C.J. Wiley VS Keith McCready - What's The Line?

[lfigueroa]

As well as I can determine, Keith has been pretty much retired since the IPT collapsed in Sept. 2006 -- so about 8 years.

Keith was quite active, especially in regional open events, for about 5 years before that. According to the AzB results archive, he won 9 events in those years and had many other high finishes. His 3rd place finish in the US Open 9-Ball was in 2003.

Keith will be 58 in a few months (if the AzB database is correct). That's an age where physical issues often begin, or continue, to take their toll. Reyes and Parica are not as good as they once were. But it is certainly still possible to play top-level pool at Keith's age and older. JAM seems kind of eager to see how Keith will do without some of the habits of his earlier years. Wouldn't it be neat if that could translate into even better pool than he was playing 10 years ago. Perhaps this reality-show gig will induce some seismic activity that we haven't seen in quite a while and that will persist well beyond that gig.

Gracias, AL. I forgot about the IPT. And you're right, Keith was active at many regional events back then.

I drew him once at a 1pocket tournament in Olathe, KS around then. It was like the first round and Jose, whom I believe Keith was traveling with at the time, was playing on the adjoining table. Anyways, it's a race to three and I'm up 2-0 and Jose is laughing his ass off on the next table because there I am, a guy who had just learned how to play 1pocket, and I have the great Keither down 2-0, and I'm on the hill. And Keith finally looks over at Jose and says, "Well he's making every f**king bank shot he shoots at."

Keith then applied the handcuffs and Lou loses 3-2.

Lou Figueroa

 

[ribdoner]

I remember that, Bobby, it's brutal when the "sweaters" are packin.

We had our share of facing pistols on the road didn't we? Your book brings back so many memories of the way it was, especially the ones about the "bootheel" of southern Missouri. When I was around there they were still talking about "Lonnie," and what happened in that gruesome tragedy.

I wonder what every happened to Danny Cook and "Gordy"? Talk about some "characters". You probably remember playing at the "Bloody Bucket"....not sure if that was in your book, but I was around a lot of the stakes horses, hustlers and action men you mentioned.

Play Well, Bud, ttys

Gordy and Danny are/were friends of mine.

GORDY passed a few years ago after battling diabetes for a long time. Was a one punch knock out artist as a youngin back in CHI. He was DANNY'S father-in-law in addition to being his backer.

DANNY took a non-voluntary sabatical from cue sports in the late 90's and i don't think his game recovered. Last i heard he was back in Misery.

 

[BeiberLvr]

As well as I can determine, Keith has been pretty much retired since the IPT collapsed in Sept. 2006 -- so about 8 years.

Keith was quite active, especially in regional open events, for about 5 years before that. According to the AzB results archive, he won 9 events in those years and had many other high finishes. His 3rd place finish in the US Open 9-Ball was in 2003.

Keith will be 58 in a few months (if the AzB database is correct). That's an age where physical issues often begin, or continue, to take their toll. Reyes and Parica are not as good as they once were. But it is certainly still possible to play top-level pool at Keith's age and older. JAM seems kind of eager to see how Keith will do without some of the habits of his earlier years. Wouldn't it be neat if that could translate into even better pool than he was playing 10 years ago. Perhaps this reality-show gig will induce some seismic activity that we haven't seen in quite a while and that will persist well beyond that gig.

Of course it is, but again, Reyes and Parica never took an extended leave from the game.

You can be a champion at 20, retire, and come back at 30 and still find your best game. It's just tougher to retire at 50, come back at 60, and expect to be anywhere near as good as you once were.

And no pro player, 50 or older, is as good as they were when they were in their 30s.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Of course it is, but again, Reyes and Parica never took an extended leave from the game.

You can be a champion at 20, retire, and come back at 30 and still find your best game. It's just tougher to retire at 50, come back at 60, and expect to be anywhere near as good as you once were.

And no pro player, 50 or older, is as good as they were when they were in their 30s.

Jon,

You make statements so definitively.

Age can certainly be an issue, believe me I know, but that is usually because with age comes past injuries & some probable disease of some type or weight gain.

However if one has not had any injuries nor disease & are completely healthy other than the # of years that they have been here then it is certainly possible for one to regain their speed IF they ever really lost it & especially if the eyes are as good, which is somewhat rare but it does happen.

And, 'as good as' when they were young is a relative thing. They may be better at defense or better at banking. In other words, they may be different, but that can be just 'as good as', but different. One usually learns with age, not everyone... but most.

I'm not saying it's likely but I'm saying that it is possible & I know you probably disagree. I'm Just saying.

 

[watchez]

I started traveling around that area when I was 17 and ran into a lot of "underworld" characters that Bobby Cotton mentioned in his book. His stories about that area are great, mine were from the eyes of a 17 year old, so different in content.

