greatest pool room city in the history of the usa? nyc? Chi?

Let me just say the "Bensinger" organization in Chicago in the heyday of pool and billiards was NOT surpassed by any other city for billiard rooms!

The rooms from the 20's to the late 50's were patronized by some of the elite society of Chicago. Everyday at the Bensinger locations in downtown Chicago, you would see the tables busy with professional businessmen for lunch and billiards. The GREATEST players, both 3C and Pool played more events that were held at the rooms in Chicago, than any other rooms in the country at that time.

Sadly, when the operation moved to the North side to the, Clark-Diversey location, the room did not have the same opulence and cliental as the downtown site. As the 60's ended the room declined even more so. Even though, this room had it's share of GREAT players of ALL cue games!

I traveled country for many years during the late 60's, thru the late 70's to ALL the TOP rooms in the country! I didn't find but a couple that had the same amenities that Bensingers had, even in the later years of it's existence.

The action during that time was somewhat on a different level and on the "QT" for various reasons. The owner at that time was, Artie Bodendorfer, one of the GREATEST one pocket players EVER! 'Bugs Rucker was a regular in action after hours many, many nights.

I came out of Bensingers along with Artie and Freddy "The Beard!" If road players could win there, they could win anywhere!
 
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Thanks for the story. According to this link http://www.chicagobilliardmuseum.org/1870-1880.html it was located at 153 Dearborn. Using google maps I went to street level and it looks like the building is still there, now a McDonalds. You can see all the windows the article references.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/1...2!3m1!1s0x880e2cbaa36a2f37:0x6c385cca0a647181

The address grid was renumbered in 1910 or thereabouts, so this location isn't the same as it would have been in 1873.
If I recall correctly Foleys building may be gone altogether. I will check on it.

Edit to add. The great fire happened 1871 and was the primary reason for Foleys new room .
 
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Perhaps the floor is carpeted except not under the tables. That way they could replace the carpet without moving the tables. But that's just a wild guess, I can't really tell from the picture.

[Note -- this refers to the Kansas City room, not the Chicago room.]

That seems to be part of the reason, carpeting, and having a reinforced surface beneath the table that wouldn't sag as easily as a typical wooden floor.( This was done also in rooms without carpet)
 

I traveled the country for many years during the late 60's, thru the late 70's to ALL the TOP rooms in the country! I didn't find but a couple that had the same amenities that Bensingers had, even in the later years of it's existence. <--You must have missed a few hundred ! :rolleyes:

The owner at that time was, Artie Bodendorfer, one of the GREATEST one pocket players EVER! 'Bugs Rucker was a regular in action after hours many, many nights....I came out of Bensingers along with Artie and Freddy "The Beard!" If road players could win there, they could win anywhere!

As usual, when a Chicagoan puts on his "bragging hat", the superlatives become almost unbearable (and highly doubtful)...Trust me folks, there were PLENTY of road player's who could have WON in Bensinger's ! ..The town "shot itself in the foot'', by gaining a reputation for 'questionable' tactics !
Gaff tables, the jar, the rats, and the mob clientel, were just a few !..Only a few uninformed guy's from the Philipine's, (and one guy from Pittsburgh ;)) even WANTED to stay there longer than a few days !

Even Grady, (at the advice of his high $$$ 'stakehorse's) was smart enough to 'hit and run' !...As Bill Stroud, and several other top players, have stated MANY times,.."Why would any sane person want to
tip-toe through the drunks and the druggies, for the priviledge of playing in such adverse conditions ?"

Let me just say, I think Chicago is a great city, For sightseeing, architecture, good food and lots to do !....I visit there often...Just NOT for pool !.. I am certain there will be a few people, who may disagree with my observations !.. But what are the odds they will ALSO be "Bensinger Veteran's" ? :eek:


SJD
 
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That Club was Trump

This one as described perfectly by George Fels of BD fame. And they had antique Brunswick tables, 3C tables, Snooker table, and even Space Invaders !!! Many a nights this teenager slept under one of the tables, or left high school "early" to start his shift there working the counter. It was the most beautiful room in the city, and no druggies, no scumbags, just pool hustlers and lots of them. It was nice enough that George Fels brought his wife and son to play. And safe enough that at 15 I took the Diversey bus home after midnight many, many times after my shift.



