Mike, I don't doubt that the best rotation players prevail on both 7' and 9' tables.
Lou Figueroa
US Open 10 ball & 8 ball is Back!
- Thread starter tduncan
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Mike, I don't doubt that the best rotation players prevail on both 7' and 9' tables.
Lou Figueroa
I don't think it's inconceivable..
I just think that CSI already puts on the biggest bar box tourney of the year that's about to start and I don't think that taking a prestigious tourney like the US Open and making it a bar box tourney is good for the sport.
At the least call it the tenball bar table us open.
Jaden
So you think its inconceivable amateur players who have enough interest in pool to fly to Vegas for week may find seeing the best players play on the same tables they do more interesting than tables many of them don't even have access to?
As for marketing I agree. I'm not a marketing guy. They cost money. So to me the low hanging fruit is seven foot tables. I have little input on what CSI does so what I think doesnt really matter anymore than anyone else I just happen to agree with this decision. Seems simple to me.
There are many parts of the country where you have to go pretty far out of the way to even find a nine foot table. Then you have this huge infrastructure of bar tables and we have just ignored that trying to push the same rock up the same hill and failing.
Here is a data point to consider:
Top 10 videos on the TAR YouTube channel over the course of its lifetime:
The two leaders by a big margin are bar table. Five of the top ten are bar table. Two are not even matches. Only one is a rotation game on a nine foot table.
Personally I like big table pool more than bar tables. I spent years trying to grow interest in big table pro pool. My experience tells me that its just not there. Maybe it isnt for bar table either but I don't think its crazy to try to something else.
I just think that CSI already puts on the biggest bar box tourney of the year that's about to start and I don't think that taking a prestigious tourney like the US Open and making it a bar box tourney is good for the sport.
At the least call it the tenball bar table us open.
Jaden
I am going to make one more observation about bar tables.
There's only one 7' Diamond (blue label) here in town and it's the challenge table at a local bar. Part of getting ready for Reno has involved me spending A LOT more time on in the last couple of weeks. Because of that, I've seen some really good players transition between the 9' and 7' tables effortlessly and some others really struggle on the smaller, more crowded table.
I am sure pro players make that transition effortlessly but I'm willing to bet that there are lots of player at lower skill levels who are used to moving the cue ball around a lot and don't play with quite as much precision who struggle a bit more.
For my part, I was getting pretty comfortable on 9' tables and I'm not as precise as I should have been and the last couple of weeks really showed that. After two weeks on that smaller table I played in another tournament last night on 9' tables and I believe my accuracy with respect to cue ball position did go up. That's actually the first time I have ever won a tournament. (granted, it was scotch doubles and my partner was a pro)
My point is that people like to dismiss bar tables but I think that's a mistake. It is a different challenge for some players. Granted, that may only be less experienced players but I think the challenge is worthwhile.
There's only one 7' Diamond (blue label) here in town and it's the challenge table at a local bar. Part of getting ready for Reno has involved me spending A LOT more time on in the last couple of weeks. Because of that, I've seen some really good players transition between the 9' and 7' tables effortlessly and some others really struggle on the smaller, more crowded table.
I am sure pro players make that transition effortlessly but I'm willing to bet that there are lots of player at lower skill levels who are used to moving the cue ball around a lot and don't play with quite as much precision who struggle a bit more.
For my part, I was getting pretty comfortable on 9' tables and I'm not as precise as I should have been and the last couple of weeks really showed that. After two weeks on that smaller table I played in another tournament last night on 9' tables and I believe my accuracy with respect to cue ball position did go up. That's actually the first time I have ever won a tournament. (granted, it was scotch doubles and my partner was a pro)
My point is that people like to dismiss bar tables but I think that's a mistake. It is a different challenge for some players. Granted, that may only be less experienced players but I think the challenge is worthwhile.
I play in a league on 9' tables. Most leagues in NYC are on 9' tables.
I'm glad to hear that. The analysis goes further. The "distance" between a top pro and a short stop stays about the same.
The predicted score in a race to 100 between Shane let's say Jayson Shaw stays about the same. As does the predicted score between Shaw and Deuel.
