? Let's consider the issue of shafts and obviously sizes and weights absolutely affect the way a cue plays and feels. As an example, a 12.6mm shaft that weighs 3.3 ozs will feel very different from the same shaft weighing 4.3 ozs. How about a 13.1mm shaft weighing 3.5 ozs versus one weighing 4.3 ozs.
Now let's look at whether the cue shaft taper is short or a pro taper which tends to be around 12" or does the shaft have an extended pro taper length of say 15" and taper length affects the shaft. Rest assuredly, a 12.5mm shaft weighing 3.5 ozs with a standard taper would feel different than a 12.5mm shaft weighing 4.3 ozs with a 15" taper. What about ferrules? Some general things to consider are ferrule length, ferrule material or even ferruleless shafts.......but materials are important and ivory is definitelty unique........but how about what's at the end of the ferrule? When it comes to tips, is it a nickel shape or dime shape.....and will the hardness be firm, medium, soft or super-soft, and would the tip be layered or single, and of course, which brand as there are dozens to choose from and certainly cue tips can and do drastically vary from one brand to another.
I am not a cue-maker by any means but there are subtle issues like the cue's balance point and cue butt weight and very important is if there's any weight bolt and how heavy is it? You can always make a cue butt heavier if the cue turns out to be lighter than desired by inserting a heavier bolt but you don't want to core the cue butt out to reach the customer's target weight either. How the cue is made, its balance point, and the weight bolt are "also" factors in the cue's playability and feel but even more so when combined with some of the aforementioned variables.
So when you are able to dial in your cue, and you get it the way you want....doesn't matter if it's a $300 cue, or a $3000 cue, it will play better and feel becomes your subjective appreciation for your cue's consistent performance. And trust me when I say custom cues made to your exact specs always play better. Look, I don't want 13.2 mm shafts on the Tibbits, Hercek, or Prewitt cue I'm looking to buy right now. I do not want a 19 ounce cue either or a steel joint. So rather than settle for the original owner's cue specifications which are admittedly different from what I want, unless it was just some coincidence, I remain on the lookout. Meanwhile, I order custom cues built exactly to my specs. I ordered such a cue last July and just did it again this past summer all because I still haven't found a Tibbits, Hercek or Prewitt cue yet. These cues have been on Az but not with my cue specs so why buy a expensive cue if it's not exactly what you want?
So what's this all mean? Pool cues definitely vary in feel and for some players, it's inconsequential and so it doesn't matter in the slightest. In fact, some players scoff at the notion of feel and see themselves as "Vinny" from the movie, "The Color of Money". They're a natural and any house cue on the wall is as good as any cue they could buy.....but to others, it's entirely different and I'm one of those others. Maybe you are too but in any event, this is just my opinion based upon my experience with pool cues dating back to 1974 at which time I received my very first pool cue.
Matt B.
The aforementioned invokes the question of feel, i.e., can a pool cue impart feel on a shot? Absolutely yes and the variations in feel can be significant, slight, and barely discernible and of course, none at all......which is the perfect stroke we all seek. To better appreciate this "concept", one has to examine the anatomy of a pool cue and the different design alternatives therein. Okay, here goes nothing........I apologize if this comes across as anything but well intended information for the general reader's consideration.........stop reading now unless you have an open mind on this topic and please hopefully indulge the verbose explanation.
Aside from the different types of wood that are available for the cue shafts and cue butt, woods can have significantly differing weights, densities, and spines. And the term old growth woods is a real thing, not just a coined phrase. These woods can vary enormously but the wood is more rigid and heavier thus also being a factor in the cue's balance. Now consider the different materials that can be used for making the cue. Should the joint be wood to wood or piloted brass, how about phenolic cue joints, or maybe piloted steel or steel collar over wood or perhaps ivory collar over steel or better yet, piloted ivory or flat faced ivory?
