So who was (is) the Greatest Player ever ?

not to take away from the carom greats

but Efren did it on multiple continents, tourneys and cash

a handfull of guys in belgium does not a talent pool make

carom guys are often held up on a pedastel as masters here while pool pros get lambasted for not following the money on the snooker tour while the carom guys can play snooker events by jumpig on a train if they so desired
 
smashmouth said:
not to take away from the carom greats

but Efren did it on multiple continents, tourneys and cash

a handfull of guys in belgium does not a talent pool make

carom guys are often held up on a pedastel as masters here while pool pros get lambasted for not following the money on the snooker tour while the carom guys can play snooker events by jumpig on a train if they so desired
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I'm the last to argue which game is the toughest. Sure its easier to run 3 balls in pool than 3 billiards but I believe its just as hard to run 3 racks in pool as around 8 3cushion shots. Or 13 racks vs 25 billiards. Both games have hangers, both games have really tough shots.

As far as travel, last time I looked at a map Japan, Argentina, Peru, Egypt, USA aren't part of the EU. Unfortunately the tournament need to be played where the players are. Just because 3C is not played in the US doesn't mean there's no experts in the rest of the world.

Today 3C is being played at its highest level ever in history. My point supporting Ceulemans as one of the Greatest Ever is that the young punks knocked him off his pedestal for over 10 years and at the end of his career he raised his game even higher than his so called prime, to beat everyone that qualified to play in the Championships. I strongly suspect there's unknowns that could compete but either just don't or can't for whatever reason. That goes for pool and snooker or any sport.
 
yes agreed and he was/is incredible...and to get the top nod from Mosconi is amazing

for someone who so detested pool "hustlers" though Mosconi talked alot of shit much of which is in his book and is proven as factually incorrect

my point re talent pool in carom still stands, by far the smallest group of dedicated pros and top amaetuers in comparison to pool and snooker

when we talk greatest of all time I think there is a distinction between best in class and best cueman overall

all subjective at day's end
 
smashmouth said:
my point re talent pool in carom still stands, by far the smallest group of dedicated pros and top amaetuers in comparison to pool and snooker

when we talk greatest of all time I think there is a distinction between best in class and best cueman overall

all subjective at day's end
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My last comment since I don't want to further hijack this thread. Ceulemans and 3C is not the subject but as far as numbers, take a look at South Korea. There's an estimated 10 million players and 40,000 clubs. There's probably 30 million world wide, of which there's maybe 5,000 in the USA if lucky.

BTW a South Korean is the current World Champion - Sung-Won CHOI
 
still not close to China UK and USA numbers, not a slight against carom guys, just a fact

it's conceivable that the best carom guys ever are the best cue men period,( i know they do things that no other cueman can replicate) just not likely imo

back to thread topic

totally fair and right to include top carom guys for sure, hell we should be putting Alfredo de oro on here too

again, ulimately all subjective

put a gun to my head and I might go with Ronnie though
 
3kushn said:
My last comment since I don't want to further hijack this thread. Ceulemans and 3C is not the subject but as far as numbers, take a look at South Korea. There's an estimated 10 million players and 40,000 clubs. There's probably 30 million world wide, of which there's maybe 5,000 in the USA if lucky.

BTW a South Korean is the current World Champion - Sung-Won CHOI
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I would hope American Manufacturers are taking advantage of the Asian Market. Where were the Asian clubs before we help settle things with wars? I assume pretty grim. We American's are different from the rest of the World. We dumped pool long ago with a lot of help from pool itself. Streaming is re-awakening the sport here. It will take time if it is done properly.
 
Ralph Greenleaf

Willie Mosconi

Efren

Ronnie O'Sullivan

Different eras, different times, different disciplines.

For all around my nod goes to Efren.
 
always wondered how Hoppe vs Mosconi went down

their paths crossed for years, there is no way they didn't play each other on nmerous occassions in both disciplines
 
I played lots of pool for years in rooms and especially bars. Did quite well in bars. Pool was doing well then. I do not remember much talk of Championship pool or it's players. I remember the names of Mosconi, Lassiter, Hoppe, Greenleaf. But in only brief news flashes. No play on tv, little in newspapers. Saw the few movies out there but where did you guys amass all this information from. What sources?? Were there pool publications?
 
Been watching some old matches from the Pros. This one was Crane vs Lassiter. Crane won, 8 ball. Crane profile view could be fill in for Clint Eastwood. The stance and bridge and stroke indistinguishable from today. They did seem to hit the ball much softer though.Try to get some histrionics on the game I've been playing but not knowing much about the History of.

Seems this one was on ESPN Game of Champions or something like that. Guess I was golfing those years.
 
