I agree with you Lou. I think calling it the US Open just confuses people and pisses off some.
I don't know why it ended up that way but I think it would of went down a lot easier if they called it something else.
US Open 10 ball & 8 ball is Back!
- Thread starter tduncan
- Start date
I agree with you Lou. I think calling it the US Open just confuses people and pisses off some.
I don't know why it ended up that way but I think it would of went down a lot easier if they called it something else.
They already have an open 10ball event that week and the grandmaster 8ball event. Really they're just changing the names and added $8,600 to each. Which is cool… I think they shouldn't have changed the names.
Would statistics showing that table size doesn't affect the outcome change your mind about that asterisk? Or are you talking about something other than wins and losses?
There has been practically ZERO marketing..
You think that holding the US opens on Barboxes will suddenly make all those league players INTERESTED???
They don't even KNOW ABOUT them...The reason they aren't interested is that there's no marketing to them.
Hell there's no marketing of pro pool or pro level events PERIOD...
I've created more interest just by talking about the pro pool players since I started playing in league last year than pro pool promoters have in 15 years...
admittedly, CSI has done more marketing than other promoters, but still not on a level or to the people that could or would make a difference.
The problem is that we are in a catch 22, we need to have big corporate sponsors with lots of money to be able to market and truly PROMOTE pro pool, but we have to prove that it's viable or worth something before they'd be willing to risk it.
Pool has for a long time had this notion that we have to make it look easier when the exact opposite is true.
I remember watching pool on ESPN when it was on every morning and thinking, this isn't how these guys play. WHY on earth are they editing out the mistakes? EVERY other professional sport highlights the best shots and the worst shots...Not pool... no We want to show boring, methodical, perfect play.
Then you mention making the conditions tougher and people say well what about the packages, I love seeing packages. If you love seeing packages go online and watch gay porn.
I love seeing the best players play great but at least see the mistakes that they make. Who would watch golf if they didn't get to see the pros hit balls into the sand traps, the rough, miss two foot putts???? Of course they also want to see the chips for a double eagle or the 35 foot putts.
In pool, we've conspired to eliminate both of those and we're stuck with boring easy runouts over and over again.
When I was playing Mika last weekend, I had ran out from a dry break and then broke and ran out the next rack and in the very next rack Mika and I got into a safety battle and I ended up going for a semi two way where I kicked one rail into the one to make either the one or the nine in the side by caroming the one off the nine or coming from a strange angle and making the nine from a combo.
I almost made the nine but missed and Mika made an easy carom on the nine to win that rack. Guess who had people from the audience come up to him afterwards asking him about his play...It wasn't Mika, even though he ended up winning that match.
I hate to say it, but CJ may be on to something with bringing back two foul rollout. Bring back those big shots, AND the misses.
No, instead bring back 50+ percent bnrs in 10 ball, yeah that'll bring back the interest of the bangers and laymen...lol
Jaden
You think that holding the US opens on Barboxes will suddenly make all those league players INTERESTED???
They don't even KNOW ABOUT them...The reason they aren't interested is that there's no marketing to them.
Hell there's no marketing of pro pool or pro level events PERIOD...
I've created more interest just by talking about the pro pool players since I started playing in league last year than pro pool promoters have in 15 years...
admittedly, CSI has done more marketing than other promoters, but still not on a level or to the people that could or would make a difference.
The problem is that we are in a catch 22, we need to have big corporate sponsors with lots of money to be able to market and truly PROMOTE pro pool, but we have to prove that it's viable or worth something before they'd be willing to risk it.
Pool has for a long time had this notion that we have to make it look easier when the exact opposite is true.
I remember watching pool on ESPN when it was on every morning and thinking, this isn't how these guys play. WHY on earth are they editing out the mistakes? EVERY other professional sport highlights the best shots and the worst shots...Not pool... no We want to show boring, methodical, perfect play.
Then you mention making the conditions tougher and people say well what about the packages, I love seeing packages. If you love seeing packages go online and watch gay porn.
I love seeing the best players play great but at least see the mistakes that they make. Who would watch golf if they didn't get to see the pros hit balls into the sand traps, the rough, miss two foot putts???? Of course they also want to see the chips for a double eagle or the 35 foot putts.
In pool, we've conspired to eliminate both of those and we're stuck with boring easy runouts over and over again.
