CIT and Cue Ball Deflection - Gearing English

[tashworth19191]

One thing that strikes me is trying to overcome Cut Initiated Throw (CIT) using a little outside English is that if I am at ghost ball spot, the cue ball deflection on longer cuts causes me to miss getting the cue ball into the ghost ball position. So is it really worth it to use gearing english on longer shots?

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

One thing that strikes me is trying to overcome Cut Initiated Throw (CIT) using a little outside English is that if I am at ghost ball spot, the cue ball deflection on longer cuts causes me to miss getting the cue ball into the ghost ball position. So is it really worth it to use gearing english on longer shots?

The longer the shot, the more the cue ball deflects over distance. So a shot that works for 3ft won't work for 6ft. This is where having an understanding of what CJ Wiley means of 'pinning' (I think that's the term he used) the cue ball is helpful.

 

[ENGLISH!]

My quick answer is yes as long you can do it accurately. It's about the speed of the shot & getting the correct combination of CB squirt with the swerve that the spin puts into play. It's about the correct ratio with the correct line for the shot.

If you can not use it accurately then don't. But I would suggest that you keep using it during 'practice' until you can use it accurately.

I just realised that you were only talking about the amount to offset the CIT. IMO that is difficult. That is why I generally use more & allow for & use the SIT. I think it is much easier to be on one side or the other than trying to get the exact required amount.

Anyway that's my quick 2 cents.

Best Wishes & Shoot Well,
Rick

PS Another option is to use TOI which will add cut to offset the CIT.

 

[peteypooldude]

One thing that strikes me is trying to overcome Cut Initiated Throw (CIT) using a little outside English is that if I am at ghost ball spot, the cue ball deflection on longer cuts causes me to miss getting the cue ball into the ghost ball position. So is it really worth it to use gearing english on longer shots?

I actually hit them a little better with a touch of inside. If the ball have a little distance the inside will cause you to over cut the ball if you put a good stroke on it because of the deflection. More than enough to allow for the CIT. It only takes about a half tip.

 

[tashworth19191]

The longer the shot, the more the cue ball deflects over distance. So a shot that works for 3ft won't work for 6ft. This is where having an understanding of what CJ Wiley means of 'pinning' (I think that's the term he used) the cue ball is helpful.

Yes, that is what I am talking about. The cue ball deflects over a longer distance when you try to use gearing english. So trying to overcome CIT, you induce another problem.

Also, one thing bugs me on Dr. Dave tapes is when he uses the back hand to get right and left english. Looks like the cue is now pointed at the wrong angle to the original line of sight to the ghost ball. I generally keep cue parrallel to line of sight to ghost ball and move both bridge and back hand left or right the same amount. That is I keep stick parrallel to original path.

 

[randyg]

Yes, that is what I am talking about. The cue ball deflects over a longer distance when you try to use gearing english. So trying to overcome CIT, you induce another problem.

Also, one thing bugs me on Dr. Dave tapes is when he uses the back hand to get right and left english. Looks like the cue is now pointed at the wrong angle to the original line of sight to the ghost ball. I generally keep cue parrallel to line of sight to ghost ball and move both bridge and back hand left or right the same amount. That is I keep stick parrallel to original path.

Back hand English shouldn't bother you. It is a great tool to put in our tool box.

More than one way to apply English.

randyg

 

[ENGLISH!]

I actually hit them a little better with a touch of inside. If the ball have a little distance the inside will cause you to over cut the ball if you put a good stroke on it. More than enough to allow for the CIT. It only takes about a half tip.

Yes that's the TOI at work. I use both depending on what I want the cue ball to do after. In fact I shoot every shot differently depending on where I want to go with the cue ball.

 

[Straightpool_99]

One thing that strikes me is trying to overcome Cut Initiated Throw (CIT) using a little outside English is that if I am at ghost ball spot, the cue ball deflection on longer cuts causes me to miss getting the cue ball into the ghost ball position. So is it really worth it to use gearing english on longer shots?

