Cue Tips, Non Layered Vs Layered

Where I play, 90% of the people don't know how to play pool. The ONLY thing they know about tips is what somebody told them, not because they could play well enough to tell the difference. I see people with gloves, high-dollar cues, matching cases, little things to hold their cue on the table, special racks, and everything else...yet they can't run three balls. Not knocking them...they are spending their own money and supporting the game, but maybe they should try a lesson or two first from ANYBODY.

I'd be willing to teach some young kid or anybody if they were willing to learn, but I'm not going to spend my time or gas and table money to try to teach somebody that is not committed to getting better.

There was a group of young teenagers (boys and girls) playing on the table next to me Sunday and I had to jump their asses for clowning around and being a general nuisance. They were sort of sword fighting with the cues and then they got the bridge and started using it as a cue and slamming the ball back and forth between it and another cue from one end of the table to the other.

Finally, I just jumped their asses and told them that is how the equipment gets all FVCKED UP and they quit. I have NO patience when people start abusing the tables and equipment...I used to work in a pool hall and had to fix the stuff.

I hear you! lots of weird stuff happening in a pool hall. But the 90% I referred to is out of the players I consider pool players and not bangers...
The worst thing i know is people who throw cues, abuse the equipment and think it`s macho to fire all shots at maximum speed to prove how strong they are.
I have a pretty short fuse, when balls go flying and people behave like kids. I have NO problem telling people like that off!
 
Thanks, Easy. That makes sense to me.
Tip maintenance for me (I use an UltraSkin medium) is simply a few back and forth twists with the Willard, until the tip color comes back, and that's it. I do it about every other trip to the pool room. :)

A single layered tip isn't full of glue. That could be one reason why layered tips glaze more?

KMRUNOUT
 
A wet cloth will delaminat a layered tip.
MMike

MikeM,
That may be true of some Layered Tips but if you throw an UltraSkin in a glass of water it will float to the top for days on end. Some layered tips I have tested will sink to the bottom in a day or so.

A lot depends on the treatment of the leather and adhesive used.
 
The price of layered tips is too much. I played moori's for years, when they changed them I went to everests and then finally kumui's. I've played snipers as well. None of them played as well as the Dawg dud I have on my stick now, for a tenth of the price. Except for the Moori's none of them were consistent tip to tip, even the "great" Kamui. I had one soft brown Kamui play for 12 months brilliantly, the next one I had put on played so poorly I thought it was a counterfeit, had I not known the installer and knew the tip was legit I would have swore it was a fake. Fourty dollars to rip a tip off after three weeks, no f'ing way! The three dawg duds I got at once all play very much the same albeit on different shafts.


P.S. As far as glazing goes, that's most every tip. Get a gator grip type tool and you'll never worry about that again.
 
Glazing is simply the burnishing of the top of the tip usually from an inconsistent chalking routine... Even our softs will glaze after a month of shooting until you misscue with them... Yes I can be that lazy..... Good chalk and good chalking habits will slow the process down...

On layered pigskin you have a very tight grained leather it's automatically going to be more prone to glazing just because of the material..

Some treatments produce added glazing as well.... We used an analine on our Mediums in the beginning that caused them to glaze quickly so it was discontinued in favor of a different formula.....
 
The original medium Moori was the holy grail as far as I am concerned... After Moori went to high production it ceased to exist... So I went back to single layers after 20+ tries at finding the next grail in a layered tip....

With everything I have learned along the way unless it's pigskin, consistency and not performance is what you get from a layered tip...

I will give the ultraskins the benefit of the doubt for now because I have not tested them...

As of yet I have not found a layered tip that doesn't change in hardness and COR values in a matter of 4-6 weeks..

This means that at some point it doesn't matter which layered tip you buy they all are ending up playing like a hard tip with no elasticity over time..... Unless you change them often the tip you buy you won't play with long.. Which is exactly what most pros do.. A month and it's time to retip....

Chris
One a month seems allot.
I always went thru one every ten weeks.
 
I've still been using the same Tiger Sniper for the past year.

In my opinion, layered vs non layered, it's all in your head. I played with Elkmasters for years, because they were cheap enough for me to replace often. Tiger and Kamui, not so much. After leaving them on my cue and realizing that the tip didn't need maintenance, I put it out of my mind. When I miscued, it was my stroke (aiming too far off center), not because of the tip or chalk.
 
Layered. I also used original Moori's until my supply ran dry. Tried other layered tips to no avail not finding one I liked. Switched back to non layered until I was turned onto G2 Hards and haven't looked back since. IMO they are actually better than the original Moori's, just an amazing tip.
 
