So who was (is) the Greatest Player ever ?
- Thread starter PoolBoy1
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That is an amazing statement by Willie and I know you have no reason to lie or to skew the truth but I have to wonder just how much Willie was in awe of Cuelmans' ability to play 3 cushion. People sometimes give enormous amounts of credit to others in different sports/disciplines simply out of respect.
I believe Efren is/was the best all-around player that ever lived.
JoeyA
I believe Efren is/was the best all-around player that ever lived.
JoeyA
Yeah. Efren is humble man as you all know. He said at interview; "when I was young, I was STRONG. No matter if you could run balls every time you have chance.. You still wouldn't beat me when I was young..."
I take this at fact. Efren does not brag I believe..:wink:
Efren, always bragging
That Efren, always bragging about how he used to play in the 70s.
LoL
That Efren, always bragging about how he used to play in the 70s.
LoL
That Efren, always bragging about how he used to play in the 70s.
When I first saw him in the early 80's he was really amazing. Not to name drop but it is important to the story. I was sitting with Miz in a pool room like 3 am and Efren was playing a guy giving him a huge spot. Miz leaned over and commented that Efren was the best player he had ever seen.
There is no single best player ever. From what I saw and heard, I would start with Greenleaf who was universally respected by all the other players. Mosconi was the next to be considered the top guy at Straight Pool, THE tournament game of that era. Mizerak was the next to dominate. Later on Sigel, Strickland and Hall were all equally good, with Earl having a little higher gear when it came to running racks.
Hayden Lingo may have been the best One Pocket player ever, but in the 50's Rags Fitzpatrick was the man to beat and no one could. Rags played all games and was near unbeatable from what I was told. He died young at 40. In the 60's Lassiter was King, but a young upstart named Harold Worst was taking over. To this day he was the best player I ever saw, raising his game to whatever level needed to win. Worst was a quiet and unassuming champion, much like Efren who had his long period of dominance. And even Efren didn't have to beat his country mate Parica, who was unquestionably the top 9-Ball player for two decades. Earl won the most tournaments, but even he couldn't beat Parica for the cash, so go figure.
Somewhere in there Ronnie ruled the One Pocket world and Taylor and Bugs were the masters of Bank Pool. So we've had many "best" players over the years and who's to say who the best one truly was. It's all very subjective. Even in Snooker the debate goes on about Joe Davis first, then Steve Davis, followed by Stephen Hendry and Ronnie O'Sullivan. Walter Lindrum was another revered name in this sport as was Willie Hoppe. So take your pick, that's about two dozen "bests' that I know of! :thumbup:
Hayden Lingo may have been the best One Pocket player ever, but in the 50's Rags Fitzpatrick was the man to beat and no one could. Rags played all games and was near unbeatable from what I was told. He died young at 40. In the 60's Lassiter was King, but a young upstart named Harold Worst was taking over. To this day he was the best player I ever saw, raising his game to whatever level needed to win. Worst was a quiet and unassuming champion, much like Efren who had his long period of dominance. And even Efren didn't have to beat his country mate Parica, who was unquestionably the top 9-Ball player for two decades. Earl won the most tournaments, but even he couldn't beat Parica for the cash, so go figure.
Somewhere in there Ronnie ruled the One Pocket world and Taylor and Bugs were the masters of Bank Pool. So we've had many "best" players over the years and who's to say who the best one truly was. It's all very subjective. Even in Snooker the debate goes on about Joe Davis first, then Steve Davis, followed by Stephen Hendry and Ronnie O'Sullivan. Walter Lindrum was another revered name in this sport as was Willie Hoppe. So take your pick, that's about two dozen "bests' that I know of! :thumbup:
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I am not going to include the "older" eras because so few people here know much of anything at all about how Mosconi, Lassiter, Greenleaf, or Worst "actually" shot. Opinions about these guys are worth next to nothing because they are based on legend and record books and little to know actual first hand knowledge.
So.
In the era I know. Which is the mid 80's rise of pool after the Color Of Money to day who is the best?
Rotation Pool:
Earl Strickland without question has the single highest gear I have ever seen "anyone" show on a pool table when he was in his prime and firing on all cylinders. When he was "right" there was no one, and I mean no one in the modern era that could keep up with him. Even Efren could not deal with the fire power of Earl in their COM match for those first two days and Earl built a huge lead. On Day 3 Earl then did what he has often done in his career and let him emotions take over and Efren took advantage of that. But for anyone who watches those first 2 days of pool in that match and the shots that Earl was playing that "NO" other pro would ever play to keep his huge packages alive, it was an insane display of cueing ability in pool that no one else in this sport has ever come even close to showing. Earl picked up on the Filipino style of kicking very quickly and proved to be a very good student, his safety play and ability to kick is often grossly underestimated.
