archer/hunter 2012 MD 14.1-Commentator Question

[accdealer]

here I am starting trouble again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnz1c_atkzg&spfreload=1

at the 17 minute mark, the commentator says that she's watched efren and he's unusual because instead of one big break shot, he'll shoot roughly 3 throughout the course of a rack. naturally I'm paraphrasing what she's saying.

does she not realize that efren is actually playing the game correctly? that most modern day players who blast the rack, though effective, are not playing the game properly?

she also mentioned that don polo, and a few other seasoned 14.1 players were playing their matches at the same time. does she think that they're style is unusual as well? how about bobby hunter who is doing the same thing right in front of her?

how about hohmann, who I think is the only modern player who plays the game properly, save some key ball and break shot selection, is he unusual as well?

im not trying to blast the commentator, but I just feel that you should know the right way to play first, and then if the newly adopted way suits your game better, then go for it. part of keeping 14.1 alive is recognizing the way it was played by it's forefathers and former masters of the game. I'm not ignorant enough to say that is the only way to play the game, but it is the time tested and best way to play the game.

 

[dmgwalsh]

here I am starting trouble again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnz1c_atkzg&spfreload=1

at the 17 minute mark, the commentator says that she's watched efren and he's unusual because instead of one big break shot, he'll shoot roughly 3 throughout the course of a rack. naturally I'm paraphrasing what she's saying.

does she not realize that efren is actually playing the game correctly? that most modern day players who blast the rack, though effective, are not playing the game properly?

she also mentioned that don polo, and a few other seasoned 14.1 players were playing their matches at the same time. does she think that they're style is unusual as well? how about bobby hunter who is doing the same thing right in front of her?

how about hohmann, who I think is the only modern player who plays the game properly, save some key ball and break shot selection, is he unusual as well?

im not trying to blast the commentator, but I just feel that you should know the right way to play first, and then if the newly adopted way suits your game better, then go for it. part of keeping 14.1 alive is recognizing the way it was played by it's forefathers and former masters of the game. I'm not ignorant enough to say that is the only way to play the game, but it is the time tested and best way to play the game.

Megan Fort, Shaun Wilkie's girlfriend was probably just helping out, bringing some sound to the booth. I am sure that Alvin Nelson appreciated the help. I don't think either of them know straight pool well. Megan helps direct the tournament and Alvin helps get the video feed out to us.

 

[accdealer]

Megan Fort, Shaun Wilkie's girlfriend was probably just helping out, bringing some sound to the booth. I am sure that Alvin Nelson appreciated the help. I don't think either of them know straight pool well. Megan helps direct the tournament and Alvin helps get the video feed out to us.

then I somewhat feel bad about my observation. that wilkie is a real gentleman and very good player who's ascended from a regional champ to a threat to beat anybody.

I rescind my criticism, but still contend that we need to respect and/or at least recognize the traditional way of running balls.

btw, this match is a great chance to watch bobby hunter who you don't get a chance to see play all that often.

 

[dmgwalsh]

then I somewhat feel bad about my observation. that wilkie is a real gentleman and very good player who's ascended from a regional champ to a threat to beat anybody.

I rescind my criticism, but still contend that we need to respect and/or at least recognize the traditional way of running balls.

btw, this match is a great chance to watch bobby hunter who you don't get a chance to see play all that often.

It was a good observation nonetheless.

I have been at Derby and at the World's when Alvin has been begging for some commentary help, saying he really does not know 14.1 that well. The World's have been able to develop good local commentators the last few years. Steve Kurtz, Gene Mann, Mike Badstuebner, and actually Shaun Wilkie does a real nice job in the booth.

I am a little spoiled on the Hunter thing. He plays a lot down at Derby and I get to see him in our local straight pool league, which just finished. Bobby went undefeated, taking first place and also got the high run prize. Can't do any better than that.

 

[alphadog]

Am I the only one who notices Bobby "cues" under his left eye for some shots-under his right eye for some-and between his eyes for others?

I played him in Red Shoes once and it was very obvious.

Not saying it doesn't work for him!

Think he is a great player and a true gentleman.Game needs more people like him.

 

[accdealer]

It was a good observation nonetheless.

I have been at Derby and at the World's when Alvin has been begging for some commentary help, saying he really does not know 14.1 that well. The World's have been able to develop good local commentators the last few years. Steve Kurtz, Gene Mann, Mike Badstuebner, and actually Shaun Wilkie does a real nice job in the booth.

I am a little spoiled on the Hunter thing. He plays a lot down at Derby and I get to see him in our local straight pool league, which just finished. Bobby went undefeated, taking first place and also got the high run prize. Can't do any better than that.

I guess I should try to go to some of these events and see if he needs help in the booth. admittedly only a 50-60 ball runner on a good day, but I know the game pretty well. after I go 2 and out, maybe I can enjoy a day or two in the booth.

 

[sjm]

here I am starting trouble again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnz1c_atkzg&spfreload=1

at the 17 minute mark, the commentator says that she's watched efren and he's unusual because instead of one big break shot, he'll shoot roughly 3 throughout the course of a rack. naturally I'm paraphrasing what she's saying.

does she not realize that efren is actually playing the game correctly? that most modern day players who blast the rack, though effective, are not playing the game properly?