The story I mentioned was about "Lonnie" - Sikeston Jimmy was around that area and also another "Jimmy" from Popular Bluff. Danny Cook was from Hayti Mo. I believe. My roots are in Green City and Kirksville Mo. Columbia was also a place that drew a lot of action from many parts of Missouri to the Columbia Billiard Center on 9th St.

.

That would be Jimmy Vernon - you can still see him around Popular Bluff.

I've been to that bar in Hayti, right off the highway. It used to be have a 3 x 6 bar table and they would play 6 ball and break from the middle of the table. Stopped in there with Lil Ricky on our way to Memphis. They had put a legitimate 3 1/2 x 7 bar table in but you could still see the break marks from the center of the table so they still played that same game. Ricky told me to get up there first and get them playing. So I got a couple of games for a drink, then $5, then $10. Then Ricky took over, soon we were playing for over $200 a game, side betting with anyone willing in the bar. Ricky noticed they closed this back door while he was playing. We busted the guy out of about $2100 and he said follow me to the next town and his brothers bar. We said ok so we could have a safe exit from the bar. Following the guy down the highway, staying close behind, he pulls off the highway towards the next town. Ricky keeps following him and then at the last possible second whips back onto the highway and away we went.

Last time Danny Cook was in St Louis.......ok I won't tell that story.

Ricky was always upset that some kid named CJ beat him when they were both younger.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Jon,

You make statements so definitively.

Age can certainly be an issue, believe me I know, but that is usually because with age comes past injuries & some probable disease of some type or weight gain.

However if one has not had any injuries nor disease & are completely healthy other than the # of years that they have been here then it is certainly possible for one to regain their speed IF they ever really lost it & especially if the eyes are as good, which is somewhat rare but it does happen.

And, 'as good as' when they were young is a relative thing. They may be better at defense or better at banking. In other words, they may be different, but that can be just 'as good as', but different. One usually learns with age, not everyone but most.

I'm not saying it's likely but I'm saying that it is possible & I know you probably disagree. I'm Just saying.

Of course I disagree, but please don't take it personally

I make definitive statements when I can back them up. I always make an effort to add [imo] when it's just that, an opinion.

I agree that people learn more as they age, but pool is more about applied knowledge and execution. Things, that no matter how hard one fights it, just gets tougher with age.

There's a reason phrases like, "in his prime" and "past his prime" exist. You would be hard pressed to name a single player in their 50s that would be a favorite over their 30 year old self (if such a match up were possible).

Just look at Efren winning the DCC 1pocket again this year. An impressive feat, but the Efren "in his prime" could have given EVERY single player weight in that event. Let's also not forget how he lost 11-2 against Shane right after in a TAR match up. Something that I guarantee you would not have happened to Efren "in his prime."

Keith was an amazing player, and believe me when I say, I have no doubts he can still channel that talent at his age. But getting old effects every player, and the great Keith McCready is no exception. Especially when he's been out of the competitive pool scene for as long as he has.

I do understand and respect certain people's (especially Jam's) bias towards Keith, and they have every right to disagree with me.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Of course I disagree, but please don't take it personally

I make definitive statements when I can back them up. I always make an effort to add [imo] when it's just that, an opinion.

I agree that people learn more as they age, but pool is more about applied knowledge and execution. Things, that no matter how hard one fights it, just gets tougher with age.

There's a reason phrases like, "in his prime" and "past his prime" exist. You would be hard pressed to name a single player in their 50s that would be a favorite over their 30 year old self (if such a match up were possible).

Just look at Efren winning the DCC 1pocket again this year. An impressive feat, but the Efren "in his prime" could have given EVERY single player weight in that event. Let's also not forget how he lost 11-2 against Shane right after in a TAR match up. Something that I guarantee you would not have happened to Efren "in his prime."

Keith was an amazing player, and believe me when I say, I have no doubts he can still channel that talent at his age. But getting old effects every player, and the great Keith McCready is no exception. Especially when he's been out of the competitive pool scene for as long as he has.

I do understand and respect certain people's (especially Jam's) bias towards Keith, and they have every right to disagree with me.

Again, I hear you.

But it can be like that Toby Keith song. 'I'm not as good as I once was... but I'm as good ONCE... as I ever was.'

Certain talents don't die...they just hibernate or most times just walk off into the sunset.

Also, what happened to Shane on that 10 foot table with Earl? Hey, it was that one time but it happened & why did Shane leave what should have been easy money from CJ?

I'm not putting Shane down. Like CJ said he's last on CJ's list of who to match up with.

Sure mature 'youth' has the edge, but great players are great players even when they're 'old' & pool is more like chess with big marbles than it is a football game or a 26 mile marathon. Hell CJ might be able to beat Shane in a short foot race or maybe CJ would prefer that 1st. to 100 thing.

Just rambling Jon, The Saints are winning 24 to 0 & I'm bored.

