Taiwan TOI

[ENGLISH!]

When I first read about TOI, I wondered what was the difference. After weeks of playing with it and learning physically what it can do, I understood I was avoiding inside english as much as possible.

I didn't get caught up in why something wasn't going to play out with a discussion when it was a physical action. All sports that use a ball have a reliance on spin to change the direction of a ball. TOI goes against intuitive thinking because it adds the idea of spin, but is more of a knuckleball in its application.

Best,
Mike

Hi Mike,

Interesting that you chose 'knuckleball'.

I said somewhere that with TOI it's sort of like throwing the ball to a knuckleball sized glove(pocket) rather than throwing to the much smaller fast ball glove.

So we have a vering cue ball that sends a fastball to a knuckleball 'glove' & it, the cue ball, 'floats' like a knuckleball.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

 

[CJ Wiley]

I would rather master one type shot, than attempt to master all of them

When I first read about TOI, I wondered what was the difference. After weeks of playing with it and learning physically what it can do, I understood I was avoiding inside english as much as possible.

I didn't get caught up in why something wasn't going to play out with a discussion when it was a physical action. All sports that use a ball have a reliance on spin to change the direction of a ball. TOI goes against intuitive thinking because it adds the idea of spin, but is more of a knuckleball in its application.

Best,
Mike

Yes, I agree, every pool ball we hit has some spin, even when we try to hit "center ball". I try not to think of spinning the ball, because the stroke is influenced by thought.

The key is to learn a consistent shot pattern that we can rely on.

Trying to hit "whatever the shot requires," may sound good, however, under real competitive situations it will not stand up against someone hitting a consistent TOI, or TOO. Using a variety of speeds, spins and systems overloads the mind AND body.

I would rather master one type shot, than attempt to master all of them. Of course I can slow-roll balls, and hit any variety of spins, however, this index of shots come from the TOI position.

This position is just "touch/hair" to the inside, although to learn the technique I have the most success teaching players to use more than necessary (until their strokes are more precise and accurate).

 

[duckie]

On the shot below, 10 in the side, there is only one line into the pocket that works and it is also a speed dependent shot.

Try all this fancy stuff on this shot. There is no margin of error on this shot. None, zip, nana,,,,,,you either hit or you don't.

This is also a good example of how the pocket opening gets smaller as the OB entry angle goes away from the center pocket angle.

Yep center pocket angle and OB entry angle are two different things.

 

[ENGLISH!]

On the shot below, 10 in the side, there is only one line into the pocket that works and it is also a speed dependent shot.

Try all this fancy stuff on this shot. There is no margin of error on this shot. None, zip, nana,,,,,,you either hit or you don't.

This is also a good example of how the pocket opening gets smaller as the OB entry angle goes away from the center pocket angle.

Yep center pocket angle and OB entry angle are two different things.

Greg,

Are you referring to the 10 ball in the side?

If so, it can be shot with TOI but I'd probably shoot it with a bit of high left english. But... it would actually depend on where I want the cue ball to go.

Best 2 You,
Rick

PS Everyone shoots differently & will shoot the way that they are comfortable shooting. If you're not comfortable with english or TOI, that does not mean that others are not. Even if you could come up with a shot that could not be shot with those methods, I would NOT give up on those methods because of a shot that would rarely if ever come up. I hope you can see my points.

 

[Banks]

This is very well stated - isn't it ironic that those that argue about TOI the most are the same ones that thing TOI is "inside english".

Touch Of Inside isn't inside? You even make up new meanings for things that you already made up. Impressive.

 

[one stroke]

Greg,

Are you referring to the 10 ball in the side?

If so, it can be shot with TOI but I'd probably shoot it with a bit of high left english. But... it would actually depend on where I want the cue ball to go.

Best 2 You,
Rick

PS Everyone shoots differently & will shoot the way that they are comfortable shooting. If you're not comfortable with english or TOI, that does not mean that others are not. Even if you could come up with a shot that could not be shot with those methods, I would NOT give up on those methods because of a shot that would rarely if ever come up. I hope you can see my points.

Coming from my snooker days I would shoot this shot with high centerball , snooker players are masters of centerball ,, it's a big reason why they can transition to pool much better than a pool player can transition to snooker ,, spin even in its most minute form can be the kiss of death for a snooker player

 

[ENGLISH!]

Coming from my snooker days I would shoot this shot with high centerball , snooker players are masters of centerball ,, it's a big reason why they can transition to pool much better than a pool player can transition to snooker ,, spin even in its most minute form can be the kiss of death for a snooker player

I don't watch much snooker at all but even I have seen players juice the ball up with spin when need be.