When I was playing Mika last weekend, I had ran out from a dry break and then broke and ran out the next rack and in the very next rack Mika and I got into a safety battle and I ended up going for a semi two way where I kicked one rail into the one to make either the one or the nine in the side by caroming the one off the nine or coming from a strange angle and making the nine from a combo.
I almost made the nine but missed and Mika made an easy carom on the nine to win that rack. Guess who had people from the audience come up to him afterwards asking him about his play...It wasn't Mika, even though he ended up winning that match.
I hate to say it, but CJ may be on to something with bringing back two foul rollout. Bring back those big shots, AND the misses.
No, instead bring back 50+ percent bnrs in 10 ball, yeah that'll bring back the interest of the bangers and laymen...lol
Jaden
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I would agree obviously that pool is falling off a cliff. But then I see what Oscar and Desiree did on the West Coast last year, all on big tables, showing tremendous growth and attendance and think it can be done. Obviously, it is a little apples to oranges as they didn't do large added money events in casinos but they certainly had support where ever they went.
I'm happy that the pros will be back in larger attendance in Vega$ this summer. That is a good thing but I have to be honest that it is disappointing that it is on bar tables. I do understand the economics and how this will work for CSI.
I can also make the assumption that this will be a Mosconi Cup point event as Ozzy said there are going to be 5 bar table events for points this year. Three of them in Reno and I'll do the math and have it so the last two are going to be in Vega$. That to me is an utter joke even if some people deem the Mosconi an exhibition event.
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Attachments
I would be interested in seeing what statistics you believe would prove that.
Lou Figueroa
It's toubling to me that 5 bar box CSI events are points events for the MC when the event is on 9 fts ,, this stinks to the high heaven , ,
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I know i don't, but if i ran any pool related event i would stay as far away as i could possibly get from the name "US Open" just to make sure that less knowledgeable people who might have any interest in my event have zero chance of getting me confused with that guy who drinks too much and has trouble paying up.
Pool is dead in the US. This recent turn of events was the bayonet to the stomach of the allready dying sport. Someone compared it to miniature golf versus the real thing and others said it's not a fair comparison. I agree it's not fair, I might actually watch the miniature golf US open....I'm serious about this, if I had trouble sleeping and turned on the TV with miniature golf on there is less of a chance that I'd switch channels than if some pool pro was playing on a barbox. I'm trying to watch the 2014 USBTC 8 ball final as I'm typing this, and I'm bored out of my skull as I'm sure were the less than 10 people in the audience. I mean there is nothing negative to say about the picture quality, nor the caliber of players that were playing, but I like POOL, not whatever this is. I can't say enough about the wonderful picture quality and the fact that it is actually free on youtube! Still I won't be able to sit through it. People say straight pool is boring to watch because it's all bunting etc.. Well compared to barbox 8 ball it's a fireworks extravaganza!
Pool on 7 foot tables is not pool at all. It's a crap shoot and one that's not even interesting to watch. I would compare pros playing on bar boxes to a philharmonic orchestra reduced to playing on milk carton ukuleles and only performing Nikki Minaj and Justin Bieber songs. So much of a pros skills are taken away, and he or she is reduced to being on par with the regular A players in many aspects of the game. They may still have the edge, but it is more in the experience in high level competition, not actual shotmaking etc.
Don't worry though. There will always be the Asian pool scene and of course the Eurotour. Nobody in their right mind would try something like this here. And then there is snooker. Thank God for the insanely conservative Brits. For once their innate sense of nostalgia and refusal to change anything comes in handy, as Barry Hearn found out when he tried to introduce '"Power snooker". Snooker is in the best hands it could possibly be.
Pool in the US has lost everything. First the sponsorship money, the TV exposure, the crowds and now the players and the dignity. Only barbox bangers will remain. It's an insult to the pros to have been reduced to this. Begging for scraps and scuffling from tournament to tournament with increasingly stupid rules made up on the spot. And now barboxes.. I'm surprised more of them have not quit to become insurance salesmen.
The same decline happened to 3C billiards (earlier in history, but still), but at least they kept the game and the equipment mostly the same. They may not have a lot of money, but the skill and dignity of the sport is alive. Anyone suggesting they should have the top events in 3C on a 7 foot table would be lynched publicly or at the very least laughed at, then shunned. But the skill level in this sport keeps rising and rising, and the level of play never fails to electrify the onlooker witnessing the imagination and powerful strokes posessed by it's top players.