This discussion is pretty old by now, but I hit on it with a web search just to see what others had opined. For over 40 years, I played with whatever came installed on the shaft, and didn't think much of it. Probably replaced them myself with something like Elk Masters, etc. Probably 15-20? years ago (it's all a blur), when I got my first 'high tech' shafts (314), I started seeing ads and was exposed to layered tips. For almost 10 years, the the Tiger 'Everest' medium was my holy grail, and I was happy to get a dozen for $100. But the price just kept going up, and so I tried several other more reasonably priced layered tips, like Talisman, Wizard, Stingray, etc. At the same time, I was realizing that I actually liked harder tips, so moved from M to MH and then exclusivley Hard tips. I am no more likely to miscue because of the hardness of my tip, as my miscues are always a problem with my stroke delivery and not the tip. I also like that if I'm in a pinch, and I need to get a tiny bit of air to ensure clearing a blocking ball, I can just jack up with my playing cue and deliver a more controlled hop and still make shot and shape.

My latest favorite tips are from some OLD WB tips given to me by a friend. Non-layered, very hard, never 'glaze' (although I can't remember ever having a problem with any 'glazed' tip), they don't mushroom on me, I don't need any re-shape after maybe one touch-up after a week or so of play, then they don't need any attention other than chalk. I had two perfectly good WB tips with plenty of meat left on them, played great, and only changed them after almost two years to try out something different.

After getting a lathe in 2019, to begin finishing carbon fiber shaft blanks 'to order' for people, I had to install tips on the new shafts and also started installing tips for teammates, friends and customers. At the same time, I was using Ultraskin hard tips on both my CF shafts and loving them. I play at home and play in weekly league and the Ultraskin hard tips would easily last me 2 years or more, with minimal need for any shaping touch-ups. It got to the point where I was only taking them off to try something different, because people always ask me what I think about this or that brand tip. Frankly I have not tried every expensive tip out there and it's safe to say I never will. So now if someone asks me if I can put a Samsara or Kamui or whatever $$$ tip on for them, I say: "If you really want that tip, you get the tip and I'll put it on - I can't maintain an expensive inventory of tips and my buying it for you or maintaining inventory just requires another markup to you." I do maintain an inventory of soft, medium and hard Ultraskins, and if a customer isn't sure about what they want, I always recommend a medium (Ultraskin) tip. I am not getting complaints. They are also all going to get harder with play anyway. Two people recently asked me for harder tips and I put the WBs on for them and they really like 'em. I've just received some new WB tips, some Cue Components Water Buffalo (non-layered) and some Triangles, and this will probably be the extent of inventory I have for non-layered.

If people ask me for a 'soft' tip, I always try to plant the seed in their mind, telling them they should try a medium, and go on to explain my journey from soft to Hard tips. Some will try but some never stray from 'soft'. I talked one former teammate into moving from a soft tip (Sniper?) on his Cuetec CF shaft to a M/MH tip (a CueSoul) and his first observation after playing with it for awhile is that he says it is easier for him to get draw now. I said: "maybe less spin energy is lost because it's not being absorbed by the 'squish' on impact that you'd otherwise get with your soft tip??" I'm sure Dr. Dave has done a lengthy technical proof on that question...

I've got guys on my team who just can't stop fiddling with their tips, grinding and shaping them down to a nub, even though they've had no mushroom or shape problem going on, until there's almost 1/16" tip left (and ferrule damage), and then they ask for a new soft tip. Really? You've been playing for weeks now with a tiny bit of imagination left on your ferrule, which must be nearly as hard as a break tip, and you want to put a new 'soft' tip on?

So no new info here - just somebody else's opinions and personal views. Maybe it's easier to go back to non-layered tips if you like playing with 'hard' and you find hard non-layered tips you like. I already know there are at least two brand of hard layered tips I like, but probably only a few quality brands I think are 'economical' now.
 
This discussion is pretty old by now, but I hit on it with a web search just to see what others had opined. For over 40 years, I played with whatever came installed on the shaft, and didn't think much of it. Probably replaced them myself with something like Elk Masters, etc. Probably 15-20? years ago (it's all a blur), when I got my first 'high tech' shafts (314), I started seeing ads and was exposed to layered tips. For almost 10 years, the the Tiger 'Everest' medium was my holy grail, and I was happy to get a dozen for $100. But the price just kept going up, and so I tried several other more reasonably priced layered tips, like Talisman, Wizard, Stingray, etc. At the same time, I was realizing that I actually liked harder tips, so moved from M to MH and then exclusivley Hard tips. I am no more likely to miscue because of the hardness of my tip, as my miscues are always a problem with my stroke delivery and not the tip. I also like that if I'm in a pinch, and I need to get a tiny bit of air to ensure clearing a blocking ball, I can just jack up with my playing cue and deliver a more controlled hop and still make shot and shape.

My latest favorite tips are from some OLD WB tips given to me by a friend. Non-layered, very hard, never 'glaze' (although I can't remember ever having a problem with any 'glazed' tip), they don't mushroom on me, I don't need any re-shape after maybe one touch-up after a week or so of play, then they don't need any attention other than chalk. I had two perfectly good WB tips with plenty of meat left on them, played great, and only changed them after almost two years to try out something different.

