Taiwan TOI

[Bambu]

I increase the shot speed.

Thanks CJ, I think I am beginning to finally understand the method. I thought that was what you meant all this time, but I didn't want to assume anything. By "all this time" I mean ever since I began reading your posts.


I'm probably not the first person who will say this to you, but here goes: "You know CJ, all the modern textbooks say speed doesn't effect deflection."


Nonetheless, I find your answer very interesting. Because when I first read that about deflection myself, years ago: I went, "wow, really?"


Now I'm thinking, here is a pro who says otherwise, that speed really is a function of deflection. And this particular pro plays exclusively with deflection.


Could it be that the science guys actually got something wrong? Could deflection really be effected by speed after all? Maybe moreso with high squirt shafts? Perhaps by such a minute amount, that its undetectable or unremarkable for most players?

 

[duckie]

Here is a pic of a one of the table layout of 15 ball practice. See, I like to bring the real world into things and not just talk and speculation.

Alot more crowded then just 9 balls spread out over the table or using 1 ball to practice, huh. SO, set this 15 ball layout as seen and use all these methods to run all 15 balls. NO CENTER BALL.

Just TOI, squirt, swerve, deflection. Come on should be a snap for you guys.....

Oh, It doesn't matter how far I got or maybe even ran them all, cause I ain't preaching my method is the only way.

If your practice sessions are not harder than your games, you are not practicing correctly.

Oh, sometimes with the 15 ball roll out drill, the only shots allowed are combos, banks, or caroms or a mix of the three.

Try this layout with those guidelines.

Have fun...........

 

[BeiberLvr]

Here is a pic of a one of the table layout of 15 ball practice. See, I like to bring the real world into things and not just talk and speculation.

Alot more crowded then just 9 balls spread out over the table or using 1 ball to practice, huh. SO, set this 15 ball layout as seen and use all these methods to run all 15 balls. NO CENTER BALL.

Just TOI, squirt, swerve, deflection. Come on should be a snap for you guys.....

Oh, It doesn't matter how far I got or maybe even ran them all, cause I ain't preaching my method is the only way.

If your practice sessions are not harder than your games, you are not practicing correctly.

Oh, sometimes with the 15 ball roll out drill, the only shots allowed are combos, banks, or caroms or a mix of the three.

Try this layout with those guidelines.

Have fun...........

Neither are they.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The reward for only understanding the "science" of pool is disappointment.

Thanks CJ, I think I am beginning to finally understand the method. I thought that was what you meant all this time, but I didn't want to assume anything. By "all this time" I mean ever since I began reading your posts.


I'm probably not the first person who will say this to you, but here goes: "You know CJ, all the modern textbooks say speed doesn't effect deflection."


Nonetheless, I find your answer very interesting. Because when I first read that about deflection myself, years ago: I went, "wow, really?"


Now I'm thinking, here is a pro who says otherwise, that speed really is a function of deflection. And this particular pro plays exclusively with deflection.


Could it be that the science guys actually got something wrong? Could deflection really be effected by speed after all? Maybe moreso with high squirt shafts? Perhaps by such a minute amount, that its undetectable or unremarkable for most players?

You can prove this to yourself, simply use a touch of inside on every shot for an hour. Try several speeds on the same shot and see what happens. I have not heard of a scientist that could run a rack of 8 or 9 Ball consistently, so they might not know how to test the shots properly. Or they have a hidden agenda and this influences the outcome.

The reward for understanding only the "science" of pool is disappointment.

For many years people were convinced that deflection was a "bad" thing. Like many other things, it is negative if you don't know how to use it. A gun is a dangerous thing for a child to handle, however, in the hands of a military person it can save lives. This military person has fired many rounds, taken safety courses, and has good fundamentals. You can use the same analogy about martial arts weapons, cars and golf clubs.

You can see new golf clubs on the market that claim to not spin the ball {as much} on off-center hits. These are directed at beginners, the pros want to spin the ball and will choose their equipment accordingly. This also applies to "low deflection" shafts, they will help beginners, however, I control my deflection by the size of shaft I choose for a certain table......the bigger the table, the smaller the shaft (as a general rule).

 

[Mikjary]

First of all, TOI is only used as needed. Straight in shots or slow rolling hits don't really call for it.