Enjoy the 2 foot bunting. I'm looking forward to watching snooker on tv and maybe some old 1 pocket from Accu-stats. I'm finally getting into that game and I love the colorful and interesting commentary of the old tapes. I'd never thought I'd watch sporting events that took place 20 years ago, but that's what I've been reduced to.
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Pool played on 9 foot tables with pro cut pockets is not going to keep pool alive. All its going to do is pacify the hard core pool crow and no offense but you guys simply aren't paying the bills. If you were then business like The Action Report would still be around.
CSI should be marketing pool to a larger audience...a new audience. Those players who feel like competitive pool can only be played on 9' tables are welcome to continue playing in those pool halls still in business using that type of table. My guess is that in about 10 years you'll be easy to find as there will only be a few dozen left.
You want people to take interest in professional pool then make it more accessible to them. Having the 10 ball and 8 ball open in Vegas is a great way for A LOT of amateur players to get to watch it. Those same players most likely play on 7' tables and seeing the pro players on the same size table is a great way to bring home just how good those player are regardless of playing area.
I would continue this rant but I have to leave for Reno soon so one or more pro players can destroy me on a bar table. Good luck at the USBTC to my fellow gluttons for punishment.
CSI should be marketing pool to a larger audience...a new audience. Those players who feel like competitive pool can only be played on 9' tables are welcome to continue playing in those pool halls still in business using that type of table. My guess is that in about 10 years you'll be easy to find as there will only be a few dozen left.
You want people to take interest in professional pool then make it more accessible to them. Having the 10 ball and 8 ball open in Vegas is a great way for A LOT of amateur players to get to watch it. Those same players most likely play on 7' tables and seeing the pro players on the same size table is a great way to bring home just how good those player are regardless of playing area.
I would continue this rant but I have to leave for Reno soon so one or more pro players can destroy me on a bar table. Good luck at the USBTC to my fellow gluttons for punishment.
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So you think its inconceivable amateur players who have enough interest in pool to fly to Vegas for week may find seeing the best players play on the same tables they do more interesting than tables many of them don't even have access to?
As for marketing I agree. I'm not a marketing guy. They cost money. So to me the low hanging fruit is seven foot tables. I have little input on what CSI does so what I think doesnt really matter anymore than anyone else I just happen to agree with this decision. Seems simple to me.
There are many parts of the country where you have to go pretty far out of the way to even find a nine foot table. Then you have this huge infrastructure of bar tables and we have just ignored that trying to push the same rock up the same hill and failing.
Here is a data point to consider:
Top 10 videos on the TAR YouTube channel over the course of its lifetime:
The two leaders by a big margin are bar table. Five of the top ten are bar table. Two are not even matches. Only one is a rotation game on a nine foot table.
Personally I like big table pool more than bar tables. I spent years trying to grow interest in big table pro pool. My experience tells me that its just not there. Maybe it isnt for bar table either but I don't think its crazy to try to something else.
So you think its inconceivable amateur players who have enough interest in pool to fly to Vegas for week may find seeing the best players play on the same tables they do more interesting than tables many of them don't even have access to?
As for marketing I agree. I'm not a marketing guy. They cost money. So to me the low hanging fruit is seven foot tables. I have little input on what CSI does so what I think doesnt really matter anymore than anyone else I just happen to agree with this decision. Seems simple to me.
There are many parts of the country where you have to go pretty far out of the way to even find a nine foot table. Then you have this huge infrastructure of bar tables and we have just ignored that trying to push the same rock up the same hill and failing.
Here is a data point to consider:
Top 10 videos on the TAR YouTube channel over the course of its lifetime:
The two leaders by a big margin are bar table. Five of the top ten are bar table. Two are not even matches. Only one is a rotation game on a nine foot table.
Personally I like big table pool more than bar tables. I spent years trying to grow interest in big table pro pool. My experience tells me that its just not there. Maybe it isnt for bar table either but I don't think its crazy to try to something else.
Amazing and stats don't lie!!!
The audience has spoken! Unbelievable!
also noticed One Pocket getting strong numbers and viewers. Maybe people want a MORE cerebral game then rotation!