Maybe there are shots where spin would be The Kiss from The Mafia Princess but you make it sound universally so.

What about our other conversation? Were you comparing CJ to Dr. Dave or someone else.

 

[one stroke]

I don't watch much snooker at all but even I have seen players juice the ball up with spin when need be.

Maybe there are shots where spin would be The Kiss from The Mafia Princess but you make it sound universally so.

What about our other conversation? Were you comparing CJ to Dr. Dave or someone else.

Don't get me wrong yes when the balls are closer to the pocket you can juice up the cue , but in long distance even a touch of spin could end in disaster , they will yes try to hold a ball on occasion with some inside or outside to counteract cling , or what we call force follow , Allison and Karen are great examples , but from what I've seen from Kelly is she's the one who's incorporated the spin game and power stroke beautifuly into her game ,
The coment was not nessasaraly for Dave but yes I think he's a liitle more inclined to be open minded

1

 

[ENGLISH!]

Don't get me wrong yes when the balls are closer to the pocket you can juice up the cue , but in long distance even a touch of spin could end in disaster , they will yes try to hold a ball on occasion with some inside or outside to counteract cling , or what we call force follow , Allison and Karen are great examples , but from what I've seen from Kelly is she's the one who's incorporated the spin game and power stroke beautifuly into her game ,
The coment was not nessasaraly for Dave but yes I think he's a liitle more inclined to be open minded

1

Open minded regarding what? He should be locked in by the science.

Personally I wish Dr. Dave would give the science without editorialising his conclusions & opinions. But that's just me & how I'd like my 'science'.

It's sort of like the point I tried to make with Duckie/Greg.

Who would 'we' trust regarding stock car racing Richard Petty of Danika Patrick.

If I want to know about the science of something pool related I'd ask Dr. Dave.

If I want to know about what works on the table TOI related I'd ask CJ.

I hope you see my point.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

This position is just "touch/hair" to the inside, although to learn the technique I have the most success teaching players to use more than necessary (until their strokes are more precise and accurate).

I like this part of TOI - greater precision in tip placement and pocketing may be the best and quickest way to elevate your game, but I think it gets less attention than it deserves. TOI seems like an effective precision training tool for those who like it.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

IJust look at how much room or distance there is for error to the left for TOI in your diagram

& then look at the room or distance for error to the left for center ball in your diagram.

I think you should look at it - and really try to think about what it says.

The room for error is identical for both ways of shooting the shot - and it's in exactly the same place for both. A cueing error will send the OB to the same place for both, as shown by the dotted yellow arrows for both.

"Aiming with squirt" doesn't eliminate, reduce or change in any way the consequences of cueing errors. It just adds squirt to the aiming equation.*

pj
chgo

*P.S. However, focusing on a "touch of inside" likely improves your cueing accuracy, and focusing on aiming at a specific part of the pocket definitely improves your pocketing accuracy, and these are powerful improvements by themselves.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think you should look at it - and really try to think about what it says.

The room for error is identical for both ways of shooting the shot - and it's in exactly the same place for both. A cueing error will send the OB to the same place for both, as shown by the dotted yellow arrows for both.

"Aiming with squirt" doesn't eliminate, reduce or change in any way the consequences of cueing errors. It just adds squirt to the aiming equation.*

pj
chgo

*P.S. However, focusing on a "touch of inside" likely improves your cueing accuracy, and focusing on aiming at a specific part of the pocket definitely improves your pocketing accuracy, and these are powerful improvements by themselves.

Patrick,

I've been focusing on very specific parts of the cue ball & specific parts of the pocket for more than 4.5 decades as I've used english for all that time. TOI has not improved my focus nor my stroke.

We ALL know how wide the pocket really is.

Go look at the TWO different amounts, distances, from each 'AIM' line to the LEFT point.

Believe me CJ or I or any decent player is NOT going to cross over & hit the other side of the cue ball.

Maybe... maybe... we'll hit actual center IF we're using the tiniest amount of inside tip placement & IF we're cueing hard, but not likely.

But if so, that means that the OB is going straight down the line of the initial AIM line into the pocket OR... it's going left.

The only way it misses is IF we over do the inside by a rather large amount.

I will say that I have done that, BUT... it was BEFORE I real-eyesed just how little to the inside one needs to go for certain shots.

