"Science" an Improper Term? - Pocket Billiards is Knowledge, Physics and Geometry

[CJ Wiley]

I haven't seen Rodney play lately, however, we spoke briefly about the subject

That was a great thread! I never thought about the wrist's movement much before that.

This weekend I watched Rodney (we're on a first name basis) finishing his strokes in the same manner you talk about in that thread. He uses his hand/fingers quite a bit as he spins around the greens, too.

I noticed his game went to a shorter, more compact stroke, but he's still getting a lot of movement on the cue ball. Do you know if his wrist movement has changed from years past?

Best,
Mike

I haven't seen Rodney play lately, however, we spoke briefly about the subject and were comparing how are wrists moved relative to our grip. His moves correctly of course, although he couldn't generate the power I could with just my wrist. When a player cocks his wrist slightly it gives them a fuller motion with their wrist and hand.

He gets similar results, but used more of his arm. Rodney is held back - he's one of the best shot-makers, and punished by only accessing approximately 20% of what's in his "pool box" - he's also fearless, bound by confining rules, and fast cloth.

Maybe I'll make a point to watch him for a minute of two. I can't watch "one-foul" for over a few minutes without getting bored, however, if I'm checking fundamentals that would be more interesting.

When does he play again, I haven't been following the tournament.

I'm getting ready to go to a tournament tonight. I won two in a row this weekend, last night was brutal, I lost my 2nd match and didn't make the finals til almost 2 am......it was 8 Ball race to 3 and I have to go to 4 against all but two players. My bones were aching, it's freeezzzing down here and they have a door that opens every couple of minutes. I don't mind the heat, but the cold effects my touch.

By the way, no one touched the one-ball and we don't check each other's rack. :wink:

 

[Mikjary]

I haven't seen Rodney play lately, however, we spoke briefly about the subject and were comparing how are wrists moved relative to our grip. His moves correctly of course, although he couldn't generate the power I could with just my wrist. When a player cocks his wrist slightly it gives them a fuller motion with their wrist and hand.

He gets similar results, but used more of his arm. Rodney is held back - he's one of the best shot-makers, and punished by only accessing approximately 20% of what's in his "pool box" - he's also fearless, bound by confining rules, and fast cloth.

Maybe I'll make a point to watch him for a minute of two. I can't watch "one-foul" for over a few minutes without getting bored, however, if I'm checking fundamentals that would be more interesting.

When does he play again, I haven't been following the tournament.

I'm getting ready to go to a tournament tonight. I won two in a row this weekend, last night was brutal, I lost my 2nd match and didn't make the finals til almost 2 am......it was 8 Ball race to 3 and I have to go to 4 against all but two players. My bones were aching, it's freeezzzing down here and they have a door that opens every couple of minutes. I don't mind the heat, but the cold effects my touch.

By the way, no one touched the one-ball and we don't check each other's rack. :wink:

It's cold everywhere! You'd think it was January or something. :grin-square:

I highlighted part of your post that I found different in Rodney's game than in years past. He seems to short stroke a portion of his shots and use less arm. Unless I'm taking this literally and you mean something else. He seems to be playing more consistent with less "wildness". He doesn't turn the cue ball loose and has incorporated a nice stun game into his repertoire. I believe his stroke change helps with this new look from him. What a player!

Stay warm and get into some unseasonably hot action! :grin:

Best,
Mike

 

[one stroke]

That's a good point, it's almost like watching an "instant reply" when talking in these terms like physics, and/or geometry - it doesn't help someone do it, but it does help to describe what was taking place at the moment.....so it does have it's place.

"Think long, think wrong" - this certainly applies to playing pool, although players can think all day long to seek to describe pocket billiard's shots (even if the outcome is wrong).

It's like taking a test , they say your first answer is most likely the right one , there are times when you need more time . The ability to switch you mind from the subconscious to the thinking side and back is not always easily done and the better players have learned to do this very well some not so well this is why sharking by a master sharker is effective on lessor players

Better players especially ones from say the Phillipenes aren't easily sharked as they are use to people standing close to the table and some like snooker players entering into the states are much more easily distracted
Pool's physics are applyed in every shot few know why and even fewer care and if they did they would probably be committed as to changing conditions in weather, tips ,shafts ,cue weights , stroke speed , and so on would need to be calculated to have a precise and definitive outcome
It's much easier to just use TOI or CTE :wink:

1

 

[softshot]

Science isn't a conclusion.

Science is a method to find the truth.

Have a nice day..