 

[West Point 1987]

Irving Crane was just south of 70 when he won his last major tournament. Efren is over 60 and is a threat to win any tournament he enters...ANY tournament. I've been watching Earl play for decades, and I sincerely believe that when he's in gear today, he's playing his best pool ever. Seriously. He had explosive fire power, but his cue ball control now is WAY better than it was back then. He used to stroke the ball drawing three rails to get where just one would do...now he plays much smarter. Plus he ducks more effectively, whereas 20 years ago he fired at everything.

Age is definitely a factor, but I think that at that level, these guys can definitely still give most good players the 7 whenever they need to, and can still compete at the top level if they put in some time to get in shape.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Irving Crane was just south of 70 when he won his last major tournament. Efren is over 60 and is a threat to win any tournament he enters...ANY tournament. I've been watching Earl play for decades, and I sincerely believe that when he's in gear today, he's playing his best pool ever. Seriously. He had explosive fire power, but his cue ball control now is WAY better than it was back then. He used to stroke the ball drawing three rails to get where just one would do...now he plays much smarter. Plus he ducks more effectively, whereas 20 years ago he fired at everything.

Age is definitely a factor, but I think that at that level, these guys can definitely still give most good players the 7 whenever they need to, and can still compete at the top level if they put in some time to get in shape.

I hear you too.

 

[CJ Wiley]

(no exaggerations, this guy knocked out some monsters in his time and he wasn't big

I traveled around with Gordy some when I was 18 in St. Louis, Memphis and the areas we mentioned earlier. He knew how to make money, and was almost too fearless.

You're right, he was brutally tough, as you say "a knock out artist" (no exaggerations, this guy knocked out some monsters in his time and he wasn't all that big)

Danny and I hung around back in my teenage years, you're right, his wife was Gordy's daughter......she was extremely attractive, I hope Danny was able to hang on to her.

Gordy and Danny are/were friends of mine.

GORDY passed a few years ago after battling diabetes for a long time. Was a one punch knock out artist as a youngin back in CHI. He was DANNY'S father-in-law in addition to being his backer.

DANNY took a non-voluntary sabatical from cue sports in the late 90's and i don't think his game recovered. Last i heard he was back in Misery.

 

[JAM]

...I do understand and respect certain people's (especially Jam's) bias towards Keith, and they have every right to disagree with me.

Especially when you have never seen Keith McCready play pool in your entire life up front and close, and you don't even know the man, other than what you write on this forum. You have no idea how he played in the '70s, '80s, '90, 2000s, or even now, do you? You're just a knocker, nothing more and nothing less, knocking people anonymously behind the protection of your computer monitor. I'd also venture to guess that you don't know as much about pool as you think you do.

Maybe your talent lies in the cartoon threads where you can attempt to garner some attention from others by jokes. I find your posts ignorant when you write about pool. And that's my opinion, and you have every right to disagree with me, too.

 

[MahnaMahna]

Especially when you have never seen Keith McCready play pool in your entire life up front and close, and you don't even know the man, other than what you write on this forum. You have no idea how he played in the '70s, '80s, '90, 2000s, or even now, do you? You're just a knocker, nothing more and nothing less, knocking people anonymously behind the protection of your computer monitor. I'd also venture to guess that you don't know as much about pool as you think you do.

Maybe your talent lies in the cartoon threads where you can attempt to garner some attention from others by jokes. I find your posts ignorant when you write about pool. And that's my opinion, and you have every right to disagree with me, too.

Here JAM, eat this.

 

[JAM]

Here JAM, eat this.

While multiple-identitied and banned members posting on AzBilliards continue to knock, knock, knock, I'm going to do something pool-worthy and get paid. Oh, I will have the last laugh when the dust settles and enjoy a great, big, fat Pay Day.

Unlike others, I got the nuts with Keith McCready by my side when it comes to making something happen. :smile:

 

[JAM]

JAM - i just don't see why, as a pool fan, I should want to pony up to help this venture of the reality series...

I understand your thoughts and respect your choice. I'm quoting your post again, though, to mention this.

For every single donation to this American Road Player reality series, the donor will receive products based on the amount of the donation. These products, many of them, are donations from the sponsors.

Every donor, no matter what the amount, will get a free tip picker device on a keychain by PoolDawg. As the donation amount go up, the free products given to the donors go up, and they include Hustlin' USA Clothing Co. baseball caps, T-shirts, towels. There's also posters and bumber stickers.

There's also free passes to the Derby City Classic, if you're going. BTW, Keith told me that he spoke to Greg Sullivan yesterday. Greg is 100 percent behind this project.

I guess what I wanted to say and why I quoted you again is that for each donation, the donor will receive something back. If the American Road Player reality series does not reach its goal of $40,000, all donors will receive their donations back in full.