In fact, I am still missing SOME of the very long very thin cuts that are far from the pocket by overdoing it just a tad & overcutting the ball. I think CJ & I have fixed that just yesterday. It was me not dialing in my LD shaft to the proper alignment. I was going CTE & probably should have been going C to the 1/4 line.

You suggest that CJ cease & desist but there is absolutely no reason for him to do so. Maybe you should read the many many testimonials that have been sent to CJ.

On the table, it works & it works better because it's easier to implement as it basically takes specific aiming out of the picture when one gets to aligning just to the CTC & CTE line ( I added C to 1/4 line due to the LD shaft.) & creating the angle with one's tip placement

Spend 3 hours with nothing but TOI & forget what you 'know'.

As for your diagram, I would 'aim' outside the pocket & use TOI as I know that I'm not going hit center cue ball but CJ suggests inside the pocket for the sake of safety just in case.

Can one aim to miss the pocket & still pocket the ball with a center cue ball hit? The answer is no.

That's how wide one can 'make' the pocket with TOI.

Try it. You might like it. BUT you'll have to try it first before you can like it. If you don't try it you'll never really KNOW.

 

[HelloBaby-]

Patrick,

I've been focusing on very specific parts of the cue ball & specific parts of the pocket for more than 4.5 decades as I've used english for all that time. TOI has not improved my focus nor my stroke.

We ALL know how wide the pocket really is.

Go look at the TWO different amounts, distances, from each 'AIM' line to the LEFT point.

Believe me CJ or I or any decent player is NOT going to cross over & hit the other side of the cue ball.

Maybe... maybe... we'll hit actual center IF we're using the tiniest amount of inside tip placement & IF we're cueing hard, but not likely.

But if so, that means that the OB is going straight down the line of the initial AIM line into the pocket OR... it's going left.

The only way it misses is IF we over do the inside by a rather large amount.

I will say that I have done that, BUT... it was BEFORE I real-eyesed just how little to the inside one needs to go for certain shots.

In fact, I am still missing SOME of the very long very thin cuts that are far from the pocket by overdoing it just a tad & overcutting the ball. I think CJ & I have fixed that just yesterday. It was me not dialing in my LD shaft to the proper alignment. I was going CTE & probably should have been going C to the 1/4 line.

You suggest that CJ cease & desist but there is absolutely no reason for him to do so. Maybe you should read the many many testimonials that have been sent to CJ.

On the table, it works & it works better because it's easier to implement as it basically takes specific aiming out of the picture when one gets to aligning just to the CTC & CTE line ( I added C to 1/4 line due to the LD shaft.) & creating the angle with one's tip placement

Spend 3 hours with nothing but TOI & forget what you 'know'.

As for your diagram, I would 'aim' outside the pocket & use TOI as I know that I'm not going hit center cue ball but CJ suggests inside the pocket for the sake of safety just in case.

Can one aim to miss the pocket & still pocket the ball with a center cue ball hit? The answer is no.

That's how wide one can 'make' the pocket with TOI.

Try it. You might like it. BUT you'll have to try it first before you can like it. If you don't try it you'll never really KNOW.

Using the same principle. If you aim for the center pocket using center ball. Maybe maybe you will hit a "touch" off, inside or outside, and you still pocket the ball to the left or right of the pocket. You only miss if you hit the cb way out of center.
If you can hit the cb nearly perfectly where you intended to do, then what's the difference ?
Throwing the ob in the hole is another problem, I'm only talking about tip precision here.
I also agree with Patrick about seeing the mistake. any decent player can tell what's wrong with the shot, not because of using center or english that will make that easier. it could be because of the tip precision, jump-up on the shot, unstable bridge hand, wrong aiming, wrong compensation,etc...
But I do agree that beginner player should focus on one thing at a time, and that's where TOI comes in handy.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Go look at the TWO different amounts, distances, from each 'AIM' line to the LEFT point.

The "aim" line is the wrong starting point. That's not what you're trying to hit. In both cases you're trying to hit the "target" - that's what you're really aiming at. The "target" is what you'll hit if you stroke accurately - and if you stroke poorly, the "target" is what you'll miss, not the "aim" line. And you'll miss to the right or left of the "target", just like aiming with center ball.

You're confused by TOI's unorthodox use of the word "aim" to describe where the OB would go if not for squirt. That's not real and neither is this idea of a bigger margin of error because you "aim" with squirt.

I don't think you'll really try to understand this, but maybe it'll help others.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

Developing a Feel (Touch) for the Pocket - How's This Learned???

What reduces the stress and over thinking is when we discover that any shot can be executed with the Touch of Inside, instead of center or outside. This immediately cuts down on the choices we have to make (I'm referring to shot making, when english is needed it can be applied as necessary), and gives us a primary (master) shot.

The positive side effect is our minds start to become aligned with what's really happening with the cue ball on each shot. Players that use outside don't usually realize that the cue ball is deflecting in towards the object ball before spinning back on the original line and center ball hitters aren't aware that some of their shots are deflecting slightly causing inconsistency.

TOI creates a situation where we FEEL the cue ball slightly over-cut the object ball every shot using SPEED, not spin. When this becomes "downloaded" into our subconscious something really cool happens, we begin to control how the cue ball reacts mentally by touch, not just by vision.

When we cue the ball to the inside and are hitting the center of the pocket we know for sure we're aligned to the inside of the pocket. (this is how I calibrate the TOI Shot)

The amount of feel and touch this creates is a positive attribute and, in my opinion, the key to great shot making.

The greatest shot makers don't have the best eye sight, they have the best "feel for the pocket"...... The TOI taught me how to develop this skill and I"m simply passing it on to those who want to discover it as well.

'The Game is My Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

TOI without understanding the '3 Part Pocket System' won't be wise, they go together

Using the same principle. If you aim for the center pocket using center ball. Maybe maybe you will hit a "touch" off, inside or outside, and you still pocket the ball to the left or right of the pocket. You only miss if you hit the cb way out of center.
If you can hit the cb nearly perfectly where you intended to do, then what's the difference ?
Throwing the ob in the hole is another problem, I'm only talking about tip precision here.
I also agree with Patrick about seeing the mistake. any decent player can tell what's wrong with the shot, not because of using center or english that will make that easier. it could be because of the tip precision, jump-up on the shot, unstable bridge hand, wrong aiming, wrong compensation,etc...
But I do agree that beginner player should focus on one thing at a time, and that's where TOI comes in handy.

The TOI is not for beginners, they should perfect their stroking abilities before getting into advanced techniques.

Set up a spot shot and tell me you can see where the center of the pocket is.

The fact is we can't see where the center is, however, we can develop a FEEL for where the inside of the pocket is. On longer shots off the end rail I'm aligned an inch to the inside (outside) of the pocket, because I know when I accelerate it's going to hit one of the three parts of the pocket.

Using TOI without understanding the '3 Part Pocket System' won't be wise, they go together as explained in the DVD. Here's a LINK to an explanation of the '3 Part Pocket System'.

 

[Mikjary]

Using the same principle. If you aim for the center pocket using center ball. Maybe maybe you will hit a "touch" off, inside or outside, and you still pocket the ball to the left or right of the pocket. You only miss if you hit the cb way out of center.
If you can hit the cb nearly perfectly where you intended to do, then what's the difference ?
Throwing the ob in the hole is another problem, I'm only talking about tip precision here.
I also agree with Patrick about seeing the mistake. any decent player can tell what's wrong with the shot, not because of using center or english that will make that easier. it could be because of the tip precision, jump-up on the shot, unstable bridge hand, wrong aiming, wrong compensation,etc...
But I do agree that beginner player should focus on one thing at a time, and that's where TOI comes in handy.

On the highlighted comment above (emphasis mine), what would the better, more experienced player do to correct the error(s)? And after that correction, the next different error(s)? This is supposing they know how to correct each error. The answer is..."whatever it takes", or "a whole list of things".

This is not the same idea as a TOI correction for a shot result other than hitting center pocket. This is correcting stroke flaws. The premise for TOI corrections is not for stroking errors. It is for speed adjustment and/or incorrect tip placement for table conditions.

TOI is not going to fix a faulty stroke other than learning to be more devoted to hitting a smaller area on the cue ball than a player has before using TOI, as previously noted. The compensation is known for not hitting a certain spot on the pocket. And this compensation is only one of two things. Not a laundry list of stroke problems and/or then looking at improper tip placement on the cue ball.

If a player can't make the correct adjustment while using TOI, the problem other than mental, is a faulty stroke. With a center ball mistake, you move either left or right on the cue ball. If you make the next shot with center ball, but not on the pocket part you aimed at, you move again. You cut the ball more, or less, and double check your alignment as you get down.

Now you've cut the ball thicker or thinner, moved your alignment, cued with more spin or less, double checked you're hitting center, left or right correctly. How long did that take? Of course, this is hypothetical, but we go through these contortions and add a large distraction to our game.

When I use TOI, I make only one of two adjustments. When I can't use TOI on a shot, I have to make more real time adjustments than my pool player's mind should have to make.

This is just another way of looking at things. More deflection or speed as the adjustment, or quite a bit more different adjustments with center ball. BTW, I use center ball when I need it, along with inside and outside spin. TOI is a tool on certain shots for me. If I don't need it, I don't use it...like rolling the cue ball and sinking a 10 ball in the side with center cue ball. :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

The "aim" line is the wrong starting point. That's not what you're trying to hit. In both cases you're trying to hit the "target" - that's what you're really aiming at. The "target" is what you'll hit if you stroke accurately - and if you stroke poorly, the "target" is what you'll miss, not the "aim" line. And you'll miss to the right or left of the "target", just like aiming with center ball.

You're confused by TOI's unorthodox use of the word "aim" to describe where the OB would go if not for squirt. That's not real and neither is this idea of a bigger margin of error because you "aim" with squirt.

I don't think you'll really try to understand this, but maybe it'll help others.

pj
chgo

No, you're wrong...IMHO.

The only thing that we can control is the cue ball with the tip on the end of the stick.

We're NOT sending the Cue Ball to the pocket. So... we're NOT aiming at the pocket & the pocket is not really the target.

We're sending the cue ball to the object ball or more precisely to a point on the object ball. That is the target & the aimpoint & the aim line.

IF the shot to that point along that aim line is executed properly then the OB exits the table surface by dropping into the pocket.

I shoot many many many shots without ever taking even one direct look at the pocket.

How can I aim at what I do not ever look at?

I don't expect that you are capable of understanding this but maybe this will help others.




Addendum:

Picture the old Carnival Game where one throws balls at a disc to drop a girl in a bathing suit into a tank of water.

The goal is to drop the girl into the tank of water but the disc is the target.

One does not aim at the girl. One 'aims' at the disc... which is the target.

One does not aim at the pocket. One 'aims' at the point on the object ball...which is the target.

The pocket is the goal not the target. We aim at the target.

The point on the object ball is the target.

 

[Mikjary]

Hi Mike,

Interesting that you chose 'knuckleball'.

I said somewhere that with TOI it's sort of like throwing the ball to a knuckleball sized glove(pocket) rather than throwing to the much smaller fast ball glove.

So we have a vering cue ball that sends a fastball to a knuckleball 'glove' & it, the cue ball, 'floats' like a knuckleball.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

The first time I saw a player float the cue ball, it cost me money. :grin: I hadn't been playing long enough to understand, but my mind told me the cue ball was doing something that didn't compute.

Some guys would try and impress me drawing the cue ball 9 rails or force follow, making the cue ball turn corners. But, the guys who barely moved the cue ball with very little spin, just didn't make sense. Learned the hard way!

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

On the highlighted comment above (emphasis mine), what would the better, more experienced player do to correct the error(s)? And after that correction, the next different error(s)? This is supposing they know how to correct each error. The answer is..."whatever it takes", or "a whole list of things".

This is not the same idea as a TOI correction for a shot result other than hitting center pocket. This is correcting stroke flaws. The premise for TOI corrections is not for stroking errors. It is for speed adjustment and/or incorrect tip placement for table conditions.

TOI is not going to fix a faulty stroke other than learning to be more devoted to hitting a smaller area on the cue ball than a player has before using TOI, as previously noted. The compensation is known for not hitting a certain spot on the pocket. And this compensation is only one of two things. Not a laundry list of stroke problems and/or then looking at improper tip placement on the cue ball.

If a player can't make the correct adjustment while using TOI, the problem other than mental, is a faulty stroke. With a center ball mistake, you move either left or right on the cue ball. If you make the next shot with center ball, but not on the pocket part you aimed at, you move again. You cut the ball more, or less, and double check your alignment as you get down.

Now you've cut the ball thicker or thinner, moved your alignment, cued with more spin or less, double checked you're hitting center, left or right correctly. How long did that take? Of course, this is hypothetical, but we go through these contortions and add a large distraction to our game.

When I use TOI, I make only one of two adjustments. When I can't use TOI on a shot, I have to make more real time adjustments than my pool player's mind should have to make.

This is just another way of looking at things. More deflection or speed as the adjustment, or quite a bit more different adjustments with center ball. BTW, I use center ball when I need it, along with inside and outside spin. TOI is a tool on certain shots for me. If I don't need it, I don't use it...like rolling the cue ball and sinking a 10 ball in the side with center cue ball. :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

:thumbup2:Good Post