BHE and FHE English

T

tonythetiger583

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Moved the topic here, to get a larger pool of information:

I've watched Dr Dave's videos as well as Joe Tucker's videos on the subject, but I still don't know exactly when to use BHE or FHE.

I've found the natural pivot point on my cue, and this is what I've gotten so far:

-I'll use BHE on fast shots, or short shots.
-I'll use FHE on long slow shots, or very slow short shots.


-I'll use a combination of the two on...well I've just used both together and it's worked, but I don't know really when to use both.


So I guess to sum up, I'd just like some parameters of when to use either one exclusively, and when to use a combination.

Please and Thanks.
 
So I played around with both on the table tonight, and I think I might have an idea about it.

Front hand english seems to squirt a little bit more and swerve takes longer to kick in.
Back hand seems to squirt less but swerves much faster.

So if a shot is too slow and too far, BHE will swerve off line before it reaches the target. FHE will squirt off more initially but over a longer distance and at slower speeds, there is enough time for the cue ball to swerve back on line.

So FHE = more squirt but swerves at a later point.
BHE=less initial squirt, but swerves sooner.

Then it's a matter of judging at what point in the shot you want swerve to take effect.

This is just a guess, based on my limited experience. I would really like other opinions on the subject.
 
Pivoting the cue is a tricky business

tonythetiger583 said:
So I played around with both on the table tonight, and I think I might have an idea about it.

Front hand english seems to squirt a little bit more and swerve takes longer to kick in.
Back hand seems to squirt less but swerves much faster.

So if a shot is too slow and too far, BHE will swerve off line before it reaches the target. FHE will squirt off more initially but over a longer distance and at slower speeds, there is enough time for the cue ball to swerve back on line.

So FHE = more squirt but swerves at a later point.
BHE=less initial squirt, but swerves sooner.

Then it's a matter of judging at what point in the shot you want swerve to take effect.

This is just a guess, based on my limited experience. I would really like other opinions on the subject.
Click to expand...

I would recommend that you keep your cue as straight as possible and don't pivot at all, just come down precisely where you want to make contact (on the cue ball).

Pivoting the cue is a tricky business, it took me 43 chapters to explain and demonstrate the TIP System (Touch of Inside Pivot), of course it's mainly used for banking and safety play (ideal for one-pocket players).

Whenever I do pivot for a regular shot I start on the inside and pivot to the center, "less is best".

Play Well.
 
tonythetiger583 said:
.
.
Front hand english seems to squirt a little bit more and swerve takes longer to kick in.
Back hand seems to squirt less but swerves much faster.
.
.
Click to expand...
I had a somewhat rigorous post prepared to address the foregoing statements in your previous post, but when I got finished with it, it just seemed overdone. So, at the risk of being misunderstood, I will simply say that:
When creating English (and its ever-present attendant, squirt) with an off-axis (i.e., not center ball) stroke of the cue stick to the cue ball, the only things that matter are the offset, and the force. How you arrive at said offset (either via FHE, or BHE) is inconsequential.​
 
swest said:
I had a somewhat rigorous post prepared to address the foregoing statements in your previous post, but when I got finished with it, it just seemed overdone. So, at the risk of being misunderstood, I will simply say that:
When creating English (and its ever-present attendant, squirt) with an off-axis (i.e., not center ball) stroke of the cue stick to the cue ball, the only things that matter are the offset, and the force. How you arrive at said offset (either via FHE, or BHE) is inconsequential.​
Click to expand...

I understand what you mean. The amounts of either are only dependent on the physics. But, one individual might tend to get more in the set up with front & another might tend to get more with the set up of back.

Since, I started with english when I was 13 years old, I always seemed to like 'parallel' better. I know it might not have been 'parallel', but I had no thought of the cue ball squirt but I did see swerve & that sort of became my focus. The lack of complete knowledge was probably a blessing.

To me, english, or even TOI is a feel thing & with experience one will adapt.

To me, if one wants to make it, english, a mechanical 'contrivance' one will not reach a level of full benefit nor the mastery of it.

Naturally these are just my opinions based on my experiences.

Best to All,
Rick
 
Last edited:
swest said:
I had a somewhat rigorous post prepared to address the foregoing statements in your previous post, but when I got finished with it, it just seemed overdone. So, at the risk of being misunderstood, I will simply say that:
When creating English (and its ever-present attendant, squirt) with an off-axis (i.e., not center ball) stroke of the cue stick to the cue ball, the only things that matter are the offset, and the force. How you arrive at said offset (either via FHE, or BHE) is inconsequential.​
Click to expand...

If you still have the post, I wouldn`t mind if you just PM`d it to me. Any information is welcome.
 
tonythetiger583 said:
Moved the topic here, to get a larger pool of information:

I've watched Dr Dave's videos as well as Joe Tucker's videos on the subject, but I still don't know exactly when to use BHE or FHE.