Well, no I don't think so. I'm not one of those nutcase center ball fundamentalists, but if you are to use side spin you should use it because it is required to play position. I certainly use side spin on long shots, but not to cinch the ball. If all you need is to make the ball and position is automatic, I don't think you should use it at all.

I don't really use side spin to make the ball, unless the cue ball is very close to the object ball or if I can't see quite enough of it to cut it. In those cases I will "throw" the ball into the pocket rather than cutting the ball thinly from a short distance or jumping over the edge of an interfering ball. That is more a matter of preference than hard rules carved in stone in these cases.

 

[CJ Wiley]

using your "back hand" it has a tendency to draw your eyes away from "center"

I use what's called "backhand english" to create angles in banking. On regular shots you are much better off keeping the cue parallel as you suggest. The reason is when you move the tip using your "back hand" it has a tendency to draw your eyes away from the original "shot line" (the angle of the cue changes and your eyes will notice).....this will cause you to over-cut your spin shots in most cases (using outside english).

When using the TOI Technique you align slightly to the INSIDE of the cue ball, then when you use your backhand to pivot to center it is obvious you've created an angle. I have an entire video on this process called 'TIP Banking Secrets' (Touch of Inside Pivot)

Yes, that is what I am talking about. The cue ball deflects over a longer distance when you try to use gearing english. So trying to overcome CIT, you induce another problem.

Also, one thing bugs me on Dr. Dave tapes is when he uses the back hand to get right and left english. Looks like the cue is now pointed at the wrong angle to the original line of sight to the ghost ball. I generally keep cue parrallel to line of sight to ghost ball and move both bridge and back hand left or right the same amount. That is I keep stick parrallel to original path.

 

[pdcue]

One thing that strikes me is trying to overcome Cut Initiated Throw (CIT) using a little outside English is that if I am at ghost ball spot, the cue ball deflection on longer cuts causes me to miss getting the cue ball into the ghost ball position. So is it really worth it to use gearing english on longer shots?

You're pushing your cart with the horse. Don't try to 'overcome' CIT, rather, allow for
it. The OB contact point varies depending on CB position, spin, etc.

Just hit the ball on the spot that makes it go in the pocket... EXACTLY like
every shot on a pool table.

Dale

 

[tashworth19191]

You're pushing your cart with the horse. Don't try to 'overcome' CIT, rather, allow for
it. The OB contact point varies depending on CB position, spin, etc.

Just hit the ball on the spot that makes it go in the pocket... EXACTLY like
every shot on a pool table.

Dale

Dale, that is the way I have always done it. I have been practicing some of the things on the Dr-Dave VEPPS DVD and HAPS DVD. They seem to suggest using what they call gearing english to compensate for CIT...

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#outside

Is where he has info on what I am talking about.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Yes, that is what I am talking about. The cue ball deflects over a longer distance when you try to use gearing english. So trying to overcome CIT, you induce another problem.

Also, one thing bugs me on Dr. Dave tapes is when he uses the back hand to get right and left english. Looks like the cue is now pointed at the wrong angle to the original line of sight to the ghost ball. I generally keep cue parrallel to line of sight to ghost ball and move both bridge and back hand left or right the same amount. That is I keep stick parrallel to original path.

Maybe you missed the point I was trying to make. But what works for 3 feet of separation may not work for 6 feet of separation. What I'm not saying is that it's impossible to compensate for, it just requires another level of thinking you aren't doing right now. You don't use the same stroke for that 6 foot shot like you do for the 3 foot shot, so why are you using the same tip placement? You're getting more spin than desired because you think that because the angle is the same, it must be shot the same. The longer the shot, the less english you need to apply. That doesn't mean you're getting less spin, it's just the distance means you're now hitting harder. When you hit less english, firmer over distance you get the same spin on the cue ball as you do when you use more english with a soft stroke at a short distance.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Yes, that is what I am talking about. The cue ball deflects over a longer distance when you try to use gearing english. So trying to overcome CIT, you induce another problem.

Also, one thing bugs me on Dr. Dave tapes is when he uses the back hand to get right and left english. Looks like the cue is now pointed at the wrong angle to the original line of sight to the ghost ball. I generally keep cue parrallel to line of sight to ghost ball and move both bridge and back hand left or right the same amount. That is I keep stick parrallel to original path.