Should the thread be a long twist 5/16 x14 or 18 or say a 3/8 x10 or 12....should the pin be steel or brass, how about a uni-lock joint? I hope you don't subscribe to the notion that all these joints feel exactly the same when you stroke the cue ball with different speed strokes? Let's consider the issue of shafts and obviously sizes and weights absolutely affect the way a cue plays and feels. As an example, a 12.6mm shaft that weighs 3.3 ozs will feel very different from the same shaft weighing 4.3 ozs. How about a 13.1mm shaft weighing 3.5 ozs versus one weighing 4.3 ozs.
Now let's look at whether the cue shaft taper is short or a pro taper which tends to be around 12" or does the shaft have an extended pro taper length of say 15" and taper length affects the shaft. Rest assuredly, a 12.5mm shaft weighing 3.5 ozs with a standard taper would feel different than a 12.5mm shaft weighing 4.3 ozs with a 15" taper. What about ferrules? Some general things to consider are ferrule length, ferrule material or even ferruleless shafts.......but materials are important and ivory is definitelty unique........but how about what's at the end of the ferrule? When it comes to tips, is it a nickel shape or dime shape.....and will the hardness be firm, medium, soft or super-soft, and would the tip be layered or single, and of course, which brand as there are dozens to choose from and certainly cue tips can and do drastically vary from one brand to another.
I am not a cue-maker by any means but there are subtle issues like the cue's balance point and cue butt weight and very important is if there's any weight bolt and how heavy is it? You can always make a cue butt heavier if the cue turns out to be lighter than desired by inserting a heavier bolt but you don't want to core the cue butt out to reach the customer's target weight either. How the cue is made, its balance point, and the weight bolt are "also" factors in the cue's playability and feel but even more so when combined with some of the aforementioned variables.
So when you are able to dial in your cue, and you get it the way you want....doesn't matter if it's a $300 cue, or a $3000 cue, it will play better and feel becomes your subjective appreciation for your cue's consistent performance. And trust me when I say custom cues made to your exact specs always play better. Look, I don't want 13.2 mm shafts on the Tibbits, Hercek, or Prewitt cue I'm looking to buy right now. I do not want a 19 ounce cue either or a steel joint. So rather than settle for the original owner's cue specifications which are admittedly different from what I want, unless it was just some coincidence, I remain on the lookout. Meanwhile, I order custom cues built exactly to my specs. I ordered such a cue last July and just did it again this past summer all because I still haven't found a Tibbits, Hercek or Prewitt cue yet. These cues have been on Az but not with my cue specs so why buy a expensive cue if it's not exactly what you want?
So what's this all mean? Pool cues definitely vary in feel and for some players, it's inconsequential and so it doesn't matter in the slightest. In fact, some players scoff at the notion of feel and see themselves as "Vinny" from the movie, "The Color of Money". They're a natural and any house cue on the wall is as good as any cue they could buy.....but to others, it's entirely different and I'm one of those others. Maybe you are too but in any event, this is just my opinion based upon my experience with pool cues dating back to 1974 at which time I received my very first pool cue.
Matt B.
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makes no difference
dinosaur pool mentality
dinosaur pool mentality
Not sure everyone would agree with this. The more powerful the stroke the less accurate the aim. If one were to agree with that statement. Then one would not agree all cues are the same. You do not get the same results with the same stroke with every cue. Take a draw shot for example. Some cues you may have to use a power stroke to acheive the same amount of draw with another cue using a normal stroke. Outside english can be different between cues. If your just talking about pocketing balls then I guess any straight cue can do that. Most players try to play position which will be the most noticeable difference between cues. Guess thats like saying all jump and break cues are the same.