Kd
Pool
The only recent positive I can think of for big table pool is DCC. This years events had more players in each event than the past few years and the Bigfoot event on 5 x 10' tables has become very popular.
Greg Sullivan is always thinking and working to make this event bigger and better and more changes are being considered for the future, including adding another event and other changes.
Without Greg and Mark Griffin, the only other promoters I can think of with any kind of success are Mike Zuglan's Joss Tour and Allen Hopkins Super Billiard Expo.
Like it or not, bar table tournaments have put more money in more players pockets every year than the big table events, and the trend will continue. You can run these in a pool room and many if these tournaments have very high payouts for the players. You can build your own customers base with league play and actually run a profitable business. The carrot for league play is the Bar Table Championships in Reno in March and the League Championships in Las Vegas in July.
I spent considerable time and $$ trying to revive a monthly hard copy pool publication here in California. We were very successful with it in the 90's and I thought I could revive it and grind out a small income. 'I'm on Facebook or I have a web page' was the most common answer when trying to get some support from the pool rooms. I was living in the past and so are you if you have blinders on about where pool is headed.
You always have a choice. If you don't support small table pool, support the big table events you have or get your small table game together. The smarter pool rooms are moving more small tables in all the time to increase their bottom line.
The only recent positive I can think of for big table pool is DCC. This years events had more players in each event than the past few years and the Bigfoot event on 5 x 10' tables has become very popular.
Greg Sullivan is always thinking and working to make this event bigger and better and more changes are being considered for the future, including adding another event and other changes.
Without Greg and Mark Griffin, the only other promoters I can think of with any kind of success are Mike Zuglan's Joss Tour and Allen Hopkins Super Billiard Expo.
Like it or not, bar table tournaments have put more money in more players pockets every year than the big table events, and the trend will continue. You can run these in a pool room and many if these tournaments have very high payouts for the players. You can build your own customers base with league play and actually run a profitable business. The carrot for league play is the Bar Table Championships in Reno in March and the League Championships in Las Vegas in July.
I spent considerable time and $$ trying to revive a monthly hard copy pool publication here in California. We were very successful with it in the 90's and I thought I could revive it and grind out a small income. 'I'm on Facebook or I have a web page' was the most common answer when trying to get some support from the pool rooms. I was living in the past and so are you if you have blinders on about where pool is headed.
You always have a choice. If you don't support small table pool, support the big table events you have or get your small table game together. The smarter pool rooms are moving more small tables in all the time to increase their bottom line.
Yeah the one pocket numbers surprised me. I chalk that up to a couple factors:
-One pocket guys are hardcore for the most part and go out of their way to find it.
- Free quality videos of great one pocket matches are not as common as other other games meaning to me it those matches will draw traffic over the long term.
I did the numbers on time spent watching and there were
-237,562 hours spent watching bar table pool.
- 47,036 hours spent watching one pocket
- 33,684 hours spent watching big table 10 ball.
In an industry thats hard to find quantifiable data on that says something to me. Maybe it means nothing but it is one real data point to support trying small tables.
Lou -- Imagine we had virtually all matches from the entire of the 2014 Eurotour (Treviso, Dutch Open, etc...), Japan Open, China Open, Qatar, Turning Stone, Us Open, Music City, and also the Reno 7' events into a giant cloud-based application that computed the optimum Elo-type ratings (Fargo Ratings) of all top players in the world...
Then imagine we could find a group of players in this mix who had BOTH played a lot of games on 9' tables AND a lot of games on 7' tables.
Then we could do the whole optimization using the results ONLY of rotation games on the 7' tables.
And we could repeat it with ONLY the results of matches played on 9' tables...
Imagine Van Boening had 924 games on 9' tables and 876 games on 7' tables---and Orcollo had 536 on 9' and 493 on 7', Jayson Shaw 645 and 444, Appleton 625 615, Morra 645 677 , Hohmann 605 562 ,O. Dominguez 521 852,
E. Dominguez 436 577....
Do you agree THAT would be powerful...
One additional wrinkle (offered as a hard core 1pocket guy): 1pocket players watch videos and streams because they want to learn. There is so much strategy and so many shots that I think a lot of us know that we can up our own game by observing the best practitioners.
Lou Figueroa