 

[CJ Wiley]

I had some issues playing on ESPN when I first started because.......

It's like taking a test , they say your first answer is most likely the right one , there are times when you need more time . The ability to switch you mind from the subconscious to the thinking side and back is not always easily done and the better players have learned to do this very well some not so well this is why sharking by a master sharker is effective on lessor players

Better players especially ones from say the Phillipenes aren't easily sharked as they are use to people standing close to the table and some like snooker players entering into the states are much more easily distracted
Pool's physics are applyed in every shot few know why and even fewer care and if they did they would probably be committed as to changing conditions in weather, tips ,shafts ,cue weights , stroke speed , and so on would need to be calculated to have a precise and definitive outcome
It's much easier to just use TOI or CTE :wink:

1

Yes, aiming systems and physics were not discussed when we were on the road. We were more interested in what worked to win, rather than filling our heads with information that wasn't necessary. When I started cuing the ball to the inside (TOI) everything started to fall in place.

The "system" I used then was, I either aligned to the center of the object ball or the edge, at that time I didn't really understand what I was doing, and when I made the 'Ultimate Pool Secrets' it forced me to research it and after a few months it was completed and I could explain, and teach it.

I had some issues playing on ESPN at first though because I was accustomed to being emotionless. The ESPN producer wanted me to change that and be able to be more social in between games, and sometimes even shots.

The Game is the Teacher

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I hear the word "science" used improperly regarding pocket billiards on this forum. Saying you need to understand "the science of pool" is misleading unless talking about philosophy. I do enjoy the philosophy of pool (pocket billiards), although I would not refer to it as "natural science".

Science is an inaccurate term (in most cases), the etymology (history) of the word is actually linked to philosophy*. Physics, Pursuit of Knowledge, and/or Geometry are what would be considered a better choice of wording to not confuse players and fans. SEE REFERENCE BELOW CLICK FOR MORE KNOWLEDGE

*
Ever since classical antiquity, science as a type of knowledge has been closely linked to philosophy. During the Islamic Golden Age,[2] the foundation for the scientific method was laid, which emphasized experimental data and reproducibility of its results.[nb 2] In the West during the early modern period the words "science" and "philosophy of nature" were sometimes used interchangeably,[3].3 and until the 17th century natural philosophy (which is today called "natural science") was considered a separate branch of philosophy in the West.[4]

CJ,

One of my majors in college was philosophy. I love it. As I understand it, philosophy literally means the love of wisdom. Wisdom could be seen as the practical application of knowledge, but I guess there is more to it than that.

Science primarily deals with the *method* by which we build "knowledge". Testing hypotheses by way of experimentation, replacing old info with newer more thoroughly proven info, and creating distinctions and delineating them are all under the umbrella of science.

As such, I believe science very much has a place in pool. Really, it has a place in most aspects of our lives. Generally, the "science" we use day to day is not organized or rigorous. It's pretty loose science lol. However, any time we test an idea of ours and use the data we accumulate to support or dispute our ideas, we are essentially engaging in science.

Philosophy is even more pervasive in our lives. Essentially, we are engaged in philosophy almost non stop through most of our days. Again, it is usually not particularly rigorous or organized.

People like Bob Jewett, Dr. Dave, and the various people that have designed experiments to further our understanding of pool and the physical aspects of the game are very much engaging in science. Our body of knowledge depends on science to grow and become more accurate.

When I am at the table, however, I am not exactly being "scientific" about my game. I am simply drawing on my experience, which in some ways takes the form of an inventory of "shots". I pull a shot out of my toolchest and put it to work. Whether or not it was the best tool, or whether I use that tool effectively in that instance or generally, is perhaps more in the realm of science to decide, *after* the fact.

I guess maybe a good analogy would be this: Science is used to design the tools we used so that they are effective, philosophy is used to decide *which* tools we need and why. But actually *using* the tools is probably not science. Learning, Understanding, Doing. Science, Philosophy, what...I guess I can't think of a good word that describes the *doing* part of it. "Doing" maybe lol?

Interesting topic!!

KMRUNOUT

 

[hang-the-9]

Science is the scientific method which is basically observing what happens, trying things, testing them to see if it's repeatable. When you take a shot, you watch what happens, note what you were doing when it happens, if it's the wrong result you adjust it and try again. Once you get the result you want, you note what you were doing and by repeating that you can do it again.

Some people would use the "religious" method, close eyes, hit hard and hope something falls in. If nothing goes in, you did not pray enough and it's your fault.