You don't find the Glenn Atwells and the Stan Tourangeau's jumping way ahead of where they are in the overall scheme of things.
I'm not saying 7' tables are ideal. But this would be a good time for many of us to broaden our perspectives a bit.
If three thirds of the top US players buy into these tournaments (rather than two thirds), we will all be better off.
I hear people saying league players can relate to this and will
Show up to watch. I don't believe that. If league players were really interested in professional pool they would watch even when played on a 9 footer. I can tell you this, if Shane and Earl came to my town to put on a exhibition on a bar box, it wouldn't interest our league players!!! They would rather have a beer and watch a APA skill level 4 play a skill level 5!!!!
Show up to watch. I don't believe that. If league players were really interested in professional pool they would watch even when played on a 9 footer. I can tell you this, if Shane and Earl came to my town to put on a exhibition on a bar box, it wouldn't interest our league players!!! They would rather have a beer and watch a APA skill level 4 play a skill level 5!!!!
Like I said earlier I agree on the name thing.
From what little I know a big table open event wasn't even on the table. That doesn't mean it wasnt just that I didnt hear about it. Which if that was the case means to me it was down to another small invitational like last year or what we have this year.
I supported the invitational idea last year as at that time in pool I thought it made sense. The execution left something to be desired but I liked the idea. I think the way things are now an open makes sense as there as a drastic need for open events in the U.S. of any kind. I also think its a reasonable idea to try the small tables. So doing a small table open over a big table invitational is IMO better for what pool in the U.S. needs today.
If the big sticking point is the name thats a minor point to me personally as long as SOME event gets done.
So you think its inconceivable amateur players who have enough interest in pool to fly to Vegas for week may find seeing the best players play on the same tables they do more interesting than tables many of them don't even have access to?
As for marketing I agree. I'm not a marketing guy. They cost money. So to me the low hanging fruit is seven foot tables. I have little input on what CSI does so what I think doesnt really matter anymore than anyone else I just happen to agree with this decision. Seems simple to me.
There are many parts of the country where you have to go pretty far out of the way to even find a nine foot table. Then you have this huge infrastructure of bar tables and we have just ignored that trying to push the same rock up the same hill and failing.
Here is a data point to consider:
Top 10 videos on the TAR YouTube channel over the course of its lifetime:
The two leaders by a big margin are bar table. Five of the top ten are bar table. Two are not even matches. Only one is a rotation game on a nine foot table.
Personally I like big table pool more than bar tables. I spent years trying to grow interest in big table pro pool. My experience tells me that its just not there. Maybe it isnt for bar table either but I don't think its crazy to try to something else.
WOW the numbers tell the story. The only asterisks I would add is that these views are for free. I'm probably the wrong demographic (closer to 50 than 30) but I have paid my share of TAR events but on BB the names and backstory would have to be very compelling to reach into my jeans. I'm sure the events will draw and work on any table format. The costs proposition for small tables speaks for it's self.
I was in Vegas last week and was surprised to see that the BB's got as much play as the 9's. In older towns (NY, Chicago etc) they seem to prefer 9 foot action and sometimes even 3C. In the Southwest the demographics seem to be different. Up here in Canada the Mid-West is Bar Pool Country. In the older more established Cities...not so much.
In the end I don't want to watch pros on BB. The rub is I don't matter because I'm not bankrolling event. The only vote I get is my personal participation.
Nick
You are almost surely right about Shane and Earl.
No one thinks switching to small tables is going to change things over night. Whats been done in the past does not work. Period. The end.
So that means you either quit or try something new.
If by doing these two tournaments on bar tables a hundred less people watch them it means nothing in the grand scheme of things. You have exactly what you had going in. If you get 100 less people watch and draw 150 new ones because of the change then you still dont have much but you have something we havent had in a long time and that is net growth.
It sucks that some people won't watch if its on bar tables but you know what? Some people wont watch because of who is commentating, some wont watch because its not one pocket, some because its not 14.1 and some because they don't like someone's face. It is impossible to please everyone so you try and do what you think can make an overall positive influence.
