U.S. Chances in the Mosconi Cup

I was actually joking. :groucho:

The fact is it's not "country vs country," so we're not exactly playing on an even playing field. To put the USA against England, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Greece, etc is a bit lopsided. It wasn't the first 10+ years because the other countries were still behind the USA (experience/skill wise), except for a couple of players.

The downturn in pool's popularity in the USA (due to no TV coverage) has really widened the gap because it's gaining popularity in European countries. The USA trying to compete against 5 countries is almost like Michael Jordan trying to match up against 5 NBA players......it's physically and mathematically doubtful. This analogy is certainly not literal, just pointing out that the "European Team" is actually an ALL STAR TEAM from several different countries.

I believe the USA team will pull off a HUGE UPSET this year because "the momentum" is behind them to make this event competitive. This gives them a substantial advantage (momentum wise), and all that's left is contacting those big, big, pockets.;)

My prediction is the USA team winning by 2 on the last day.

'The Game is the Teacher'

lol, this makes no sense. The Jordan analogy in particular is borderline insane.

How many active players do you think there are in Europe? Because I'd bet it's a lot less than there are in the US.

In the UK, the number of people who own their own cue and play American pool more than, say, once a fortnight, isn't even in the thousands. We probably have less than 500 "serious" players here. And yet I'd make the UK favourites over a US team in this format.

Also, you say pool's downturn in the US is due to no TV coverage, well how much TV coverage do you think there is in Europe (where it's apparently gaining popularity)?
 
For those that need a geography lesson because they think its unfair that the Mosconi Cup is the USA vs several countries......... :sorry:
Chuck
 

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For those that need a geography lesson because they think its unfair that the Mosconi Cup is the USA vs several countries......... :sorry:
Chuck

To be fair, the total population of Europe more than twice that of the US. The thing is, that doesn't matter when discussing a sport like pool, as it's about how many active players you have and how mainstream the sport is/has been in each country / set of countries.

Nobody acts like the US should roll over the Netherlands playing football (soccer), even though the US has something like 300 million more people to choose from.
 
The stage is set for the USA team to win this year, I'd make them a slight favorite

It doesn't matter so much about judging a country's potential for raising champion pool players, look at the Phillipines. The import thing is how respected the game/sport is and in the USA (right now) there's not even a Pro Tour, so the game (at the Pro level) is somewhat dormant, although this would change with a weekly TV Show or Pool Movie.

The Jordan analogy was what it was "an analogy," and if you read {closer} I put "almost" just to keep people from taking it too literally - of course I've been on line enough to know that there are many that don't really "get" the function of analogies - this is a shame because it's one of the fastest ways to pass knowledge from one mind to another.

I didn't say the MC was unfair, my point specifically stated that "Team Europe" has an all star team from several different countries (many feel they are not playing their "A" team this year, especially regarding Ralph S.). Each country will tend to have at least a couple of exceptional athletes, usually in the sports or games that are popular. Obviously the issue in this country is most of the money available for endorsement has went to only a couple of players.

The downturn in the United States is due to no TV coverage. ESPN has over 100 Million viewers and in the mid 90s pool was drawing over a million viewers weekly. In the year 2000 this changed and ESPN was just used by Matt Braun with 'The Challenge of Champions' - NO OTHER promoter had the incentive, knowledge, or financial ability to broadcast Pool Shows EXCEPT for Matt Braun, and the WPBA.

The Mosconi Cup is broadcast on SKY SPORTS which is the "European ESPN" and Barry Hearn puts out several top notch shows a year. I'm told that the shows also play in Asia and goes out to many, many, many people in that part of the world. Does this contribute to pool being much more popular in Europe now? I'd have to say "YES"!

Anyone that thinks going to London and competing is a "piece of cake" is crazy. Some of their fans are very aggressive (they are soccer fans too) and where alcohol is served it can get volatile. I'm in the bar business and have witnessed nearly 100 fights in my career, some bloodier than others (the worse was seeing a guy get his throat cut in Albuquerque).

They keep it pretty safe, but didn't bring in security until the second day (when I was captain in 2012), I'd advise them to bring them on from the beginning this year with even bigger crowds.

There were times during the 2012 event that the players were getting very uneasy about what was going on. I told one of the players "at least they're not shooting balls off the table like they did in some of the places I used to play" - that made them smile and loosen up enough to play, however, they never did play up to their true potential.