"That Club was Trump" by George Fels (March 1998)

THE FACT THAT you had to climb a steep flight of stairs to get there was only the first thing to like about Chicago's North Shore Billiard Club. Pool without stairs is like a hot dog without mustard, and besides, the place was permanently insulated against the ennui of watching recreational players hack away. Every oscillating Richard in the room was good - very good - at something.

Which was, of course, exactly the room that part-owner Fred Bentivegna had in mind: the one place that legit road players would head for immediately when they hit town, just as they had to Bensinger's decades before. Virtually all the top black players in town were comfortable in that white room and neighborhood, a rarity in Chicago or anywhere else: the great John "Cannonball" Chapman even worked there, and Bugs Rucker and his personal Sancho Panza, the late Kenny "Romburg" Remus, were in the place incessantly. So was the personable high-roller called Watusi Slim, whose praying-mantis build allowed him to reach clear across a pool table flat-footed to snatch up a cube of chalk on the opposite rail while hardly bending.

So while Freddy may have envisioned himself center-stage in that high-powered pool arena, he was not even the best white player there. That mantel belonged to Artie Bodendorfer, whose demoralizing, suffocating-type one-pocket game was reminiscent of cuddling up to an anaconda. And with all that blood in the water, you just knew what would come next. Flyboy Spears, Cole Dickson, Jack Cooney, Bill Incardona, and others all made North Shore their first stop, just as Freddy had prophesied, and four-figure scores became the norm.

The ongoing pinochle games were not necessarily sociable either, and yet with all that high-stakes action, and the room's club status which entitled it to remain open all night, North Shore saw absolutely no hassles. That was partly because hasslers were subject to discussing their behavior with Freddy's lower-profile partners, Phil Guagliardo and Bobby Wilkinson; in the club's four or so years, no one ever chose that option nor even remotely considered it. Beyond that, North Sore policed itself extremely well, barring moochers or gamblers who would not pay their debts. The equipment was stellar and the club was always spotless; its logo, an ultra-classy pair of lions in top hats and formal dress, was commissioned and designed by peers of mine in the communications industry. It may have been conceived and built as a shrine to one-on-one gambling, but the North Shore Billiard club was one class act.

I had my own plane on which to enjoy North Shore. While I do like to play pool for stakes within reason, I had neither the time, cash, nor talent for the club's top echelon of players. My male competition was my one and only pool buddy, Jack Gunne, when I could divert his attention from pinochle, which was seldom. When his world began to blow up in his face, I remember the agony of trying to keep him interested in our pool or billiards game; even a mishap as slight as scoring into the wrong half of a pocket, or off the wrong side of a ball, would bring all his frustration gushing out, and the game (and often his cue) had but a few minutes left to live. One score I was especially proud of was the $15 I won at table tennis from desk-man Mort Marzano; while Mort is an arm-wrestling champion the size of a NFL lineman (or two), everybody swore I made four times as much noise as he did with my un-Baryshnikov-like clomping around. But mostly what I liked to do there was stop in on my way home from work and hit balls for twenty or thirty minutes.

Most guys stop at a bar for a drink; my watering-hole of choice at least posed zero threat to my liver. Since that rationale played spectacularly poor at home, I took an "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" stance and introduced wife and son, then about 8, to North Shore. She liked Freddy anyway, and while she could never endorse that level of gambling, she was impressed by how everybody did their best to watch their language around her. Still, I would whisk them away from the libertine vices of North Shore's main floor and take them up yet another flight of stairs, where the two of them could play 25 points of straight pool and I had a match I could sweat in utter bliss.

My son was blessed with hand-eye coordination far above average, and I had little trouble teaching him to pocket a few balls with an open-thumb bridge. Dale Fels, on the other hand (I have never had much use for the expression "my wife"; it implies ownership, and no one owns anyone) was cursed, by pool standards anyway, with an ample bosom, and claimed that hindered her stroke, a problem I was at a total loss to solve. But she was a good natural athlete too, and could sink a few occasional shots. Thus theirs was pretty much an even-up competition, except that all three of us were pulling for him to win. He was fiercely competitive even then, overjoyed to the point of giggles when ahead, sulking when behind, and every now and then all three of us could thrill to his sinking a tough out-shot to win a close one. And we would leave North Shore gorged on the joyous elixir of fun, competition and love.