It's a tool, just like draw, follow, stun, etc. Your line of thinking is that it has to be used on every shot. Do you use draw on every shot?

Playing rotation games, I may use TOI a couple of times in one rack, and 6-7 times in another. The rest of the strokes are center ball or outside spin.

In straight pool, the same approach happens. I'm slow rolling certain shots with inside, outside or center ball. If I need TOI for position, I use it, but not for every shot.

Instead of attaching negative results to using TOI, adding it as an occasional tool in your arsenal would supplement your game. It isn't the only way to shoot, but it does open up a broad range of possibilities to explore. GL with your game.

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

Thanks CJ, I think I am beginning to finally understand the method. I thought that was what you meant all this time, but I didn't want to assume anything. By "all this time" I mean ever since I began reading your posts.


I'm probably not the first person who will say this to you, but here goes: "You know CJ, all the modern textbooks say speed doesn't effect deflection."


Nonetheless, I find your answer very interesting. Because when I first read that about deflection myself, years ago: I went, "wow, really?"


Now I'm thinking, here is a pro who says otherwise, that speed really is a function of deflection. And this particular pro plays exclusively with deflection.


Could it be that the science guys actually got something wrong? Could deflection really be effected by speed after all? Maybe moreso with high squirt shafts? Perhaps by such a minute amount, that its undetectable or unremarkable for most players?

Dave,

Adding speed to the TOI equation helps eliminate the swerve component, not change the deflection. Only changing your tip position will change the deflection. That is CJ's result when he says to add speed to get the thinner cut.

TOI relies more on deflection than swerve because of the small off center cueing. You won't see as much swerve as you do using side spin.

TOI doesn't change physics, but it is magical sometimes. :grin-square: I better run before I get flamed!

Best,
Mike

 

[AtLarge]

... have not heard of a scientist that could run a rack of 8 or 9 Ball consistently ...

Jonni Fulcher

 

[cookie man]

Here is a pic of a one of the table layout of 15 ball practice. See, I like to bring the real world into things and not just talk and speculation.

Alot more crowded then just 9 balls spread out over the table or using 1 ball to practice, huh. SO, set this 15 ball layout as seen and use all these methods to run all 15 balls. NO CENTER BALL.

Just TOI, squirt, swerve, deflection. Come on should be a snap for you guys.....

Oh, It doesn't matter how far I got or maybe even ran them all, cause I ain't preaching my method is the only way.

If your practice sessions are not harder than your games, you are not practicing correctly.

Oh, sometimes with the 15 ball roll out drill, the only shots allowed are combos, banks, or caroms or a mix of the three.

Try this layout with those guidelines.

Have fun...........

I'll get right on that, just for you.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Efren showed me a practice game with 30 balls that I used to practice TOI.

Here is a pic of a one of the table layout of 15 ball practice. See, I like to bring the real world into things and not just talk and speculation.

Alot more crowded then just 9 balls spread out over the table or using 1 ball to practice, huh. SO, set this 15 ball layout as seen and use all these methods to run all 15 balls. NO CENTER BALL.

Just TOI, squirt, swerve, deflection. Come on should be a snap for you guys.....

Oh, It doesn't matter how far I got or maybe even ran them all, cause I ain't preaching my method is the only way.

If your practice sessions are not harder than your games, you are not practicing correctly.

Oh, sometimes with the 15 ball roll out drill, the only shots allowed are combos, banks, or caroms or a mix of the three.

Try this layout with those guidelines.

Have fun...........

I grew up playing 15 Ball rotation and 8 Ball, so I'm familiar with having all the balls on the table. Efren showed me a practice game with 30 balls that I used to practice TOI.

Here's an example of Beating the 15 Ball Ghost. <--------Click

Last time playing the 14 Ball Ghost I won 7/5, 7/4 - this is no easy task for anyone.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'm not answering for CJ...here's my take on adjusting (CJ, set me straight :grin-square.

If I'm hitting the ball firm already and swerve is a minimum like on old cloth or dirty equipment, I won't change my speed. It really won't help much. I'll move a fraction of a tip away from center cue ball and get a tiny bit more deflection and some over cut on the object ball.

On better cloth and conditions, I'll eliminate the swerve with an increase slightly in speed. This also decreases cling/throw slightly, causing a thinner cut.