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im sorry i havent read all the posts but my answer would be
HAROLD WORST
 
if you have not seen em play, your opinion becomes far less relevant imo, my own included

i feel very comfortable assessing those whose prime was late 80's onwards but prior to that..............

it seems as if some members here can go back to late 70's (again watching pros in their prime as an older youth/young adult not child)

before that, seems like mostly uneducated conjecture,

for me at day's end, I respect how one played against their field, i.e. the greatest of their time vs greatest of all time

watching say Mosconi on old videos and there are lots of em, he would not be a top 1000 player today....it's painfully obvious, playing in that exact same manner that is, an important point of note so transporting a 60's Mosconi over to a current tourney and he gets slaughtered however if he was born in this era, how far would have his natural talent taken him?
 
Efren is the best in my opinion. The man could excel at any game that included balls and a stick. Throw the balls on the floor and invent a game I would bet on him. How many times has Efren won the DCC one pocket event? 6?. This is truly amazing because of the level of talent and short race to three!!! There are many guys that can play great nine ball and ten ball but the more complicated the game becomes that's when you see who really has the most talent.

Have you ever watched Efren throw all 15 balls near the center of the table and run them out in rotation? He may go two or three rails and just tickle the next ball open. The man is 60 years old and still is a threat to beat anyone. A lot of great players that have played but you can't teach someone to have the mind Efren does.
 
smashmouth said:
... watching say Mosconi on old videos and there are lots of em, he would not be a top 1000 player today....it's painfully obvious, playing in that exact same manner that is, an important point of note so transporting a 60's Mosconi over to a current tourney and he gets slaughtered however if he was born in this era, how far would have his natural talent taken him?
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His prime was way before the 1960's.
 
smashmouth said:
if you have not seen em play, your opinion becomes far less relevant imo, my own included

i feel very comfortable assessing those whose prime was late 80's onwards but prior to that..............

it seems as if some members here can go back to late 70's (again watching pros in their prime as an older youth/young adult not child)

before that, seems like mostly uneducated conjecture,

for me at day's end, I respect how one played against their field, i.e. the greatest of their time vs greatest of all time

watching say Mosconi on old videos and there are lots of em, he would not be a top 1000 player today....it's painfully obvious, playing in that exact same manner that is, an important point of note so transporting a 60's Mosconi over to a current tourney and he gets slaughtered however if he was born in this era, how far would have his natural talent taken him?
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If that were the case no one would not believe in like History. Some embellish what they see. Some what they write. I would double check anything I'm really interested in on the Net or elsewhere. If it's just about pool I'll just about listen to anyone! I will say however the saying Mosconi would not make the top 1000 today would be ludicrous and make the statement an uneducated one!
 
Earl ran 4-6 racks every match.....I've heard the same thing from many top players.

When it comes to 9 Ball Earl Strickland has the highest gear in history. Jay Helfert commented that he saw tournaments that Earl ran 4-6 racks every match.....I've heard the same thing from many top players.

Even Mike Sigel told me when Earl was in gear no one could beat him because you simply wouldn't get to the table enough times. Earl will say the same thing about Mike Sigel too, they know what level of perfection each one reached at given times.
 
CJ Wiley said:
When it comes to 9 Ball Earl Strickland has the highest gear in history. Jay Helfert commented that he saw tournaments that Earl ran 4-6 racks every match.....I've heard the same thing from many top players.

Even Mike Sigel told me when Earl was in gear no one could beat him because you simply wouldn't get to the table enough times. Earl will say the same thing about Mike Sigel too, they know what level of perfection each one reached at given times.
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Earl made the 9' table look like a bar box! He rained racks match after match. There was no safe lead with Earl. I can remember him being down something like 7-3 and the next time his opponent came to the table he was down 7-9. Now that's disheartening, I don't care who you are. As Mike Sigel said, simply put Earl had a higher gear than anyone else, and that includes Buddy, Varner, Mike and all the rest. Earl put a lot of guys in a coma!

The major difference in the Earl of today, besides his mood swings, is that now he misses balls. Before he just didn't miss or get out of line. He was a 9-Ball machine!
 
bbb said:
im sorry i havent read all the posts but my answer would be
HAROLD WORST
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perhaps the best during his short reign, however, because of his early death i can't agree that he was the all time, all around best

my vote goes to EFREN based on his 9B, 1P, 8B and BP prowess

i can't help but think that he would (can still be) a force @ straight pool
 
CJ Wiley said:
When it comes to 9 Ball Earl Strickland has the highest gear in history. Jay Helfert commented that he saw tournaments that Earl ran 4-6 racks every match.....I've heard the same thing from many top players.

Even Mike Sigel told me when Earl was in gear no one could beat him because you simply wouldn't get to the table enough times. Earl will say the same thing about Mike Sigel too, they know what level of perfection each one reached at given times.
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Haven't read all the posts but there is one player that might not have been mentioned. I'm sure you, Jay, Billy...etc have seen their game many times over the years amd can attest to their greatness. Probably as good if not better than Earl in his prime, SVB and Efren also. The day this player is beat in an all around is the day the real "greatest player" will be crowned.....;)
 
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