North Shore Billiard Club closed only because the partners got tired of working that hard. Bobby Wilkinson more or less disappeared, Phil Guagliardo and Freddy withdrew to other endeavors, and Mort Marzano oversees the attendants who park their cars. Jack Gunne is gone.

That son (I have two) is grown and living in another part of the country, and Dale is gone too, well over a year now. I've seen Hoppe play; I saw Mosconi many times; I've seen Bugs Rucker vs. Efren Reyes. And I'd trade every magical minute of all that in a blink, to watch 25 points' worth of Dale Fels vs. Adam Fels, one more time. There's some small comfort in being smart enough - and lucky enough - to know what you have before you lose it. It isn't much. But it's something.
 
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the OP asked the best city, not place. but its obvious two of the largest cities in the country both Chicago and NYC are going to be hard to beat. as far as the best place of all time? different question and very hard to answer if you've never experienced it. tales become bigger and better with some of the old rooms kinda like fish stories.
 
... Many a nights this teenager slept under one of the tables, or left high school "early" to start his shift there working the counter. It was the most beautiful room in the city, and no druggies, no scumbags, just pool hustlers and lots of them. It was nice enough that George Fels brought his wife and son to play. And safe enough that at 15 I took the Diversey bus home after midnight many, many times after my shift.

RJ, I enjoyed the very interesting article by Geo. Fels, Thanks !... I do need some clarification though...I assume you were talking about working at North Shore, weren't you ?...Most of my colorful accounts of Bensinger's, were taken from Freddies own descriptions of the place ! (rats and all)..I believe you, yourself have made statements like.."Except for the pizza, as far as I'm concerned, they can sink the whole stinking city in Lake Michigan"! (am I mistaken ?)

In any event, the main thrust of my response, was aimed at Mr. "You Know Who" who made these astounding observations !
Mr."You know Who" said:
I traveled the country for many years during the late 60's, thru the late 70's to ALL the TOP rooms in the country! I didn't find but a couple that had the same amenities that Bensingers had, even in the later years of it's existence. <--
--Hmm, only 10 yrs. ?..You must have missed at least a few hundred !

The owner at that time was, Artie Bodendorfer, one of the GREATEST one pocket players EVER! 'Bugs Rucker was a regular in action after hours many, many nights....I came out of Bensingers along with Artie and Freddy "The Beard!" If road players could win there, they could win anywhere!

...To which I responded ;
SJDinPHX said:
Trust me folks, there were PLENTY of road player's who could have WON in Bensinger's ! ..The town "shot itself in the foot'', by gaining a reputation for 'questionable' tactics...Gaff tables, the jar, the rats, and the mob clientel, were just a few of many !..Only a few uninformed guy's from the Philipine's, (and one guy from Pittsburgh :o ) ever WANTED to stay there longer than a few days !

Even Grady, (and he would play anywhere) at the advice of his high $$$ 'stakehorse's, was smart enough to 'hit and run !...As Bill Stroud, and several other top players, have stated MANY times,.."Why would any sane person want to
tip-toe through the drunks and the druggies, for the priviledge of playing in such adverse conditions ?"

Let me just say, I think Chicago is a great city, For sightseeing, architecture, good food and lots to do !....I visit there often...Just NOT for pool !.. I am certain there will be a few people, who may disagree with my observations !.. But what are the odds they will ALSO be "Bensinger Veteran's" ?

SJD

PS....Where did I confuse you ? :confused: Would me knowing your age be helpful ? (I'm guessing 35...and I am envious) ;)
 
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RJ, I enjoyed the very interesting article by Geo. Fels, Thanks !... I do need some clarification though...I assume you were talking about working at North Shore, weren't you ?...Most of my colorful accounts of Bensinger's, were taken from Freddies own descriptions of the place ! (rats and all)..I believe you, yourself have made statements like.."Except for the pizza, as far as I'm concerned, they can sink the whole stinking city in Lake Michigan"! (am I mistaken ?)