If I am interpreting that correctly, I like it.
i play snooker sometimes, and the game is so difficult and you have to bear down on the simplest of shots, and the cue makes no difference at all, which is why you see the top pros of that sport playing with the same 30 dollar cue since their teens. but although I believe that snooker is harder to play and you need superior potting skills, you also barely use english with touch, its mostly draw or follow. in pool, you need to use an array of tricks, soft hard and medium speed shots with all kinds of crazy english, so the "hit" makes a difference in the confidence of the shooter, he needs to trust the cue to be able to "feel" the shot. whether you are shooting with a players sneaky or a two thousand dollar custom, you need to like the cue because of its feedback you feel in your hand and the ability to perform the shot you are executing. 50 dollar cue, 5 thousand dollar cue makes zero difference. the customs are mostly for their look and its personal sentiment to you. now, some custom makers are better than others, by design and built quality, the best custom cue I ever hit with, and ive tried several of his and they all felt "good'' to me was Scruggs, some guys swear by southwest, etc.... the best production cue I tried was schon, it felt like a "good" hit to me. long story short, if you can play, you can play with anything, but you still need to learn the cues hits, deflection adjustment, etc.........this is all still subjective, if you're like most, you'll end up trying 20 cues before you realize it makes no difference.
Yes the hit of a cue matters but the person holding the cue matters more.
This topic reminds me of a conversation I overheard once. A woman was telling a guy about a night club she had been to. The guy asked "do it jump"? She replied "it jump if you jump". Does a cue hit good? It hits good if you hit good.
For me, the hit of a cue is very simple. It depends on whether the object ball goes where I expect it to and the cue ball reacts the way I expect it to.
This topic reminds me of a conversation I overheard once. A woman was telling a guy about a night club she had been to. The guy asked "do it jump"? She replied "it jump if you jump". Does a cue hit good? It hits good if you hit good.
For me, the hit of a cue is very simple. It depends on whether the object ball goes where I expect it to and the cue ball reacts the way I expect it to.
The way I understand it, the "hit" of a cue is a subjective measure of the feedback it delivers to your hand after you strike the cue ball. Given that the cue ball squirt is primarily affected by the properties of the tip, ferrule and the first several inches of the shaft, there is a lot of extra wood, a joint and a wrap in between the part of the cue that really matters and your hand, so the way it feels in your hand isn't a direct measure of how it plays. However, if the feedback feels bad to an experienced player, there is a good chance that there is something wrong with the cue, possibly in the section that really does matter, so it's a good sign when a cue feels right.
Another point to consider is the psychological impact of playing with a cue that feels good to you. If the experience of hitting a ball well is enjoyable, you'll want to continue doing it. I think that someone else in this thread talked about measuring the resonant frequency of wood to find something that feels nice, and I believe that is the sort of thing that can make the difference between a cue that plays well and a cue that is fun to play with.
A cue with a good "hit" may also cause less fatigue, just like hitting the sweet spot of a tennis racket, golf club, or baseball bat. If you've ever played with a cue that feels like it trying to shake loose from your grip every time you take a shot, you'll know what I mean. A lot of fiberglass cues had this problem, and I suspect that a lot of other materials would as well. Good cue wood usually gives just enough to soften the feedback, but not lose it entirely.
Another point to consider is the psychological impact of playing with a cue that feels good to you. If the experience of hitting a ball well is enjoyable, you'll want to continue doing it. I think that someone else in this thread talked about measuring the resonant frequency of wood to find something that feels nice, and I believe that is the sort of thing that can make the difference between a cue that plays well and a cue that is fun to play with.
A cue with a good "hit" may also cause less fatigue, just like hitting the sweet spot of a tennis racket, golf club, or baseball bat. If you've ever played with a cue that feels like it trying to shake loose from your grip every time you take a shot, you'll know what I mean. A lot of fiberglass cues had this problem, and I suspect that a lot of other materials would as well. Good cue wood usually gives just enough to soften the feedback, but not lose it entirely.
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ENGLISH.....thanks for your comment.....I was more expecting to be besmirched by some Azers I've cultivated as my nemesis.
It seems like these same assholes invariably turn up and take a dump on any post I write or a new thread.........Thanks again.
Matt B.
It seems like these same assholes invariably turn up and take a dump on any post I write or a new thread.........Thanks again.
Matt B.