I verily wish the Mosconi Cup could be on American TV, however, that's probably not going to happen (ESPN won't pay for this type broadcast currently). Anyone that's done any heavy duty marketing know how powerful TV is for popularity, the problem is it takes frequency (if your game/sport isn't on weekly it won't build viewer momentum.

The stage is set for the USA team to win this year, I'd make them a slight favorite (2 games) at this point. Anyone that has the nerve to bet on the USA team will have a chance to take off a nice score (especially with 7/4 or whatever the line levels at).






lol, this makes no sense. The Jordan analogy in particular is borderline insane.

How many active players do you think there are in Europe? Because I'd bet it's a lot less than there are in the US.

In the UK, the number of people who own their own cue and play American pool more than, say, once a fortnight, isn't even in the thousands. We probably have less than 500 "serious" players here. And yet I'd make the UK favourites over a US team in this format.

Also, you say pool's downturn in the US is due to no TV coverage, well how much TV coverage do you think there is in Europe (where it's apparently gaining popularity)?
 
Let us pick from another 415,000,000 people and see if that makes any difference.

Europe's 733,000,000 (733 million) people make up 12% of the world's population (as of 2012)

United States has 317,996,000 which is less than half of Europe's population.

Source Wikipedia - Population

The REAL LESSON IS THIS - Let us pick players from another 415,000,000 people and see if that makes any difference.

'The Game is the Teacher' ;)



For those that need a geography lesson because they think its unfair that the Mosconi Cup is the USA vs several countries......... :sorry:
Chuck
 
It doesn't matter so much about judging a country's potential for raising champion pool players, look at the Phillipines. The import thing is how respected the game/sport is and in the USA (right now) there's not even a Pro Tour, so the game (at the Pro level) is somewhat dormant, although this would change with a weekly TV Show or Pool Movie.

The US has a far, far stronger pool infrastructure than, for example, the UK. Particularly in the American pool format. It's hard to describe how much of a niche game American pool is in the UK.

The Phillipines is a terrible example when trying to prove your point, as they are almost the exact opposite of somewhere like the UK; American pool is huge over there.

The Jordan analogy was what it was "an analogy,[/B]" and if you read {closer} I put "almost" just to keep people from taking it too literally - of course I've been on line enough to know that there are many that don't really "get" the function of analogies - this is a shame because it's one of the fastest ways to pass knowledge from one mind to another.

I know what an analogy is, it's just that your analogy was ridiculous. Everyone here can see that.
 
I'm upset that there is no Oliver this year. I love Oliver, dag nab it. :wub:

The Iceman is starting to grow on me, too. :grin-loving:

Click the picture.

 
it was meant to be ludicrous, but I'll settle for "ridiculous"

A ridiculous analogy? Okay, I'll go for that, it was meant to be ludicrous, but I'll settle for "ridiculous". ;)
ridiculous.jpg
When someone starts taking analogies seriously (especially when they were said in a joking manner) it's probably not a pleasant subject or they have a "set" belief system.

Yes, the UK isn't the best example although they have replaced a lot of 6/12 snooker tables with smaller tables (pool and 8 eightball). Snooker is a great game, but too difficult for "the masses" to play.....pool on the other hand is easier to learn and play at a level that can be enjoyed by friends and family.

Approximately 000000.1% of the American population has ever even heard of the Mosconi Cup, I'm sure that number is higher in UK and especially Europe overall. I've never even seen a press release directed at USA media about the Mosconi Cup - I would think they send something to inform people, just haven't seen it personally.

The fact is Europe has a very respectful pocket billiard tour and the game is respected on a level that hasn't existed in the USA for over 14 years. They have the Euro Tour and the main thing that impresses me is how they dress, it's essential to "dress for $uccess).

I remember going to a bar table tournament in the early 80s in Clinton Iowa and the tournament was FULL of champions like Keith McCready, Jimmy Rempe, Louie Roberts, Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, Steve Mizerak, Jimmy Reid, Dallas West, Ray Martin, Buddy Hall.......on and on and on. They all had one significant thing in common, THEY WERE ALL DRESSED TO IMPRESS.....this is not being done currently and it's a shame because everyone in advertising/marketing knows how important it is to get a GREAT first impression.


The US has a far, far stronger pool infrastructure than, for example, the UK. Particularly in the American pool format. It's hard to describe how much of a niche game American pool is in the UK.