In any event, the main thrust of my response, was aimed at Mr. "You Know Who" who made these astounding observations !


...To which I responded ;


PS....Where did I confuse you ? :confused: Would me knowing your age be helpful ? (I'm guessing 35...and I am envious) ;)

Yeah, I worked the counters for a few years. I'm 52 now. And yes, Mr. Smith was a regular then, he wanted to kick my arse one day but Mort the counter man saved me... .I wonder if Billy remembers that one? Kind of a funny story ;)

Bensingers was worse than a dump, and Freddy did describe it as accurately as anyone possibly could. North Shore was the complete opposite, clean as a whistle and two floors to play on (2nd and 3rd) with stellar equipment. Heck, Earl even was there for a short while as was Efren.... But Bugs was a regular when he was not winning tons of money on the South side ;)

I live in the burbs now, and not a big fan of Chicago with the crime, the corruption nor the liberal politics that helped bankrupt the city. But, most of my cousins still live a few blocks from where they were born in the city.....but they don't know any better either ;)
 
I think the question referred to best city. Can't deny New York and Chicago, but the Baltimore area has been pretty good for at least the last half century. Gentlemens' Cue, Texas Cue Club in the 70s, along with Bill & Billies (various locations), Johnnie C's (where Mike Sigel called home) and Big Daddy's. If you traveled a bit south to Arlington, Virginia, you found Jack and Jills in the 70s, owned by none other than Bill "Weenie Beenie" Staton. More recently, the Champion Billiards rooms dominated, though most have closed. Anyway, you could give a nod to the Baltimore/Washington area.
 
and all the big fancy room's in New York City, were populated, for the most part, by 'no gamble' nit's, who wouldn't play anyone without having the mortal nuts.

.
I guess everyone at these rooms were all "No Gamble Nits"
A friend of mine Toby Sweet found plenty of action in NYC.
Ames
McGirrs
Seven-Eleven
Julians
 
I thought the question was best pool city in History rather than in memory. St. Louis may not be the greatest in history but deserves decent honors.

*Possibly the first but certainly one of the first public rooms established in mid 1700's
*3 Cushion popularized by St. Louis resident Wayman C. McCreery (1851-1901) some believe he invented the game.
* First 3 Cushion Championship held in St. Louis 1878
*1848 Brunswick opens sales office in St. Louis - one of the first 3 such offices (Chicago was first). Why St. Louis? Hmmm
*AE Schmidt established in 1850 - St. Louis
* Muellers Pool Table Co. established 1886

Anecdotal: In the mid 70's I was talking to an old room owner about the demise of the game. He told me when he started in the Billiard business there was over 300 rooms in St. Louis. This would have been pre WWll. That's a lot of action for a small town even though it was approx. the 4th or 5th largest in population.

Although not a huge room, one of the most famous.
Grand and Olive.jpg
 
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I thought the question was best pool city in History rather than in memory. St. Louis may not be the greatest in history but deserves decent honors.

*Possibly the first but certainly one of the first public rooms established in mid 1700's
*3 Cushion popularized by St. Louis resident Wayman C. McCreery (1851-1901) some believe he invented the game.
* First 3 Cushion Championship held in St. Louis 1878
*1848 Brunswick opens sales office in St. Louis - one of the first 3 such offices (Chicago was first). Why St. Louis? Hmmm
*AE Schmidt established in 1850 - St. Louis
* Muellers Pool Table Co. established 1886

Anecdotal: In the mid 70's I was talking to an old room owner about the demise of the game. He told me when he started in the Billiard business there was over 300 rooms in St. Louis. This would have been pre WWll. That's a lot of action for a small town even though it was approx. the 4th or 5th largest in population.




Although not a huge room, one of the most famous.
View attachment 369298
The picture above is how Grand and Olive looked around 1963-1966, when I went there on occasion. By then, it was a tired old room. It was upstairs and I think Garaveli's was below or near below. I doubt than any of us are old enough to remember its heyday. I have never been to the rooms mentioned in Chicago or California, however, coming from St. Louis, leaving in 1977, this room was not much to mention for any reason during my time frame. As for A E Schmidt....it was a great place, made good tables and also had nice antiques. I would be interested to hear olther St Louisians take on this.
 