This, like CJ says, is why players lose long sets after jumping out to an early lead. They don't recalibrate for changing table conditions, more or less humidity, and the equipment getting dirty from chalk and hand oils. Miss a few key shots and you're going home with no cheese! View attachment 371897

Best,
Mike

Mike,

What you said about the fast better conditions just lit a small LED light 'bulb' in my head.

It's about those long thin cuts that TOI pockets so well. I have over cut some of the most extreme ones to my utter amazement at times.

I just realeyesed that I have probably been hitting them a bit too hard. I need to adjust just a bit.

I quess what I have been doing is sort of a choke or dog of those shots. That statement is amazing given the difficulty of the shots that I'm talking about. But...it's true.

I'm overdoing them.

Thanks...And this is what the discussion forums should be all about. Civil 'talk' that can actually help one another even when one is not a main participant of t he discussion or conversation.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

 

[CJ Wiley]

did he just study physics in college?

Jonni Fulcher

I haven't heard of him (until now) - is he a scientist or did he just study physics in college?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have not heard of a scientist that could run a rack of 8 or 9 Ball consistently, so they might not know how to test the shots properly. Or they have a hidden agenda and this influences the outcome.

The reward for only understanding the "science" of pool is disappointment.

There's no shame in not understanding science. No need to be all defensive about it.

pj
chgo

 

[Bambu]

You can prove this to yourself, simply use a touch of inside on every shot for an hour. Try several speeds on the same shot and see what happens. I have not heard of a scientist that could run a rack of 8 or 9 Ball consistently, so they might not know how to test the shots properly. Or they have a hidden agenda and this influences the outcome.

The reward for only understanding the "science" of pool is disappointment.

For many years people were convinced that deflection was a "bad" thing. Like many other things, it is negative if you don't know how to use it. A gun is a dangerous thing for a child to handle, however, in the hands of a military person it can save lives. This military person has fired many rounds, taken safety courses, and has good fundamentals. You can use the same analogy about martial arts weapons, cars and golf clubs.

You can see new golf clubs on the market that claim to not spin the ball {as much} on off-center hits. These are directed at beginners, the pros want to spin the ball and will choose their equipment accordingly. This also applies to "low deflection" shafts, they will help beginners, however, I control my deflection by the size of shaft I choose for a certain table......the bigger the table, the smaller the shaft (as a general rule).

Thanks again CJ. Are you sure its not the swerve that changes with speed, as PJ said earlier, and now Mike? Meaning, does speed influence deflection on short distance shots too..... shots that don't involve swerve?

 

[CJ Wiley]

Mike,

What you said about the fast better conditions just lit a small LED light 'bulb' in my head.

It's about those long thin cuts that TOI pockets so well. I have over cut some of the most extreme ones to my utter amazement at times.

I just realeyesed that I have probably been hitting them a bit too hard. I need to adjust just a bit.

I quess what I have been doing is sort of a choke or dog of those shots. That statement is amazing given the difficulty of the shots that I'm talking about. But...it's true.

I'm overdoing them.

Thanks...And this is what the discussion forums should be all about. Civil 'talk' that can actually help one another even when one is not a main participant of a discussion or conversation.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

Go find a pool table and try it out, talking is no substitute for practice.

 

[CJ Wiley]

There is a way to adjust for these distances, and it's in the alignment.

Thanks again CJ. Are you sure its not the swerve that changes with speed, as PJ said earlier, and now Mike? Meaning, does speed influence deflection on short distance shots too..... shots that don't involve swerve?

I don't recommend using TOI when the balls are close together. It's prudent to either intentionally over-cut the shot, or use a touch of outside to throw these shots in.

There is a way to adjust for these distances, and it's in the alignment.

The alignment is almost always "Center/Edge," even when the shot is almost straight in, on longer shots the alignment is usually "Center/Center," even on extremely thin cuts.

 

[Bambu]

I don't recommend using TOI when the balls are close together. It's prudent to either intentionally over-cut the shot, or use a touch of outside to throw these shots in.

There is a way to adjust for these distances, and it's in the alignment.

The alignment is almost always "Center/Edge," even when the shot is almost straight in, on longer shots the alignment is usually "Center/Center," even on extremely thin cuts.

Once again, I thank you for your time and explanation. I have a much better understanding of toi now.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Go find a pool table and try it out, talking is no substitute for practice.