I hope CSI sticks with the small tables for the long term. Switching events every year isn't good for anyone. They are taking the heat for the move I hope they stay the course and see if it works. I think it has as good a shot as anything else.
I agree that bar tables present unique challenges, especially if the pockets are made small. I have a 7 footer in my garage that can't fit two balls in a pocket- somewhere around 4 inch pockets or a bit bigger. It is certainly more challenging than the traditional bar table with big pockets.
Having said that, if you watch Earl vs. Shane play on a 7 footer in Montana (it is on POVPOOL's youtube channel), they made the game look like a joke at times. Shane ran 8 racks of 8 ball in like 25 minutes. It was insane. However, Shane is the best player in the world and is probably the best bar table player ever. Heck, he might end up being the best player ever period.
A bit about table size.
Recently I participated (gave $300) for a Accu-Stats Make it Happen event. It was One Pocket on 10 foot tables. I just found it to be not to my liking and really distorted the traditional game.. It changed the break, the safeties, and banks. For some it was interesting I suppose. For me it was a disaster.
The Brits not wanting to confine themselves to 6x12 snooker tables have done well with English 8 ball. Im sure there are a bunch of cue aficionados in the UK that also find this unacceptable.
Change happens. Experiment is inevitable. People will get upset.
Life is hard. If youre stupid its harder.
Recently I participated (gave $300) for a Accu-Stats Make it Happen event. It was One Pocket on 10 foot tables. I just found it to be not to my liking and really distorted the traditional game.. It changed the break, the safeties, and banks. For some it was interesting I suppose. For me it was a disaster.
The Brits not wanting to confine themselves to 6x12 snooker tables have done well with English 8 ball. Im sure there are a bunch of cue aficionados in the UK that also find this unacceptable.
Change happens. Experiment is inevitable. People will get upset.
Life is hard. If youre stupid its harder.
Here is my perspective on it.
Like I've said, I'll probably go play in it. I've started to overcome some of my mental demons and have been able to compete at closer to my ability and for longer periods of late.
I'd like to try and win some titles...
If I come and win the the US Open ten ball on bar boxes, what are people going to say? That Jaden guy is a real player, or yeah, he's lucky they played it on bar boxes.
I came last year and played in the USBTC ten ball event in Reno. I still had a case of couldn't close out itus...I had a 50% bnr in both my matches and the one against one of the players from south america(that initially was supposed to be on the stream table but got changed last minute for some reason) I missed due to a skid on the case tenball while up 6-4 and ended up losing hill-hill.
Both of my matches I had 3 bnr's out of 6 breaks.
Playing like that (and not missing case tenballs) could result in me winning. There's no reason that it couldn't so my scenario here is not far fetched.
In this scenario in the back of my mind, even though I'm a big table player, I'll have to wonder if I still could have won if it was big table. I just think it takes away from the prestige of the title.
That being said, with proper marketing I think having bigger more prestigious bar table tourneys may actually generate more layman interest.
It most assuredly would show how skillful the top players really are compared to your local league players.
Let's say it is successful though, then that ends up just taking away from more of the big table events. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope I am.
I hope that this works and it helps to make pro pool successful again.
I hope it generates interest in learning who the pros are and makes people want to watch them on the big tables and the little tables.
I know that one of the big things that prevents people from enjoying to watch pool is a lack of interest in the players themselves. Get more personal and more interest will be generated.
Maybe this will help to create that personal connection. Without the right marketing and without creating that personal connection, I don't see it happening, but I've been wrong before and probably will be again.
Jaden
Like I've said, I'll probably go play in it. I've started to overcome some of my mental demons and have been able to compete at closer to my ability and for longer periods of late.
I'd like to try and win some titles...
If I come and win the the US Open ten ball on bar boxes, what are people going to say? That Jaden guy is a real player, or yeah, he's lucky they played it on bar boxes.