There is certaintly an art outside of pure science to playing pool since you end up with so many different variables as far as the table, balls, cue, tip and especially the human element where it's very hard to repeat the exact same thing you did over and over. Even the pro players, if measured accurately, would have variences in stroke from shot to shot even if shooting the same shot.

I hear the word "science" used improperly regarding pocket billiards on this forum. Saying you need to understand "the science of pool" is misleading unless talking about philosophy. I do enjoy the philosophy of pool (pocket billiards), although I would not refer to it as "natural science".

Science is an inaccurate term (in most cases), the etymology (history) of the word is actually linked to philosophy*. Physics, Pursuit of Knowledge, and/or Geometry are what would be considered a better choice of wording to not confuse players and fans. SEE REFERENCE BELOW CLICK FOR MORE KNOWLEDGE

*
Ever since classical antiquity, science as a type of knowledge has been closely linked to philosophy. During the Islamic Golden Age,[2] the foundation for the scientific method was laid, which emphasized experimental data and reproducibility of its results.[nb 2] In the West during the early modern period the words "science" and "philosophy of nature" were sometimes used interchangeably,[3].3 and until the 17th century natural philosophy (which is today called "natural science") was considered a separate branch of philosophy in the West.[4]

 

[DAVE_M]

Saying you need to understand "the science of pool" is misleading unless talking about philosophy.

sci·ence noun \ˈsī-ən(t)s\
: knowledge about or study of the natural world based on facts learned through experiments and observation

: a particular area of scientific study (such as biology, physics, or chemistry) : a particular branch of science

: a subject that is formally studied in a college, university, etc.

How is the science of pool misleading? Have you had your daily dose of TOI coffee yet?

The natural world; It can be interpreted in many ways, but the physics of two spheres smashing into each other and different velocities, whilst rotating about an axis, is indeed science in the natural world. Just because Aramith Super Pros were not forged in the Earth's crust, does not mean "the science of pool" is a misleading phrase. After all, it's just a bunch of letters jumbled on a page, it can be interpreted how you want it to be. Thus leading to my point, you make threads based solely on your opinion and you try to force your opinion upon all of us. You should become a preacher.

 

[John Brumback]

CJ,

One of my majors in college was philosophy. I love it. As I understand it, philosophy literally means the love of wisdom. Wisdom could be seen as the practical application of knowledge, but I guess there is more to it than that.

Science primarily deals with the *method* by which we build "knowledge". Testing hypotheses by way of experimentation, replacing old info with newer more thoroughly proven info, and creating distinctions and delineating them are all under the umbrella of science.

As such, I believe science very much has a place in pool. Really, it has a place in most aspects of our lives. Generally, the "science" we use day to day is not organized or rigorous. It's pretty loose science lol. However, any time we test an idea of ours and use the data we accumulate to support or dispute our ideas, we are essentially engaging in science.

Philosophy is even more pervasive in our lives. Essentially, we are engaged in philosophy almost non stop through most of our days. Again, it is usually not particularly rigorous or organized.

People like Bob Jewett, Dr. Dave, and the various people that have designed experiments to further our understanding of pool and the physical aspects of the game are very much engaging in science. Our body of knowledge depends on science to grow and become more accurate.

When I am at the table, however, I am not exactly being "scientific" about my game. I am simply drawing on my experience, which in some ways takes the form of an inventory of "shots". I pull a shot out of my toolchest and put it to work. Whether or not it was the best tool, or whether I use that tool effectively in that instance or generally, is perhaps more in the realm of science to decide, *after* the fact.

I guess maybe a good analogy would be this: Science is used to design the tools we used so that they are effective, philosophy is used to decide *which* tools we need and why. But actually *using* the tools is probably not science. Learning, Understanding, Doing. Science, Philosophy, what...I guess I can't think of a good word that describes the *doing* part of it. "Doing" maybe lol?

Interesting topic!!

KMRUNOUT

This makes a lot of sense to me.I agree!! too, this has been a very interesting subject. I think I started it really. Or was that hick from MO? I have learned more about all this than I ever did in school,lol. I would like it to be noted that back there somewhere I said that maybe I could learn a few things on AZB also. Thanks everyone for all the very thoughtful insight and time that was put into this. I'm going to have to change some of my thinking.....that's for sure!. Have a good day in AZB land:smile: John B.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I would like it to be noted that back there somewhere I said that maybe I could learn a few things on AZB also. Thanks everyone for all the very thoughtful insight and time that was put into this. I'm going to have to change some of my thinking.....that's for sure!.