CJ,

How do you think I'm overcutting those long very thin shots? I'm not doing it on my computer.

I've made a ton of them & that has been a great asset that TOI has provided me, as TOI makes them virtually stress free.

I was only talking about the extreme angled ones that I've rather often overcut to my amazement. I've been overhitting them or my alignment may have been a bit off, but I don't think so.

I think it is the fact that I am playing with a very low squirt shaft & I am making sure (apparently to excess) that I am getting the squirt needed from the CTE alignment.

Mike's statement about the table conditions just jogged my mind.

All of this 'talking' here on AZB is just extra stuff, but...at times gold nuggets pop out of them.

But... I will be out of the box for awhile since my wife just had a knee replacement.

Best 2 You & Thanks Again for Introducing TOI here & for everything else that you're doing for 'The Game'.

Rick

 

[Bambu]

Dave,

Adding speed to the TOI equation helps eliminate the swerve component, not change the deflection. Only changing your tip position will change the deflection. That is CJ's result when he says to add speed to get the thinner cut.

TOI relies more on deflection than swerve because of the small off center cueing. You won't see as much swerve as you do using side spin.

TOI doesn't change physics, but it is magical sometimes. :grin-square: I better run before I get flamed!

Best,
Mike

You the man, Mike. Gotcha, thanks again.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Are you aligning Center/Edge, or Center/Center on these long cut-shots?

CJ,

How do you think I'm overcutting those long very thin shots? I'm not doing it on my computer.

I've made a ton of them & that has been a great asset that TOI has provided me, as TOI makes them virtually stress free.

I was only talking about the extreme angled ones that I've rather often overcut to my amazement. I've been overhitting them or my alignment may have been a bit off, but I don't think so.

I think it is the fact that I am playing with a very low squirt shaft & I am making sure (apparently to excess) that I am getting the squirt needed from the CTE alignment.

Mike's statement about the table conditions just jogged my mind.

All of this 'talking' here on AZB is just extra stuff, but...at times gold nuggets pop out of them.

But... I will be out of the box for awhile since my wife just had a knee replacement.

Best 2 You & Thanks Again for Introducing TOI here & for everything else that you're doing for 'The Game'.

Rick

I know you play pool, it's just best to immediately test new learnings on the table. I am fortunate to have a pool table 20 feet from my office, so I do this on a regular basis.

Are you aligning Center/Edge, or Center/Center on these long cut-shots?

 

[CJ Wiley]

Learning to use TOI is like learning to read, the student has to learn the A,B,C's

Dave,

Adding speed to the TOI equation helps eliminate the swerve component, not change the deflection. Only changing your tip position will change the deflection. That is CJ's result when he says to add speed to get the thinner cut.

TOI relies more on deflection than swerve because of the small off center cueing. You won't see as much swerve as you do using side spin.

TOI doesn't change physics, but it is magical sometimes. :grin-square: I better run before I get flamed!

Best,
Mike

Going through the TOI training teaches the player to develop the "feel for the game/pocket" that all great players possess. The more precise the player's stroke and cue ball contact the less TOI they will need to get the same results.

I am at a level that allows me to mentally control the deflection, speed, spin, and swerve, however, this is getting into the subconscious level (the zone) and can't be taught right away. The human mind is influenced by habit, these habits can clearly be seen by how we lead our life and how quickly we can process new information

Positive habits develop positive mental outcomes, negative habits bring about frustration, disappointment, envy, and a multitude of other destructive emotions. We can't control our feelings and emotions, however, we can control our attitude, providing confidence and good will in our lives.

Learning to use TOI is like learning to read, the student first has to learn the A,B,C's then go through a process to develop a system for spelling and reading. After dedicated practice they will soon be able to read by allowing the subconscious to take control......at this level reading becomes enjoyable, and a positive lifetime habit.

The issue with trying to understand TOI before experiencing it is the player's own mind will often get in the way. It's no coincidence that the critics of TOI are the same ones that have not went through the necessary training.

I can't imagine how brutal it must be to play this great game for years without developing and improving. The only choice at this point is to discontinue playing entirely and deal with the disappointment elsewhere.

This brings to mind a humorous image of a baby refusing to learn to walk until they understand all the components. Even funnier is to imagine that same baby, fully grown, crawling to work at the "daycare" in the morning.