You do it the way I mostly did it for more than 4 decades. I think there are advantages to doing it this way over BHE but it's not for the science minded as it is more in the realm of 'feel'.

To be honest I 'think' it's a bit of both 'parallel' in mind but with a bit of angle to the outside as well. I also have often used a combo of front & back hand in opposite directions.

It's a very interesting subject but not for some as I think it a very 'feel' subconscious environment.

Best,
Rick

 

[CJ Wiley]

aiming is essential.....it turns something negative into a very positive aspect

That's correct, instead of thinking about "overcoming CIT," it's better to see the advantages it gives you. Understanding zones and how to create more margin of error by altering your angle of aiming is essential.....it turns something negative into a very positive aspect of most professional's game whether using TOI or TOO consistently.

You're pushing your cart with the horse. Don't try to 'overcome' CIT, rather, allow for
it. The OB contact point varies depending on CB position, spin, etc.

Just hit the ball on the spot that makes it go in the pocket... EXACTLY like
every shot on a pool table.

Dale

 

[tashworth19191]

That's correct, instead of thinking about "overcoming CIT," it's better to see the advantages it gives you. Understanding zones and how to create more margin of error by altering your angle of aiming is essential.....it turns something negative into a very positive aspect of most professional's game whether using TOI or TOO consistently.

What is TOO and TOI?

 

[crow]

What is TOO and TOI?

Touch of outside and touch of inside I'm guessing

 

[tashworth19191]

I tried using gearing english per Dr. Dave's HAP DVD and could not make a ball. HA HA. Time to go back to playing with feel, not science...

I know the science probably works well, but I find myself thinking too much. I have a favorite saying "Think Long, Think Wrong" which applies to my game, since i like to shoot fast. Machine Gun Lou Battera was my favorite player to watch years ago.

 

[dr_dave]

One thing that strikes me is trying to overcome Cut Initiated Throw (CIT) using a little outside English is that if I am at ghost ball spot, the cue ball deflection on longer cuts causes me to miss getting the cue ball into the ghost ball position. So is it really worth it to use gearing english on longer shots?

If you want to use "gearing" outside english to cancel CIT, you also need to be able to compensate for squirt and swerve. This can be done using BHE, FHE, and combinations of the two, where appropriate.

On longer shots (especially with bigger cuts), it is best to avoid english if possible so you don't need to deal with all of these variables. On certain shots (epecially slower shots close to a half-ball hit and/or close to stun), you will need to adjust the aim to compensate for CIT; but this is a lot easier than trying to judge the amount of english and how much squirt and swerve result from the stroke speed, shot distance, and conditions.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Also, one thing bugs me on Dr. Dave tapes is when he uses the back hand to get right and left english. Looks like the cue is now pointed at the wrong angle to the original line of sight to the ghost ball. I generally keep cue parrallel to line of sight to ghost ball and move both bridge and back hand left or right the same amount. That is I keep stick parrallel to original path.

True parallel english works only for limited shots where the cue elevation, shot speed, shot distance and amount of spin balance just right so the squirt, swerve, and throw effects all cancel. This is very difficult to judge over a wide range of shot types.

Parallel english also works for shorter shots and sloppy (non "tight") pockets, where the pocket can be cheated quite a bit, and accuracy isn't as important.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Dale, that is the way I have always done it. I have been practicing some of the things on the Dr-Dave VEPPS DVD and HAPS DVD. They seem to suggest using what they call gearing english to compensate for CIT...

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#outside

Is where he has info on what I am talking about.

On HAPS, we show two techniques for compensating for CIT. One is to change the line of aim (and ghost-ball position) to compensate for the amount of throw expected for the given shot (based on an understanding or intuition of important throw effects). The other is use "gearing outside english" to eliminate CIT. Both approaches are useful in different situations.

The "gearing outside english" approach will be useful only if you are also good at compensating for squirt and swerve. The BHE/FHE/BHE-FHE-combo stuff on HAPS offers one way to do this.

Regards,
Dave