Who says that the "develop the rack slowly" approach is correct and the "blast them open" approach is wrong?

Yes, the old-schoolers tended to develop the rack more slowly, but it was a function of the fact that they played with nappy cloth, old composition balls and dead rails. Today's players play in a way that reflects the equipment they play on.

 

[arnaldo]

Today's players play in a way that reflects the equipment they play on.

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And I think you'd agree that their manner of play in 14.1 events -- beyond the equipment differences -- also reflects the much higher proportion of 9- and 10-ball they play as compared to the "old-style" 14.1 masters.

More travelling of the CB, more use of the rails, more shot making demands necessitated by looser position play and incautious traveling into clusters without fear of getting into trouble because they're certain that their shot making skills will extricate them.

I like Irving Crane's comment from years ago when he said:
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"A top Straight Pool player ideally wants to keep setting himself up with shots that his grandmother could make . . . that's the key to staying out of trouble, and it's the reason that it all looks so easy when it's done right."
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Arnaldo

 

[dmgwalsh]

-----------------------------------------------------------
And I think you'd agree that their manner of play in 14.1 events -- beyond the equipment differences -- also reflects the much higher proportion of 9- and 10-ball they play as compared to the "old-style" 14.1 masters.

More travelling of the CB, more use of the rails, more shot making demands necessitated by looser position play and incautious traveling into clusters without fear of getting into trouble because they're certain that their shot making skills will extricate them.

I like Irving Crane's comment from years ago when he said:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"A top Straight Pool player ideally wants to keep setting himself up with shots that his grandmother could make . . . that's the key to staying out of trouble, and it's the reason that it all looks so easy when it's done right."
-------------------------------------------------------------

Arnaldo

Exactly what I suspected, although I, of course do not have the benefit of having watched the masters back in the day.

Someone commented on the Mika Immonen 224 Ball run about how his cue ball seemed to have traveled a mile during the course of his run. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l91zs-QOQpQ

I watched it and noticed the same thing and remarked that he seemed to take 2 and 3 rail position ala 9 ball and 10 ball rather than shooting soft and taking one or no rail positition.

 

[sjm]

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And I think you'd agree that their manner of play in 14.1 events -- beyond the equipment differences -- also reflects the much higher proportion of 9- and 10-ball they play as compared to the "old-style" 14.1 masters.

In principle, yes, I agree, but ....

.... on the old nappy cloth with the old composition balls, opening the pack on the first shot of a rack was more difficult and players that wanted to hit the break shots hard had to be more ambitious in their end patterns to get close to the break ball.

Today, it's less important to get near the break ball, because the packs can opened with less speed than used to be required, so the cost of not getting near the break ball is less and players need not be as obsessed about it.

Somewhat predictably, and not incorrectly, the current generation is often inclined to play the best angle off the key ball into the break shot (rather than trying to play virtually no position from the key ball onto the break shot), and this is understandable in the nine ball era. It is also quite elegant from a technical standpoint.

 

[Dan White]

Somewhat predictably, and not incorrectly, the current generation is often inclined to play the best angle off the key ball into the break shot (rather than trying to play virtually no position from the key ball onto the break shot), and this is understandable in the nine ball era. It is also quite elegant from a technical standpoint.

Stu - maybe its just me but I don't understand what you are saying. Can you rephrase?

 

[arnaldo]

Exactly what I suspected, although I, of course do not have the benefit of having watched the masters back in the day.

Actually Dennis you can get a clear and precise impression of the Straight Pool techniques and methodology of the “old masters” by viewing existing recordings (many are available) of the tournament play of both Mike Sigel and Steve Mizerak, particularly during the 1980s and thru the mid-1990’s. Mike’s very pure, essentially old-style 150-and-out in the NYC 1992 US Open against Mike Zuglan is notable in that regard, and also in his match against Nick Varner in the year 2000 NYC championship held in the former Roseland Ballroom.

I’ll explain:

You’ll likely already know that Mike’s longtime 14.1 mentor in his Rochester. NY hometown was Irving Crane, and that Mike ran over 300 in his late teens entirely due to his own natural abilities, pool intelligence, and his absorption of the key elements of Irving’s approach to the game – clear vestiges of which are immediately visible throughout Mike's 14.1 career tournaments when he's in confident stroke, and which remain with him to the present day when he plays occasional 14.1 matches.

The same mentor/student technique transferal is applicable with Mizerak’s NJ relationship with Mosconi, who liked young Steve immensely and whose atypically-willingly extended, purposeful influence on Steve is quite apparent to most longtime spectators at the tournaments of both men (and also the many exhibitions of Willie I attended in various US cities). Steve had great skill in the use of highly finessed short distance stun-sliding position plays and for precise cluster separations, (and break ball creation via small nudges). This extraordinarily precise stun skill -- permitting him to frequently avoid the need for cushions when appropriate – was directly inherited from Mosconi, along with so many other elements of Mosconi's approach to the game.

So, in a sense you can still visit a bit with unrecorded old masters when viewing many of the games played by Sigel and Mizerak at their best tournaments.