The Phillipines is a terrible example when trying to prove your point, as they are almost the exact opposite of somewhere like the UK; American pool is huge over there.



I know what an analogy is, it's just that your analogy was ridiculous. Everyone here can see that.
 
Europe's 733,000,000 (733 million) people make up 12% of the world's population (as of 2012)

United States has 317,996,000 which is less than half of Europe's population.

Source Wikipedia - Population

The REAL LESSON IS THIS - Let us pick players from another 415,000,000 people and see if that makes any difference.

'The Game is the Teacher' ;)

The APA reckons that 250,000 people play weekly in their pool leagues...

In the Netherlands, there are about 3000

There is no way there are quarter of a million pool players in Europe playing in league competition. You are comparing oranges and apples.
 
How many league players are trying to make the USA Mosconi Cup Team?

How many league players do you think have made the USA Mosconi Cup team?

How many USA Mosconi Cup players participate in leagues? (I have, but wouldn't make a habit out of it - they are great for social interaction)

I don't see much connection between league players and champion level players. For many years China and the Philippines had very few leagues, but they had several top notch players. This may have changed in the past few years, although I still haven't heard any big number of league players in Asia, Europe or the Phillipines.

You may be seeing "apples and oranges," but it's just the 3 Ball and 5 Ball in disguise.:wink:


The APA reckons that 250,000 people play weekly in their pool leagues...

In the Netherlands, there are about 3000

There is no way there are quarter of a million pool players in Europe playing in league competition. You are comparing oranges and apples.
 
How many league players do you think have made the USA Mosconi Cup team?

How many USA Mosconi Cup players participate in leagues? (I have, but wouldn't make a habit out of it - they are great for social interaction)

I don't see much connection between league players and champion level players.

This logic makes your previous argument (about population sizes putting the US at a disadvantage) invalid.

If there is no connection between league players and champion level players, then there is surely even less of a connection between the non-playing general population and champion players.
 
Out of 400,000,000 people there's probably going to be a "talent pool"

This falls under the Law of Probability.

Out of 400,000,000 people there's probably going to be a "talent pool" for games, sports and other activities......yes, even pocket billiards.
th



This logic makes your previous argument (about population sizes putting the US at a disadvantage) invalid.

If there is no connection between league players and champion level players, then there is surely even less of a connection between the non-playing general population and champion players.
 
This falls under the Law of Probability.

Out of 400,000,000 people there's probably going to be a "talent pool" for games, sports and other activities......yes, even pocket billiards.
th

And yet if such a small percentage of those people play pool (at all) it makes population size irrelevant. That you even chose to bring it up smacks of desperation, in my opinion.
 
India has over 1 billion people, by the rationale being given, they should have more pool champions than Europe or the USA..

All I am saying is that it is more common for people to play pool in the s States, hence more chance of producing a world beater.
 
Population, popularity, percentages and probability impact pool too

Population, popularity, percentages and probability are relevant.

If the USA has 10 champion level players I'd have to bet there'd be 15 if the population doubled. Back in the early 90s the USA had closer to 25 champions.....of course that was because of the popularity generated by 'The Hustler', Joe Camel and Steve Mizerak.




And yet if such a small percentage of those people play pool (at all) it makes population size irrelevant. That you even chose to bring it up smacks of desperation, in my opinion.
 
Population, popularity, percentages and probability are relevant.

If the USA has 10 champion level players I'd have to bet there'd be 15 if the population doubled.

But only if the interest in the sport is there across that population. The US has, but some accounts, 250,000 active players. Europe doesn't have close to that so the fact its overall population is higher is irrelevant. Comparing overall populations and concluding that this makes the cup unfair makes no sense when the overall interest in the game varies so much between the two continents.

It doesn't matter if you have 1 billion people if none of them play pool. See the example someone gave earlier about India.
 
put the population relative to champion pool players on a graph

There is no way of knowing for sure, however, if you were to put the population increases relative to number of champion pool players on a graph the growth should coincide.



exponential-growth.gif


But only if the interest in the sport is there across that population. The US has, but some accounts, 250,000 active players. Europe doesn't have close to that so the fact its overall population is higher is irrelevant. Comparing overall populations and concluding that this makes the cup unfair makes no sense when the overall interest in the game varies so much between the two continents.

It doesn't matter if you have 1 billion people if none of them play pool. See the example someone gave earlier about India.
 
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