Honorable mention only for those that are very close to being an argument for #1 would be
Efren Reyes whose break was simply never good enough for him to dominate in rotation pool as he could have with a better break.
Mike Sigel who was one of the most determined and dominant competitors anyone ever had to face. He had a "very" strong break, extremely powerful shotmaking abilities, and a very good safety game. His weaknesses came from his lack of ability to kick safe like we see now, he kicked to hit balls but the new Filipino style of kicking safe was something he never quite mastered. He also never quite could put out the unreal offense that Earl was capable of.
1-pocket:
Efren is without a shadow of a doubt the best 1-pocket player of the modern era. The simple explanation of this is that in his prime there was no one who would play him even and at his absolute peak I saw him in the Cueclub offering the owner who had just snapped off Harry Platis for $25,000 giving him 10/5 who played unreal 1-pocket on his table there to the right as you came up to the bar. Efren offered 8-7, the owner wanted 9-6. Now some people might wonder "yeah but that guy was not that good was he?" that same time Scott Frost was also there in the room woofing with both of them trying to get the owner to play with Scott getting 9-7, the owner would only give him 8-7. So you have Scott Frost not wanting to play a guy "while" being offered weight, and then you have Efren "offering" that guy who wants to spot Scott to play, and Efren is offering weight... Nothing ever came of it really, Efren had a cool looking cue and Scott took some shots with it and I do remember he broke the ferrule on Efren's cue by accident (not his fault, it looked like it was weak as it broke on a relatively normal shot). But one thing is for certain, Efren was the king that day, there was NOONE in the world who could have walked into that room at that time and played Efren Even, and I am not sure anyone in the world would have even tried him with 8-7 at that time. That was probably back in the late 90's.
Honorable mentions?
There is no one worth mentioning, it is Efren.
I find most other games to be niche games or in the case of 8-ball it was simply played far too inconsistently at the pro level and I have rarely ever thought the equipment, formats, or race allowed the best to be realized. In Europe Garreth Potts has managed to separate himself from the field though, he is the best atm. Banks is played by far too few people and with few real events. Straight pool in the modern era suffers from being a niche game, we have some good players who put some focus on it, they stand out from the other pros as good because they actually put some effort into it while to most others it is a carnival game.
So.
In the era I know. Which is the mid 80's rise of pool after the Color Of Money to day who is the best?
Rotation Pool:
Earl Strickland without question has the single highest gear I have ever seen "anyone" show on a pool table when he was in his prime and firing on all cylinders. When he was "right" there was no one, and I mean no one in the modern era that could keep up with him. Even Efren could not deal with the fire power of Earl in their COM match for those first two days and Earl built a huge lead. On Day 3 Earl then did what he has often done in his career and let him emotions take over and Efren took advantage of that. But for anyone who watches those first 2 days of pool in that match and the shots that Earl was playing that "NO" other pro would ever play to keep his huge packages alive, it was an insane display of cueing ability in pool that no one else in this sport has ever come even close to showing. Earl picked up on the Filipino style of kicking very quickly and proved to be a very good student, his safety play and ability to kick is often grossly underestimated.
Honorable mention only for those that are very close to being an argument for #1 would be
Efren Reyes whose break was simply never good enough for him to dominate in rotation pool as he could have with a better break.
Mike Sigel who was one of the most determined and dominant competitors anyone ever had to face. He had a "very" strong break, extremely powerful shotmaking abilities, and a very good safety game. His weaknesses came from his lack of ability to kick safe like we see now, he kicked to hit balls but the new Filipino style of kicking safe was something he never quite mastered. He also never quite could put out the unreal offense that Earl was capable of.
1-pocket:
Efren is without a shadow of a doubt the best 1-pocket player of the modern era. The simple explanation of this is that in his prime there was no one who would play him even and at his absolute peak I saw him in the Cueclub offering the owner who had just snapped off Harry Platis for $25,000 giving him 10/5 who played unreal 1-pocket on his table there to the right as you came up to the bar. Efren offered 8-7, the owner wanted 9-6. Now some people might wonder "yeah but that guy was not that good was he?" that same time Scott Frost was also there in the room woofing with both of them trying to get the owner to play with Scott getting 9-7, the owner would only give him 8-7. So you have Scott Frost not wanting to play a guy "while" being offered weight, and then you have Efren "offering" that guy who wants to spot Scott to play, and Efren is offering weight... Nothing ever came of it really, Efren had a cool looking cue and Scott took some shots with it and I do remember he broke the ferrule on Efren's cue by accident (not his fault, it looked like it was weak as it broke on a relatively normal shot). But one thing is for certain, Efren was the king that day, there was NOONE in the world who could have walked into that room at that time and played Efren Even, and I am not sure anyone in the world would have even tried him with 8-7 at that time. That was probably back in the late 90's.
Honorable mentions?
There is no one worth mentioning, it is Efren.