My point is this is quite different than the IPT, Bonus Ball, or other pool-related mishaps. This is not a tour or a tournament, either, that ropes in players and promises them the Moon. This is just a fellow pool enthusiast's attempt to make something positive happen. If there's enough interest, then there will be a green light to move forward. If there is not enough interest, well, at least they tried.

Vince Lombardi's famous quote rings true here. There are three kinds of people in this world: those who make things happen, those who watch what happened, and those who wonder what happened. The American Road Player folks are trying to make things happen. I'm pulling for them to succeed.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'm pretty sure I'd climbed a small mountain to play pool when I was 7-12.

WIth age usually comes different levels of maturity which directly reflects on a player's style and shot selection. I still believe the older age demographic is the one to pursue.....tell the kids they can't play because it's an "adult game," this will get them climbing the walls to get in. I'm pretty sure I'd climbed a small mountain to play pool when I was 7-12.

Irving Crane was just south of 70 when he won his last major tournament. Efren is over 60 and is a threat to win any tournament he enters...ANY tournament. I've been watching Earl play for decades, and I sincerely believe that when he's in gear today, he's playing his best pool ever. Seriously. He had explosive fire power, but his cue ball control now is WAY better than it was back then. He used to stroke the ball drawing three rails to get where just one would do...now he plays much smarter. Plus he ducks more effectively, whereas 20 years ago he fired at everything.

Age is definitely a factor, but I think that at that level, these guys can definitely still give most good players the 7 whenever they need to, and can still compete at the top level if they put in some time to get in shape.

 

[Gerry Williams]

Fact is Keith is very entertaining to watch. Met him in Vegas several years ago as he was in action with a buddy of mine. 9 ball on a bar box for 100 per rack - it was a lot of fun and the crowd was plenty interested.

I grew up watching TCOM and Grady

Wish you both the best in all future ventures Jam.

Gerry

Especially when you have never seen Keith McCready play pool in your entire life up front and close, and you don't even know the man, other than what you write on this forum. You have no idea how he played in the '70s, '80s, '90, 2000s, or even now, do you? You're just a knocker, nothing more and nothing less, knocking people anonymously behind the protection of your computer monitor. I'd also venture to guess that you don't know as much about pool as you think you do.

Maybe your talent lies in the cartoon threads where you can attempt to garner some attention from others by jokes. I find your posts ignorant when you write about pool. And that's my opinion, and you have every right to disagree with me, too.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

With all the talk of hustling, gambling, road players, reality shows, etc., what is the "line" if there is a match of CJ playing Keith in a long race of 2-foul, old-school 9-ball?

Both of them are still capable of hitting the balls rather smartly, given enough notice and practice.

I'd be interested in hearing who people think may take home the cheese if this could be set up and played out.

Aloha.

You just had to put You Know Who's name in a thread title didn't you?

You know these never end well.

ONB

 

[BeiberLvr]

Especially when you have never seen Keith McCready play pool in your entire life up front and close, and you don't even know the man, other than what you write on this forum. You have no idea how he played in the '70s, '80s, '90, 2000s, or even now, do you? You're just a knocker, nothing more and nothing less, knocking people anonymously behind the protection of your computer monitor. I'd also venture to guess that you don't know as much about pool as you think you do.

Maybe your talent lies in the cartoon threads where you can attempt to garner some attention from others by jokes. I find your posts ignorant when you write about pool. And that's my opinion, and you have every right to disagree with me, too.

I have no idea what "cartoon threads" you're talking about, but thanks for trying to make it personal.

Not going to bite though...

Have a wonderful day!

 

[BeiberLvr]

Irving Crane was just south of 70 when he won his last major tournament. Efren is over 60 and is a threat to win any tournament he enters...ANY tournament. I've been watching Earl play for decades, and I sincerely believe that when he's in gear today, he's playing his best pool ever. Seriously. He had explosive fire power, but his cue ball control now is WAY better than it was back then. He used to stroke the ball drawing three rails to get where just one would do...now he plays much smarter. Plus he ducks more effectively, whereas 20 years ago he fired at everything.

Age is definitely a factor, but I think that at that level, these guys can definitely still give most good players the 7 whenever they need to, and can still compete at the top level if they put in some time to get in shape.

I can't comment on Crane, but again, Earl and Efren have both continued to play without taking major time off.

Also, not even sure how you can Earl ducks more effectively now. I've watched plenty of current and old matches of Earl. His safeties are average these days. Just watch his matches at the WCOP where he was Shane's partner this year. Most of his safety attempts were anything but effective.

 

[JAM]

I have no idea what "cartoon threads" you're talking about, but thanks for trying to make it personal.

Not going to bite though...

Have a wonderful day!

Good. I'd like to know why you find the topic of Keith McCready so damn interesting that you feel the need to share your thoughts on someone you know nothing about.

Of course, I already know the answer to that. Keep on keeping on what you do best on this forum.