I came last year and played in the USBTC ten ball event in Reno. I still had a case of couldn't close out itus...I had a 50% bnr in both my matches and the one against one of the players from south america(that initially was supposed to be on the stream table but got changed last minute for some reason) I missed due to a skid on the case tenball while up 6-4 and ended up losing hill-hill.
Both of my matches I had 3 bnr's out of 6 breaks.
Playing like that (and not missing case tenballs) could result in me winning. There's no reason that it couldn't so my scenario here is not far fetched.
In this scenario in the back of my mind, even though I'm a big table player, I'll have to wonder if I still could have won if it was big table. I just think it takes away from the prestige of the title.
That being said, with proper marketing I think having bigger more prestigious bar table tourneys may actually generate more layman interest.
It most assuredly would show how skillful the top players really are compared to your local league players.
Let's say it is successful though, then that ends up just taking away from more of the big table events. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope I am.
I hope that this works and it helps to make pro pool successful again.
I hope it generates interest in learning who the pros are and makes people want to watch them on the big tables and the little tables.
I know that one of the big things that prevents people from enjoying to watch pool is a lack of interest in the players themselves. Get more personal and more interest will be generated.
Maybe this will help to create that personal connection. Without the right marketing and without creating that personal connection, I don't see it happening, but I've been wrong before and probably will be again.
Jaden
I'm a big table guy like you. I also know from traveling all over the US that you are spot on with your breakdown of big table areas and bar table areas. I was just in LA and that part of the country is very big table. Same with NYC. Go to Kansas City or Indianapolis and its different.
Something I think some here may be overlooking (not you Nick, speaking in the general sense here) is that the people CSI wants to reach are not on AZ. They don't even know it exists. So its hard to say if the move will be popular as the only feedback we see here is from the people who are traditional consumers/fans. I am one of those fans but I get the big picture they are shooting for. I also understand people saying they want nothing to do with it.
Time will tell.
JCIN making some damn good points. Quit trying to fix what's broken, and try something to at least see if it works.
I do gotta agree with Jaden, after 4 straight B&Rs, I get bored out of my skull.
Also, people who think pros should only play on 10' tables are either nuts, or employees of Diamond Billiards, because Diamond would be the only thing to see a positive in more 10ft tables.
I do gotta agree with Jaden, after 4 straight B&Rs, I get bored out of my skull.
Also, people who think pros should only play on 10' tables are either nuts, or employees of Diamond Billiards, because Diamond would be the only thing to see a positive in more 10ft tables.
The US Open One Pocket event has been running consistently since 2011.
Unless you're talking about something else.
My opinion is that if you beat the top guys on any track it means something. While the bar table narrows the gap a little between the elite and great players it still comes down to executing under pressure. Thats what makes a champion in my mind. Not the venue or equipment. Perfect example is Jeff Beckley winning a USBTC event. Jeff is friend of mine. He has been a great player for a long time. He also works full time. He beat a field with world champions in it. I disagree with anyone who takes something away from that based on table size.
As for taking away from big table events I don't see that for the simple reason its not a question of doing a big table or small table event. Its a question of doing a small table event or no event for most places I know.
The truth is the same guys are going to win over the long haul. Hopefully a few more people get interested in watching them do it.
Don't lose faith KD they do play pool outside Vegas
Here's just a small sample
2012 Eferan vs Alcano 498,974
2012 Eferan vs Toh lian Han 583,984
2012 WPC ,, the last rack. 1,024,666
2013 ultimate 10 ball championships , Eferan vs Alex P. 403,048
2013 Philippines vs Chineses Taipei. 382,322
2013 world championships. Caudron vs Kasidokostas. 483,481
Venom trick shots has over 12 mil. Views
1
Oscar is having success because he is good man with a great rep that is well earned and he busts his ass. You know this. His tournaments are on big tables because California is a big table region. If he was in the midwest he would be on bar tables and do just as well. He didn't try to fight uphill he took what he had to work with and made the best of it. I don't see CSI as doing anything different.
As for Mosconi points for small track events I get the scorn shown by some. It doesnt really matter to me as the same guys are going to be there in the end anyway. I see it as a pretty smooth marketing move by matchroom. It's February and we are talking about the cup.
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