I find most other games to be niche games or in the case of 8-ball it was simply played far too inconsistently at the pro level and I have rarely ever thought the equipment, formats, or race allowed the best to be realized. In Europe Garreth Potts has managed to separate himself from the field though, he is the best atm. Banks is played by far too few people and with few real events. Straight pool in the modern era suffers from being a niche game, we have some good players who put some focus on it, they stand out from the other pros as good because they actually put some effort into it while to most others it is a carnival game.
The gap between Mosconi and Mizerak is surprising.
I once had the link to website that listed ALL of the world 14.1 champions and runners up going way back and spent a long time reading through it chronologically. What surprised me were two things.
A) Lassiter was a very dominant straight pool champion in his early years, despite the fact he is almost always mentioned for his rotation pool. He won a bunch of titles in straight pool for quite a long time.
B) A guy completely lost to memory in pool, tragically so it would seem given his own extreme dominance once Mosconi fell off after his stroke. Joe Balsis. I think I could count on one hand the number of times this guys name is mentioned here on AZB in these types of threads, but when I was going through that website it became apparent that when this guy was in his prime he was a dominant champion for his era.
Correct on all counts. In the 50's and 60's Lassiter was the dominant 14.1 player with Balsis close behind (in the 60's). I saw Luther win title after title in Johnston City and Las Vegas. He would consistently run a 90 or more in matches to 125. Pretty hard to beat that.
P.S. Toby (from the Cue Club) eventually got that 9-6 game from Efren for 10K each. I was in with Toby for 1K and Toby took it down. Just too much weight for Efren on Toby's home court.
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The funny thing about this whole thread is that the op asked who was "Greatest Player ever", not who was the "Best Player ever".
So, I'm sticking with my original opinion and say again...the "Muhammad Ali of pool"
...Mike Wong.
So, I'm sticking with my original opinion and say again...the "Muhammad Ali of pool"
...Mike Wong.
In the few times I got to watch that guy play on that exact table he never lost. He was an extremely good 1-pocket player and he knew all the rails, rolls, and weight of that table down to a tee.
That Efren would even try him at 9-6 speaks gobs about what Efren's gear was like, because Toby himself was world class.
Here we go with the Political Correct Crowd again. They must scream to be heard! You don't have to respond to questions you don't understand! Start your own thread. Don't blurr the meanings of others!
Lol! Calm down Princess, I was being facetious.
*or,would you prefer I give you the 5 and all the breaks? Be sure to bring lotsa cabbage doe!
*another joke thingy
unless of course Mike Wong is your hero then i'll just...
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That Efren, always bragging about how he used to play in the 70s.
my dad would always tell me, if there was an Efren Reyes match in Lucky13 in manila, no one was allowed to get in the pool hall unless you had money inside your pocket. if not boy bicol or amang parica, efren was the best. this was in the mid 70's and the early 80's
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cannot speak to a lot of those names, wish I could, but I gotta say......
Miz on his ABSOLUTE BEST day could not touch Earl nor Efren in any game except straights. not even close
put him up against Efren for the cash even odds in straights and it wouldn't take long for Efren to smoke him consistently, Earl probably too but he's a head case and straights requires patience, I'd still take Earl over time though, ironically, nine ball probably hurt Earl's temperment and mental game over time being such a n ocd type game
Efren is still a threat today in almost any game against anybody for the cash, it's insane how he's maintained his game for so long, better than anyone in all of cue sports since I've been around, I don't get it, he looks half blind and gimpy now but god damn he can play
another name to toss in is Alex
he continues to win at pool to this day a decade past his first world title, he destroys people in cash games and he plays snooker a shade below UK pros
an honourable mention, Cliff Thornburn in his prime was world snooker champ and world number one and before that played money matches in pool in the US and did well, he battled demons that cut his prime short
Cliff would play at the clubs in London pick up a house cue and destroy all the top pros of the day
he continues to win at pool to this day a decade past his first world title, he destroys people in cash games and he plays snooker a shade below UK pros
an honourable mention, Cliff Thornburn in his prime was world snooker champ and world number one and before that played money matches in pool in the US and did well, he battled demons that cut his prime short
Cliff would play at the clubs in London pick up a house cue and destroy all the top pros of the day
Just Saying. I know this is mostly about Pool but looking at Cue Sports in General and dominance over decades.
Raymond Ceulemans Born July 1937
UMB World Three-cushion Championship (1963–1973, 1975–1980, 1983, 1985, 1990, 2001
1974 he takes 2nd place vs Kobayashi
1981 and I believe 1982 Cuelemans decided not to play in the Worlds.
1984 he takes 3rd behind Dielis (2nd), Kobayashi (1st)
2001 and 11 years after his 1990 World Championship, he wins it again, at age 64.
All the 3C players listed in this thread were there and then some.
http://www.kozoom.com/en/billiard-carom/results/62/rankings.html