I've found the natural pivot point on my cue, and this is what I've gotten so far:

-I'll use BHE on fast shots, or short shots.
-I'll use FHE on long slow shots, or very slow short shots.


-I'll use a combination of the two on...well I've just used both together and it's worked, but I don't know really when to use both.


So I guess to sum up, I'd just like some parameters of when to use either one exclusively, and when to use a combination.

Please and Thanks.
Click to expand...
BHE or FHE are usually chosen in order to pivot the cue as close as possible to your shaft's "pivot length". The "pivot length" is closer to the tip for higher-squirt shafts and farther from the tip for lower-squirt shafts. Moving your back hand pivots the cue closer to the tip, so it's better for higher-squirt shafts - moving your front hand pivots the cue farther from the tip, so it's better for lower-squirt shafts.

Whatever spin and speed you want on the CB when it hits the OB, there's only one cue angle that will do it - so you have to arrive at that same cue angle whether you use BHE, FHE, a combination of the two or simply adjust your aim entirely "by feel". And because there are several variables that affect squirt and swerve, some (maybe a lot of) "feel" is needed no matter how you do it.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
BHE or FHE are usually chosen in order to pivot the cue as close as possible to your shaft's "pivot length". The "pivot length" is closer to the tip for higher-squirt shafts and farther from the tip for lower-squirt shafts. Moving your back hand pivots the cue closer to the tip, so it's better for higher-squirt shafts - moving your front hand pivots the cue farther from the tip, so it's better for lower-squirt shafts.

Whatever spin and speed you want on the CB when it hits the OB, there's only one cue angle that will do it - so you have to arrive at that same cue angle whether you use BHE, FHE, a combination of the two or simply adjust your aim entirely "by feel". And because there are several variables that affect squirt and swerve, some (maybe a lot of) "feel" is needed no matter how you do it.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Welcome back.
 
I feel its more beneficial to play with side by just getting down where you want to hit. Pivoting is a great way to get to know your cue, but my biggest gripe about it is it throws your alignment out or shifts your weight balance out. Both can cause you to cue across the white and not through it.

How I do it is a little hard to fully explain. I just find my line of aim for pocketing the ball without side spin. Then I look at the white where I want to hit, and imagine cueing through this point and visualize how the ball(s) will react. That's how I started out anyway. Now it doesn't take any thinking I just do it.

I would suggest marking your cues pivot length with a pencil or something. Mark it for all kinds of cue angles, speeds and distances. It might shorten the learning curve.
 
top center and low

I really like Dr. Dave's presentation of this (and just about every other thing he explains). One point he does not seem to address is the difference in squirt with top vs bottom or center English. Roger Long pointed this out to me (and mentioned he had a little debate with Dr. Dave on it too) and I believe Roger is correct. If the ball doesn't slide it doesn't squirt much at all.

So a very high hit (top 40% or more) ball that has immediate roll deflects very little even if hit hard. I can't use BHE on long hard hit high English without getting too much correction. Often I can even live with a simple parallel shift on these shots which is all I use on short soft shots. I actually favor a slight front hand correction for hard follow and BHE for hard low or center where there seems to be more squirt.

I can test this to extremes and get squirt but it is almost a miscue and is not a shot I would normally use. It seems to be a matter of how quickly the ball rolls. To get squirt with high I have to hit it WAY off center and VERY hard. This is not true with center or low.

I am not saying there is NO squirt, just not nearly as much. It is very hard to get un biased results so I don't hold my experiences out as anything but anecdotal. I see many players who believe all kinds of things based on experience that don't prove out in a lab. That is what I like most about Dr. Dave's explanations, they are backed with some pretty clear test results. It is hard to argue with a guy with a Mechanical Engineering degree and a Masters in Physics when it comes to WHY things do what they do :-).

I would like to hear what others think about this.
 
Last edited:
skipbales said:
...Roger Long pointed this out to me (and mentioned he had a little debate with Dr. Dave on it too) and I believe Roger is correct. If the ball doesn't slide it doesn't squirt much at all.

...

I would like to hear what others think about this.
Click to expand...
I don't know what Roger said, but sliding or not has little or nothing to do with squirt, and there's just as much squirt when hitting high as when hitting low - the difference is the effectiveness of the swerve that comes with it. Swerve acts more quickly with a high hit than with a low one, because the CB is forced downward by hitting (at least a little) downward on top of the ball and by "vertical squirt" which is also a downward force in that case.

The quicker-acting swerve with a high hit looks like less squirt, and the effect is the same as less squirt, but it's not really less squirt. Try hitting a hard sidespin shot with the CB frozen to the rail and you'll find yourself aiming on the opposite side of your intended CB path because of this.

pj
chgo
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top