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I guess everyone at these rooms were all "No Gamble Nits". A friend of mine Toby Sweet, found plenty of
action in NYC.

Ames
McGirrs
Seven-Eleven
Julians

You did not notice, I qualified my "nit" remark, by saying 'MOST' fit that description !...I was merely paraphrasing Freddy the Beard's, very accurate description of the 'action' (or rather the lack of it) in the entire Northeast !..If your friend Toby, found "Plenty of action" in NYC, he either gave up the 'nuts' a lot, or was a MAJOR exception, rather than the rule !..As I said, there were some great player's who came out of the Northeast, but almost ALL of them soon got smart, and relocated !

It is/was a common consensus, among ALL road players, that there was more 'good' action in Hot Springs, Ark. (pop. 50,000).. than there was in the largest city in the country. (NYC)...Don't even include the bigger cities, like Miami, Mobile, Houston, LA, etc....They eclipsed the extremely scarce action in the Northeast...As the Beard often said, "$10 was a big game in NYC, if you could find one !".. He avoided the Northeast like the plague. :rolleyes:

The pool room 'hustler's' in the big Northeastern cities, were almost all of the same mindset..Their biggest fear was, that if they lost over $20, their peers would ridicule them, and call them 'sucker's' ! (that could be why they still play so much 'funsies' 14.1 there..LOL) ...From all I've ever heard, or seen..That has NOT changed over the years, in fact if anything, it has probably gotten worse..:eek: Sorry if that offends you ! :sorry:

SJD
 
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You did not notice, I qualified my "nit" remark, by saying 'MOST' fit that description !...I was merely paraphrasing Freddy the Beard's, very accurate description of the 'action' (or rather the lack of it) in the entire Northeast !..If your friend Toby, found "Plenty of action" in NYC, he either gave up the 'nuts' a lot, or was a MAJOR exception, rather than the rule !..As I said, there were some great player's who came out of the Northeast, but almost ALL of them soon got smart, and relocated !

It is/was a common consensus, among ALL road players, that there was more 'good' action in Hot Springs, Ark. (pop. 50,000).. than there was in the largest city in the country. (NYC)...Don't even include the bigger cities, like Miami, Mobile, Houston, LA, etc....They eclipsed the extremely scarce action in the Northeast...As the Beard often said, "$10 was a big game in NYC, if you could find one !".. He avoided the Northeast like the plague. :rolleyes:

The pool room 'hustler's' in the big Northeastern cities, were almost all of the same mindset..Their biggest fear was, that if they lost over $20, their peers would ridicule them, and call them 'sucker's' ! (that could be why they still play so much 'funsies' 14.1 there..LOL) ...From all I've ever heard, or seen..That has NOT changed over the years, in fact if anything, it has probably gotten worse..:eek: Sorry if that offends you ! :sorry:

SJD
Spent some time in the Big Apple when I was too young to shave.

It was a great experience for me...the 7-11 was my favorite.
Saw Johnny Ervilino for the first time....playing 3-cushion.
...I was watching from the mezzanine at Ames'.

But you're right about the action...normal was $3 to $5 nine-ball.
It was said on the road that you could go to NYC and play straight
pool for $5 and have a bunch of players run 200 on you.

Blackie told me that when a NY player would go on the road, he would
change his license plates at the first opportunity...
....NY plates meant you were not good action...mucho savvy, mucho
talent, but not mucho gamble.
 
The first time I traveled East was in 1970, around the NYC area the cheapest I ever played a game of 3C was for $100.00!

Ended up playing for $2,000.00 a game 50 points at McGirs with the best player around at the time, 'Gene Levy.' I got stuck the first day, came back the next day and busted the joint! They called 'Boston Shorty' to play me, at that time, he gave me 3 on 25 for the 2K, we broke even. The same backer that staked Gene, staked Shorty. They quit after the second game.

Myself, I did well on the East coast as far as making money with 3C, I was young and even younger looking! None of the so called 'older' 3C players figured I could play at such an early age!
 
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