And in regard to your thread about haters and pros, this attitude is why you will always be welcome here, and why those who come on here attempting to impose their thinking upon others will always meet resistance.

Anyway, thanks for being here!

 

[mikepage]

What's your point, do you prefer using "science" instead of knowledge, physics and geometry?

Science is a very broad term, and it's a stretch to use it in describing pool knowledge, or the physics/geometry involved to play the game.

Using "science" to describe aspects of pool is no stretch at all. Science is not knowledge per se; rather it is an approach to gaining knowledge about the natural world around us, and that approach is as profitably applied to pool as it is to every other aspect of the natural world.

Philosophy of pool, on the other hand. That sounds like gobblygook...

 

[DAVE_M]

Using "science" to describe aspects of pool is no stretch at all. Science is not knowledge per se; rather it is an approach to gaining knowledge about the natural world around us, and that approach is as profitably applied to pool as it is to every other aspect of the natural world.

Philosophy of pool, on the other hand. That sounds like gobblygook...

The Gobblygook is the Teacher.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Science isn't a conclusion.

Science is a method to find the truth.

Have a nice day..

I'll always remember the job interview I had with the MD who was in charge of a cancer research center I had sent my resume to. Regarding the specifics of their work there, he told me, "I know I'm right, now I just have to prove it."

After I got the job, I told the senior lab scientist about our conversation, and he said, "Yeah, well ignore what he says. That's not the way we play the game here. He's just a clinician and the grant writer. He finds the money and provides our paychecks, but he's a doctor and knows nothing about how real science is done."

 

[vagabond]

CJ has not changed. More than 20 years ago I and CJ had very brief discussion on this matter. His point of view on pool - science- Knowledge at that time is same as the things he is saying in his thread now.

By the way, Some universities offer courses in "Political sciences". Politics is science?

 

[JeremiahGage]

Sports psychology is science too! Check out http://www.thesportinmind.com

 

[CJ Wiley]

"science" is too broad a term and indicates more than many might realize.

CJ has not changed. More than 20 years ago I and CJ had very brief discussion on this matter. His point of view on pool - science- Knowledge at that time is same as the things he is saying in his thread now.

By the way, Some universities offer courses in "Political sciences". Politics is science?

Yes, you're right, I have "pool knowledge," not "pool science" - my only point is "science" is too broad a term and indicates more than many might realize......like politics, biology, and philosophy.

Dr. Dave has a "warehouse of knowledge," not a "warehouse of science" on his famous website. Very useful info. for those that desire it, just making a point that the pool verbiage is not specific regarding this particular subject matter.

Physics, philosophy, and geometry are more appropriate words in most cases.

 

[DAVE_M]

Dr. Dave has a "warehouse of knowledge," not a "warehouse of science" on his famous website.

Oranges are orange!
No oranges are a slight shade of pumpkin!

:deadhorse:

 

[CJ Wiley]

That sounds like someone on a bumper pool forum

Oranges are orange!
No oranges are a slight shade of pumpkin!

:deadhorse:

That sounds like someone on a bumper pool forum. I'm going to get my "scientific" telescope and see if I can spot them.......there they are. LoL

 

[Jaden]

Science...

Yes, you're right, I have "pool knowledge," not "pool science" - my only point is "science" is too broad a term and indicates more than many might realize......like politics, biology, and philosophy.

Dr. Dave has a "warehouse of knowledge," not a "warehouse of science" on his famous website. Very useful info. for those that desire it, just making a point that the pool verbiage is not specific regarding this particular subject matter.

Physics, philosophy, and geometry are more appropriate words in most cases.

Science is a systematic method of gaining knowledge, not truth.

Science is not really all that broad, but because it can be used to gain knowledge about anything, it is used often.

The Science of "insert whatever" is simply using the scientific method to learn about the whatever that is inserted.

The science of pool is only broad in scope regarding what about pool you're trying to learn about. It can include the physics of ball collisions and friction with the cloth, the geometry of angles and spheres meeting on a plane, or the psychology of competition. It can include the influence of different types of chalk on the friction between tip and ball, the different types of shafts and off center hits, the different types of stroke, bridge position, body position etc.

If ANY of those things are looked into using the scientific method, then they could be included in the science of pool.

Jaden

 

[HelloBaby-]

It's always good to have something to discuss on an open forum. But this seems go a little bit too far...
Come on man, are you serious ? :scratchhead: