Taiwan TOI

[CJ Wiley]

we steered the big table players to the bar table and the bar table players to 9' s

The first time I saw a player float the cue ball, it cost me money. :grin: I hadn't been playing long enough to understand, but my mind told me the cue ball was doing something that didn't compute.

Some guys would try and impress me drawing the cue ball 9 rails or force follow, making the cue ball turn corners. But, the guys who barely moved the cue ball with very little spin, just didn't make sense. Learned the hard way!

Best,
Mike

It was really cool to see this being performed with the "Big Ball" on a bar table. Omaha John always said he was "floating" it around, or forcing it, rather than rolling it (like big table players tried to do). "Surfer Rod" was also a master with the Big Ball, especially playing 8 Ball....he could beat most local players using a broom stick for a cue.

We played really well with the Big Ball, and could even play with it on a 9' table. This was one of the traps we used - my game was the same on every table with every size ball (even the metal flake "mud ball") so we steered the big table players to the bar table and the bar table players towards the heavier cue balls (or both if possible).

I played a guy they called "Seattle Mike" in Tulsa one time with the Big Ball on a 9' table. He thought it was "the nutz" for him, he soon found out this was a big mistake. I used a 60 inch cue to play with the Big Ball and moved it around easily using TOI.

You've mentioned Dave Yeager a few time and I honestly wouldn't have wanted to play him with the Big Ball on a 9' table in the 80s.

He would have been dangerous, don't you think so?

 

[LAMas]

Say that the most one's stroke is off is 1/2 tip maximum or 1/4 of a tip to the right of center and 1/4 tip to the left of center. Would not the resulting angular error on a straight in shot be less than if one started with a touch of inside (TOI) or a touch of outside (TOO)?

On a sphere or ball, the center of the ball or the point closest to your eye/s is relatively flat as is the center of the cue tip when compared to the sides to the right or left of center. If one can imagine that the ball was made up of tiny facets, with the center facet at 0 degrees, the angle of each facet would become larger and larger until the facet at the edge of the ball would be 90 degrees or perpendicular to the center facet of the ball.

Say that the first facet to the left or right of center (0 degree) is 5 degrees and the second facet is 10 degrees.

Would it not be more accurate to am at the center of the ball, at 0 degree, and risk a 5 degree error to the right or left of center than to start at the 5 degree facet (TOI or TOO) and risk hitting the 10 degree facet to the outside?

As with the mass of the front of the shaft affecting the resulting deflection, one learns to compensate to make the shot at hand....so too with TOI or TOO.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Please don't listen to people saying TOI is about fixing stoking errors, it's not.

Say that the most one's stroke is off is 1/2 tip maximum or 1/4 of a tip to the right of center and 1/4 tip to the left of center. Would not the resulting angular error on a straight in shot be less than if one started with a touch of inside (TOI) or a touch of outside (TOO)?

On a sphere or ball, the center of the ball or the point closest to your eye/s is relatively flat as is the center of the cue tip when compared to the sides to the right or left of center. If one can imagine that the ball was made up of tiny facets, with the center facet at 0 degrees, the angle of each facet would become larger and larger until the facet at the edge of the ball would be 90 degrees or perpendicular to the center facet of the ball.

Say that the first facet to the left or right of center (0 degree) is 5 degrees and the second facet is 10 degrees.

Would it not be more accurate to am at the center of the ball, at 0 degree, and risk a 5 degree error to the right or left of center than to start at the 5 degree facet (TOI or TOO) and risk hitting the 10 degree facet to the outside?

As with the mass of the front of the shaft affecting the resulting deflection, one learns to compensate to make the shot at hand....so too with TOI or TOO.

Please don't listen to people saying TOI is about fixing stoking errors, it's not. It's also NOT inside english, if you want the video I'll send it to you or get you a free PPV.

For many pool players it's a natural tendency to want to spin shots in with outside "helping" English. This technique is very useful, especially if you're trying to change the natural angle of the cue ball after contact. There's another way to do this if you want to "master a shot" so you can hit the three parts of the pocket. To do this you must become more accurate and develop a "FEEL" for the pocket. This isn't any more difficult, it just requires you to simplify your Game and reduce calculations.

There are three {main} calculations you make to be accurate using "outside English," 1st) - you must judge the immediate deflection and 2nd) - you must judge how much the spin brings the cue ball "back" to it's original "shot line". 3rd) - you must decide where to hit the cue ball to accomplish the intended shot. (these calculations are related, but not necessarily connected like they are with the TOI Technique)

You will find it's necessary to hit these shots at a variety of speeds and a variety of spins to do what you need with the cue ball. This takes a LOT of different calculations because speed effects deflection AND spin. Where you hit the cue ball and how far over to get your "outside English" also effects deflection AND spin.

Over the course of hours, you will have to make numerous calculations and instinctive judgments to make every shot as planned. With the 'Touch Of Inside' system of play I am showing you how to reduce the amount of calculations and instinctive judgments considerably.

The TOI Technique shows you how to hit one "theme" of speeds, one "theme" of spins, and one "theme" of deflection. I have played many players in my life and the only concern I had was if they would play long enough. Because, even though this edge against other accomplished players may be only 1-2%, it will show up over time.

If you're cutting a ball at a "half ball" angle down the rail to the left and using "outside" (right English") you cue ball is immediately going to deflect into the object ball slightly. To overcome undercutting it you will need to spin the cue ball to make it curve back and the spin will help cut it in. This may "FEEL" like it's helping the cut, but IS IT REALLY?

You are having to hit the speed correctly, the spin correctly, the contact point (shot line) correctly and hit the cue ball precisely to do this. I'm sure you do this very well, but how about under pressure? How do you make all these calculations playing a champion player? This is where your unconscious will start to falter and break down.

You are simply over whelming yourself with these calculations and when you add pressure? I don't know, how does it effect you, do you play better or worse? How about over the course of a 5-10 hour set, do you rely on your game to get better and better or do you have "ups and downs?" With the TOI Technique I teach players how to use (as much as possible, of course there's exceptions, and less that you may think) ONE SPEED - ONE SHOT ANGLE REFERENCE (center or edge) - ONE TIP TARGET (the "Touch" of Inside).

The one thing you guard against {using TOI} is overcutting the ball, however, if you're going to miss a shot would you rather over cut it or under cut it? I don't know about you, but when I under cut a shot I feel like a "dogged it," however, when I over cut a shot I feel like I know what I need to do to correct what I did wrong.

TOI increases consistency, which strengthens confidence and makes your Game strong, reliable, and very intimidating.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Mikjary]

It was really cool to see this being performed with the "Big Ball" on a bar table. Omaha John always said he was "floating" it around, or forcing it, rather than rolling it (like big table players tried to do). "Surfer Rod" was also a master with the Big Ball, especially playing 8 Ball....he could beat most local players using a broom stick for a cue.

We played really well with the Big Ball, and could even play with it on a 9' table. This was one of the traps we used - my game was the same on every table with every size ball (even the metal flake "mud ball") so we steered the big table players to the bar table and the bar table players towards the heavier cue balls (or both if possible).

I played a guy they called "Seattle Mike" in Tulsa one time with the Big Ball on a 9' table. He thought it was "the nutz" for him, he soon found out this was a big mistake. I used a 60 inch cue to play with the Big Ball and moved it around easily using TOI.

You've mentioned Dave Yeager a few time and I honestly wouldn't have wanted to play him with the Big Ball on a 9' table in the 80s.

He would have been dangerous, don't you think so?

Dave's best game was with the big rock on a bar table. So was Bobby Cotton's. I hung with both of them and saw it first hand. Bobby won the flip and B&R a race to 6 against Tommy Spencer on a bar box. Spencer was so mad he charged Bobby and that was the end of the action that day. :grin-square:

A guy that I played against and beat regularly started hanging with Dave and tried to trap me on a 9 footer playing with the big ball. He never got out of the gate and lost two sets, 7-0, 7-0. I wasn't using TOI, but I had a good inside and stun game with the big cue ball.

Maybe that's why I picked up on TOI naturally. Another friend, Gerry Kanov has a great inside game and was always showing me stuff. He didn't call his technique TOI, but it's similar.

I played Rod in Cicero, IL some last pocket 8 ball. They had the small rock with a weight in it. I saw the similarities in his game with other top players and pulled up after a while. Tough action!

Alley Oop and a few others played like Rod. He was the toughest and everybody tried to do what he did, better than him. That never happened when Rod was on top of his game. :wink:

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

Say that the most one's stroke is off is 1/2 tip maximum or 1/4 of a tip to the right of center and 1/4 tip to the left of center. Would not the resulting angular error on a straight in shot be less than if one started with a touch of inside (TOI) or a touch of outside (TOO)?

On a sphere or ball, the center of the ball or the point closest to your eye/s is relatively flat as is the center of the cue tip when compared to the sides to the right or left of center. If one can imagine that the ball was made up of tiny facets, with the center facet at 0 degrees, the angle of each facet would become larger and larger until the facet at the edge of the ball would be 90 degrees or perpendicular to the center facet of the ball.

Say that the first facet to the left or right of center (0 degree) is 5 degrees and the second facet is 10 degrees.

Would it not be more accurate to am at the center of the ball, at 0 degree, and risk a 5 degree error to the right or left of center than to start at the 5 degree facet (TOI or TOO) and risk hitting the 10 degree facet to the outside?

As with the mass of the front of the shaft affecting the resulting deflection, one learns to compensate to make the shot at hand....so too with TOI or TOO.

Big E-
I see your thought process and look at it differently. Using TOI, a small error from what I'm trying to do with the cue ball is adjustable with speed first, then cue tip placement.

With center ball, if you hit a shot and it goes off line to the left, you have two choices. You either hit the cue ball with right spin and threw it to the left, or you hit the cue ball with left spin and cue ball squirt cut the ball thinner. Which is it?

An interesting factoid I've noticed about subconscious compensation for a cueing error is, when the mind adjusts, it can do it in two different ways. If, you aren't cutting the ball thin enough, it may add spin to throw the ball to the pocket. Or, it may add a deflecting/squirting stroke to send the cue ball away from the target and get the thinner cut. Neither way is pretty, but sometimes it gets the job done.

What think ye? :wink:

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

With center ball, if you hit a shot and it goes off line to the left, you have two choices. You either hit the cue ball with right spin and threw it to the left, or you hit the cue ball with left spin and cue ball squirt cut the ball thinner. Which is it?

Which way is the CB spinning?

Can't tell that way with TOI...

pj <- doesn't seem that complicated
chgo

 

[duckie]

With center ball, if you hit a shot and it goes off line to the left, you have two choices. You either hit the cue ball with right spin and threw it to the left, or you hit the cue ball with left spin and cue ball squirt cut the ball thinner. Which is it?

So it's not a possibility to have put the CB in the wrong spot, with center ball no side spin, to make the OB go where you want? You had to have missed becaused you put spin on it, not that your aim was off, ie where you choose to put the CB.

If someone cannot hit center ball accurately and consistently,then how can that same person hit just off center accurately and consistency?

Same shooter now how's the skill to hit off center but can't hit center?

 

[Neil]

Big E-
I see your thought process and look at it differently. Using TOI, a small error from what I'm trying to do with the cue ball is adjustable with speed first, then cue tip placement.

With center ball, if you hit a shot and it goes off line to the left, you have two choices. You either hit the cue ball with right spin and threw it to the left, or you hit the cue ball with left spin and cue ball squirt cut the ball thinner. Which is it?

An interesting factoid I've noticed about subconscious compensation for a cueing error is, when the mind adjusts, it can do it in two different ways. If, you aren't cutting the ball thin enough, it may add spin to throw the ball to the pocket. Or, it may add a deflecting/squirting stroke to send the cue ball away from the target and get the thinner cut. Neither way is pretty, but sometimes it gets the job done.

What think ye? :wink:


Best,
Mike

If you are using toi correctly, then your speed is already such that you won't have any swerve, only deflection. Adding more speed will do nothing to correct the problem. The amount of deflection is not speed adjustable, but is a constant. Adjusting farther out on the cb will only add more deflection and more spin. If you are adding more spin, you are not using toi now, but inside english.

 

[duckie]

It is truely amazing are those that knows what the subconious is doing.

Seems it me, you can not know what the subconious is doing just by the nature of what it is.

If you know what it's doing, than its not subconious.

 

[Mitchxout]

It is truely amazing are those that knows what the subconious is doing.

Seems it me, you can not know what the subconious is doing just by the nature of what it is.

If you know what it's doing, than its not subconious.

This is very true. This is why practice is important.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Alley Oop, haven't heard that name in ages

Dave's best game was with the big rock on a bar table. So was Bobby Cotton's. I hung with both of them and saw it first hand. Bobby won the flip and B&R a race to 6 against Tommy Spencer on a bar box. Spencer was so mad he charged Bobby and that was the end of the action that day. :grin-square:

A guy that I played against and beat regularly started hanging with Dave and tried to trap me on a 9 footer playing with the big ball. He never got out of the gate and lost two sets, 7-0, 7-0. I wasn't using TOI, but I had a good inside and stun game with the big cue ball.

Maybe that's why I picked up on TOI naturally. Another friend, Gerry Kanov has a great inside game and was always showing me stuff. He didn't call his technique TOI, but it's similar.

I played Rod in Cicero, IL some last pocket 8 ball. They had the small rock with a weight in it. I saw the similarities in his game with other top players and pulled up after a while. Tough action!

Alley Oop and a few others played like Rod. He was the toughest and everybody tried to do what he did, better than him. That never happened when Rod was on top of his game. :wink:

Best,
Mike

Alley Oop, haven't heard that name in ages. He steered me into a spot west of Chicago where I won about 7K. He was truly an old school player wasn't he. All those Big Ball specialists used the "floating ball" technique, big table players were lost trying to figure out how to beat them.

Did you ever play "Boston Joey," or hear about him when he was around the Cicero area? I guess the best players were Mark Jarvis, Tommy Spenser and George Michaels.

 

[Chrippa]

Creating angles is the foundation of the Game of pool. What makes the process engaging is how pocket billiards perfectly aligns to our subconscious minds - this is why I'm convinced it's the "Master Game," it teaches much more than what's on the surface level. [Geometric figures from thousands of years ago still baffle science]

What ends up happening is we discover that the TIP and the Cue connect us to the geometry of the game. We are dealing with a large rectangle, made up of two squares, and various triangles created by the cue ball and object ball paths. The Diamonds create a useful tool to reduce these angles down into "micro-versions" of the table.

The questions is "how does the straight line of the cue, connected to the spheres of the balls and also connect to the geometry of the pool table (using the Diamonds)"?

It took us 43 chapters to demonstrate and explain this relationship in the video 'Tip Banking Secrets'. What we revealed is fascinating because it unlocks the why's and how''s of creating specific angles using the TIP and the Diamonds on the table.

Once a player learns this knowledge they can incorporate it any way they choose with their own style. Pocket billiards is a very creative game, and our imaginations (the only thing we have complete control over) are vital to play our best .

Learning to tap into the part of our minds that connect us to our creativity and imagination gives us unlimited enthusiasm, and potential. Whatever someone chooses to do with this power depends on their primary goal in life. Without a primary goal our minds lack direction and produce we don't want (out of life), rather than what we do want

Once we can do this in one thing (like pool, music, art, etc) we can build a bridge to whatever we choose. This does take one element that will keep many people from taking this path.....they must make the decision, and the inability to make a decision has kept many a good man (and woman) from a healthy, prosperous and happy life.

Some good explaining here . Ask the body what parts of it that leads turning to left or right? Creation, create , created.
Learn the stopshot and apply it on both sides - look for the things that is just in front of you, or inside you - it´s very simple when you see it.

To master it, training.

Thanks

CJ

 

[Chrippa]

I would certainly not say anything this silly or uninformed. There are tremendous advantages to throwing a curve in bowling to maximize oil-pattern performance and to create more-favorable angles into the "pocket". There really isn't a good analogy to this in pool (other than the fact that masse shots in pool have similar physics to curve balls in bowling ... they also both look cool).

That would also be a silly thing to say. Again, the physics of golf ball flight is radically different from the physics of a pool shot (even though there are lots of similarities in the mental aspects and pre-shot routines of pool, bowling, and golf).

Regards,
Dave

Try think of it in 4 dimensions.

Regards

Chrippa

 

[Mitchxout]

Try think of it in 4 dimensions.

Regards

Chrippa

Please explain? :scratchhead:

 

[Mikjary]

If you are using toi correctly, then your speed is already such that you won't have any swerve, only deflection. Adding more speed will do nothing to correct the problem. The amount of deflection is not speed adjustable, but is a constant. Adjusting farther out on the cb will only add more deflection and more spin. If you are adding more spin, you are not using toi now, but inside english.

Yes, but as we all know, swerve happens. You aren't changing your angle with speed, just limiting the swerve.

As I said in other posts, speed won't always be the answer for a TOI adjustment. Cue tip placement has be changed slightly. This adds more (minimal) spin and swerve has to be recalculated.

If inside spin becomes evident, I know my tip placement is wrong and adjust accordingly. TOI is inside spin, but the key component I'm working with is the cue ball deflection. I want to get the job done with minimal spin.

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

Which way is the CB spinning?

Can't tell that way with TOI...

pj <- doesn't seem that complicated
chgo

And how do you correct for a cue ball spinning one way? Do you adjust your tip placement, head position, or alignment? What if it spins the other way on the next shot? It could happen...

A player doesn't need spin with TOI. Their results give them the feedback they need.

I only use TOI as needed and I don't need it on every shot. I just find it easier to use in cinching shots. What seems practical to one guy and strange to another is only because one of them isn't familiar with the other's discoveries.

Using and learning deflection to cinch shots is simpler than estimating spin. It doesn't change with speed, and other than a small swerve component, it's very consistent. Practice has shown this to me and I limit my spinning the cue ball unless position calls for it.

Best,
Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

And how do you correct for a cue ball spinning one way? Do you adjust your tip placement, head position, or alignment? What if it spins the other way on the next shot? It could happen...

A player doesn't need spin with TOI. Their results give them the feedback they need.

I only use TOI as needed and I don't need it on every shot. I just find it easier to use in cinching shots. What seems practical to one guy and strange to another is only because one of them isn't familiar with the other's discoveries.

Using and learning deflection to cinch shots is simpler than estimating spin. It doesn't change with speed, and other than a small swerve component, it's very consistent. Practice has shown this to me and I limit my spinning the cue ball unless position calls for it.

Best,
Mike

! ! ! :thumbup2: ! ! !

 

[Mikjary]

Alley Oop, haven't heard that name in ages. He steered me into a spot west of Chicago where I won about 7K. He was truly an old school player wasn't he. All those Big Ball specialists used the "floating ball" technique, big table players were lost trying to figure out how to beat them.

Did you ever play "Boston Joey," or hear about him when he was around the Cicero area? I guess the best players were Mark Jarvis, Tommy Spenser and George Michaels.

Never played Boston Joey, but I played Jarvis, Spencer, and Michaels.

Jarvis was a good banker, but was really erratic. From day to day, his game changed. You just had to avoid him when he played like God.

Spencer had anger issues and steered clear of me. He hit on my lady friend one night and I let him know he was the next ticket I was going to punch. :grin-square: We never locked horns other than tournaments, but he was a solid player. He had no higher gear than what he showed you. Yeager spanked him with weight in short order.

Michaels tried to sneak up on me at a bar West of Chicago. We played some last pocket eight ball with the big rock. He had a lot of trouble with his smooth big table stroke. After a few hours with him just one game ahead, his posse decided it was time to boost my playing cue when I went to the head.

I must have surprised them because as I was walking back to the table, out of the corner of my eye, I noticed a 2 piece cue leaning on the wall away from all the players in the other room. Then I realized it was MY cue!

I grabbed it, walked back to the group and unscrewed. I ended up one game stuck, paid my tab and chalked it up to experience. I guess they thought it was easier action to snatch my cue than grind it out.

Best,
Mike

 

[Chrippa]

Try think of it in 4 dimensions.

Regards

Chrippa

Divide the cueball in 4 pieces, attached the goal and the incoming target.
Up, down, left, right - North - South, East - West. Navigate.

Think stopshot, how do you put forward, botton on it? And pivot the picture by 90 degrees.
Can you master the "stopshot" with forward and bottom you will master all sides. Vertically and horizontally - ask the questions and your will be answered.

At this point I feel that this explanation holds all of it but I know I can explain better.... I´m working on it.

Look at my other posts and connect them.

Think of a cylinder instead of a ball when going down - vertically in that line of aim, and the n see it horizontally. You will feel the connection, what is feel?

Please take the time to let it sink in, fall down and do please give me more questions if you feel like it. When you put a puzzle in order you know the puzzle is "hole", when you see it you let the pieces "fall" in to the right place.

Regards

Chrippa

 

[Mikjary]

So it's not a possibility to have put the CB in the wrong spot, with center ball no side spin, to make the OB go where you want? You had to have missed becaused you put spin on it, not that your aim was off, ie where you choose to put the CB.

If someone cannot hit center ball accurately and consistently,then how can that same person hit just off center accurately and consistency?

Same shooter now how's the skill to hit off center but can't hit center?

In the example you quoted, I was making a point about subconscious compensation for a flawed stroke. Not what the shooter does consciously with their stroke. I probably could have clarified that better.

To me, I can hit center ball well. I've never had a problem with that. I hit side spin fine, too. I hit TOI alright, I guess.

With TOI, I just have to look at where the ball hits on the pocket to make my adjustment. Not what spin is on the cue ball AND where it hits on the pocket to start investigating my problem. Just a different way to look at using the fewest moving parts.

Change is always resisted at first. I change my mind as slow as anybody else. It took weeks before I was able to accept the change with TOI because I played mainly outside and center ball. I just learned it and put another tool in the tool box.

I still play outside and center ball. But, when that TOI shot comes up and I get that tough pose, it's worth all my past efforts.

If it's not for you, maybe you're right and I'm wrong. Time will tell.

Best,
Mike