After getting a lathe in 2019, to begin finishing carbon fiber shaft blanks 'to order' for people, I had to install tips on the new shafts and also started installing tips for teammates, friends and customers. At the same time, I was using Ultraskin hard tips on both my CF shafts and loving them. I play at home and play in weekly league and the Ultraskin hard tips would easily last me 2 years or more, with minimal need for any shaping touch-ups. It got to the point where I was only taking them off to try something different, because people always ask me what I think about this or that brand tip. Frankly I have not tried every expensive tip out there and it's safe to say I never will. So now if someone asks me if I can put a Samsara or Kamui or whatever $$$ tip on for them, I say: "If you really want that tip, you get the tip and I'll put it on - I can't maintain an expensive inventory of tips and my buying it for you or maintaining inventory just requires another markup to you." I do maintain an inventory of soft, medium and hard Ultraskins, and if a customer isn't sure about what they want, I always recommend a medium (Ultraskin) tip. I am not getting complaints. They are also all going to get harder with play anyway. Two people recently asked me for harder tips and I put the WBs on for them and they really like 'em. I've just received some new WB tips, some Cue Components Water Buffalo (non-layered) and some Triangles, and this will probably be the extent of inventory I have for non-layered.

If people ask me for a 'soft' tip, I always try to plant the seed in their mind, telling them they should try a medium, and go on to explain my journey from soft to Hard tips. Some will try but some never stray from 'soft'. I talked one former teammate into moving from a soft tip (Sniper?) on his Cuetec CF shaft to a M/MH tip (a CueSoul) and his first observation after playing with it for awhile is that he says it is easier for him to get draw now. I said: "maybe less spin energy is lost because it's not being absorbed by the 'squish' on impact that you'd otherwise get with your soft tip??" I'm sure Dr. Dave has done a lengthy technical proof on that question...

I've got guys on my team who just can't stop fiddling with their tips, grinding and shaping them down to a nub, even though they've had no mushroom or shape problem going on, until there's almost 1/16" tip left (and ferrule damage), and then they ask for a new soft tip. Really? You've been playing for weeks now with a tiny bit of imagination left on your ferrule, which must be nearly as hard as a break tip, and you want to put a new 'soft' tip on?

So no new info here - just somebody else's opinions and personal views. Maybe it's easier to go back to non-layered tips if you like playing with 'hard' and you find hard non-layered tips you like. I already know there are at least two brand of hard layered tips I like, but probably only a few quality brands I think are 'economical' now.
just a tip: people often will not read a post this 'wordy'. when i see a post that looks like 'war and peace' i skip it.
 
I hear you! lots of weird stuff happening in a pool hall. But the 90% I referred to is out of the players I consider pool players and not bangers...
The worst thing i know is people who throw cues, abuse the equipment and think it`s macho to fire all shots at maximum speed to prove how strong they are.
I have a pretty short fuse, when balls go flying and people behave like kids. I have NO problem telling people like that off!
just a tip: people often will not read a post this 'wordy'. when i see a post that looks like 'war and peace' i skip it.
Good for you.
There - short and sweet
 
This discussion is pretty old by now, but I hit on it with a web search just to see what others had opined. For over 40 years, I played with whatever came installed on the shaft, and didn't think much of it. Probably replaced them myself with something like Elk Masters, etc. Probably 15-20? years ago (it's all a blur), when I got my first 'high tech' shafts (314), I started seeing ads and was exposed to layered tips. For almost 10 years, the the Tiger 'Everest' medium was my holy grail, and I was happy to get a dozen for $100. But the price just kept going up, and so I tried several other more reasonably priced layered tips, like Talisman, Wizard, Stingray, etc. At the same time, I was realizing that I actually liked harder tips, so moved from M to MH and then exclusivley Hard tips. I am no more likely to miscue because of the hardness of my tip, as my miscues are always a problem with my stroke delivery and not the tip. I also like that if I'm in a pinch, and I need to get a tiny bit of air to ensure clearing a blocking ball, I can just jack up with my playing cue and deliver a more controlled hop and still make shot and shape.

My latest favorite tips are from some OLD WB tips given to me by a friend. Non-layered, very hard, never 'glaze' (although I can't remember ever having a problem with any 'glazed' tip), they don't mushroom on me, I don't need any re-shape after maybe one touch-up after a week or so of play, then they don't need any attention other than chalk. I had two perfectly good WB tips with plenty of meat left on them, played great, and only changed them after almost two years to try out something different.

After getting a lathe in 2019, to begin finishing carbon fiber shaft blanks 'to order' for people, I had to install tips on the new shafts and also started installing tips for teammates, friends and customers. At the same time, I was using Ultraskin hard tips on both my CF shafts and loving them. I play at home and play in weekly league and the Ultraskin hard tips would easily last me 2 years or more, with minimal need for any shaping touch-ups. It got to the point where I was only taking them off to try something different, because people always ask me what I think about this or that brand tip. Frankly I have not tried every expensive tip out there and it's safe to say I never will. So now if someone asks me if I can put a Samsara or Kamui or whatever $$$ tip on for them, I say: "If you really want that tip, you get the tip and I'll put it on - I can't maintain an expensive inventory of tips and my buying it for you or maintaining inventory just requires another markup to you." I do maintain an inventory of soft, medium and hard Ultraskins, and if a customer isn't sure about what they want, I always recommend a medium (Ultraskin) tip. I am not getting complaints. They are also all going to get harder with play anyway. Two people recently asked me for harder tips and I put the WBs on for them and they really like 'em. I've just received some new WB tips, some Cue Components Water Buffalo (non-layered) and some Triangles, and this will probably be the extent of inventory I have for non-layered.

If people ask me for a 'soft' tip, I always try to plant the seed in their mind, telling them they should try a medium, and go on to explain my journey from soft to Hard tips. Some will try but some never stray from 'soft'. I talked one former teammate into moving from a soft tip (Sniper?) on his Cuetec CF shaft to a M/MH tip (a CueSoul) and his first observation after playing with it for awhile is that he says it is easier for him to get draw now. I said: "maybe less spin energy is lost because it's not being absorbed by the 'squish' on impact that you'd otherwise get with your soft tip??" I'm sure Dr. Dave has done a lengthy technical proof on that question...

I've got guys on my team who just can't stop fiddling with their tips, grinding and shaping them down to a nub, even though they've had no mushroom or shape problem going on, until there's almost 1/16" tip left (and ferrule damage), and then they ask for a new soft tip. Really? You've been playing for weeks now with a tiny bit of imagination left on your ferrule, which must be nearly as hard as a break tip, and you want to put a new 'soft' tip on?

So no new info here - just somebody else's opinions and personal views. Maybe it's easier to go back to non-layered tips if you like playing with 'hard' and you find hard non-layered tips you like. I already know there are at least two brand of hard layered tips I like, but probably only a few quality brands I think are 'economical' now.
It’s Sunday AM, and I’m just chillin, so I read the whole thing. WB are good tips.
 
it doesnt really matter to me. as long as it's pressed and gives a nice sound, then it should be ok.
Arps:

The pros now I always see the most ''unexpected'' miscue at the least expected time....to me, it's because of the layerZ.

NEVER saw that in the past.
EVER
 
Would someone explain to me how a layered tip will glaze over where as a non-layered tip will not. That logic makes no sense to me, whatsoever.
Layers of glueing between leather layers have allot more exposure with the beveled/angled tip shape.
Like a cross cut of an 8 layered piece of plywood.
 
Arps:

The pros now I always see the most ''unexpected'' miscue at the least expected time....to me, it's because of the layerZ.

NEVER saw that in the past.
EVER
I absoLUTEly agree with you. I've been playing for some 40 years and yes, I have a heck of a stroke and I have NEVER miscued so much in my entire life as I do with layered tips. I heard Jeremy Jones even make the same statement in a broadcast one evening. Until then I thought it was only me. I hate the doggone things. And the price is even more off putting. The cost of them must be literally pennies especially if they're coming out of China.
 
Layers of glueing between leather layers have allot more exposure with the beveled/angled tip shape.
Like a cross cut of an 8 layered piece of plywood.
Let's assume the tip has 8 layers and is 1/4" thick. That's roughly 31/1000 of an inch thick per layer or 1/32 of an inch. That's a LOT of glue surface and a lot of glue being compressed into the leather fibers. I find it very hard to raise a nap on a layered tip like the old days of single thickness tips. That nap is what held the chalk. Granted it was much messier which is also why I guess they came up with new fangled chalks to grip the tip vs the tip gripping the chalk. Doing some very rough calculations if you use a dime radius you're exposing almost half the layers in concentric circles around the tip surface and I have had them delaminate. That littlest center of the tips circle is probably only 3/16 of an inch......that's a guess. And super super thin. I think those thinner layers tend to compact independently as well. Any time I seem to scuff up one of the layered tips to raise a nap it seems to compress and glaze over almost immediately. I always played English at the extreme edges of the ball and almost never miscued until I played around with layered tips. But millions of people seem to love them........to each their own I suppose.
 
just a tip: people often will not read a post this 'wordy'. when i see a post that looks like 'war and peace' i skip it.
But, a lot of people will read it. Brevity has never been my strong point. I'd rather read a tome of valid knowledge based, scientific or experiential information on why one tip or shaft or cue is better than another vs. a trite, "because." Again, to each their own.
 
Back
Top