I’m so highly appreciative of the hours of dedicated work you enthusiastically and generously perform in keeping Straight Pool alive, that without hesitation I’d be more than happy to let you borrow DVDs I purchased years ago of any of the above-referenced matches for your viewing. Let me know by PM of any you haven’t seen and where to send them.

To my knowledge they’re also still available for purchase from Accu-Stats.

Arnaldo

 

[dmgwalsh]

Actually Dennis you can get a clear and precise impression of the Straight Pool techniques and methodology of the “old masters” by viewing existing recordings (many are available) of the tournament play of both Mike Sigel and Steve Mizerak, particularly during the 1980s and thru the mid-1990’s. Mike’s very pure, essentially old-style 150-and-out in the NYC 1992 US Open against Mike Zuglan is notable in that regard, and also in his match against Nick Varner in the year 2000 NYC championship held in the former Roseland Ballroom.

I’ll explain:

You’ll likely already know that Mike’s longtime 14.1 mentor in his Rochester. NY hometown was Irving Crane, and that Mike ran over 300 in his late teens entirely due to his own natural abilities, pool intelligence, and his absorption of the key elements of Irving’s approach to the game – clear vestiges of which are immediately visible throughout Mike's 14.1 career tournaments when he's in confident stroke, and which remain with him to the present day when he plays occasional 14.1 matches.

The same mentor/student technique transferal is applicable with Mizerak’s NJ relationship with Mosconi, who liked young Steve immensely and whose atypically-willingly extended, purposeful influence on Steve is quite apparent to most longtime spectators at the tournaments of both men (and also the many exhibitions of Willie I attended in various US cities). Steve had great skill in the use of highly finessed short distance stun-sliding position plays and for precise cluster separations, (and break ball creation via small nudges). This extraordinarily precise stun skill -- permitting him to frequently avoid the need for cushions when appropriate – was directly inherited from Mosconi, along with so many other elements of Mosconi's approach to the game.

So, in a sense you can still visit a bit with unrecorded old masters when viewing many of the games played by Sigel and Mizerak at their best tournaments.

I’m so highly appreciative of the hours of dedicated work you enthusiastically and generously perform in keeping Straight Pool alive, that without hesitation I’d be more than happy to let you borrow DVDs I purchased years ago of any of the above-referenced matches for your viewing. Let me know by PM of any you haven’t seen and where to send them.

To my knowledge they’re also still available for purchase from Accu-Stats.

Arnaldo

Thank you for your kind offer, Arnaldo.

I was basically deferring to others with more first hand experience watching the masters of bygone eras.

I had not thought about those two players being reflections of their mentors. I already have all those dvds. I will look at them again with an eye to checking out their patterns and techniques.

Speaking of mentors, I wonder who would have mentored Jim Rempe. He has a very nice classic style of straight pool. or Alan Hopkins. The accu-stats match between Rempe and Hopkins seems to me to be one of the best examples around of what I take to be the old style of straight pool.

 

[arnaldo]

Thank you for your kind offer, Arnaldo.

I was basically deferring to others with more first hand experience watching the masters of bygone eras.

I had not thought about those two players being reflections of their mentors. I already have all those dvds. I will look at them again with an eye to checking out their patterns and techniques.

Speaking of mentors, I wonder who would have mentored Jim Rempe. He has a very nice classic style of straight pool. or Alan Hopkins. The accu-stats match between Rempe and Hopkins seems to me to be one of the best examples around of what I take to be the old style of straight pool.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of Rempe's idols was Frank McGowan from Brooklyn, NY, and while in his early twenties Jim studied Frank's patterns at several of Fred Whalen's many Straight Pool invitational championships held in the huge downtown L.A. Elks Club during seven of the 1960's years and in the first third of the 1970s. (I was a volunteer scorekeeper at a number of them and befriended most of the players during the tournaments. I especially liked Danny D, Cisero Murphy, and the very quiet, but hugely country-boy witty Lassiter.)

Rempe also studied McGowan's play while spectating at several regional Northeast Straight Pool competitions. Regarding McGowan's patterns, Rempe said a number of times "No one took the balls off better than McGowan."

Btw, Dennis, if you have AccuStats' Mizerak v Sigel from the 1989 Chicago US Open (won 150 to 8 by Steve) you'll see plenty of Mosconi's influence on Steve with regard to patterns and that beautifully finessed limited-cushion stun position play referenced above.

Arnaldo

 

[stevekur1]

Speaking of mentors, I wonder who would have mentored Jim Rempe. He has a very nice classic style of straight pool. or Alan Hopkins. The accu-stats match between Rempe and Hopkins seems to me to be one of the best examples around of what I take to be the old style of straight pool.

I would love to see this match, I love to watch King James play, though I have not seen a lot of his footage.

What event was this from ??

Steve

 

[dmgwalsh]

------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of Rempe's idols was Frank McGowan from Brooklyn, NY, and while in his early twenties Jim studied Frank's patterns at several of Fred Whalen's many Straight Pool invitational championships held in the huge downtown L.A. Elks Club during seven of the 1960's years and in the first third of the 1970s. (I was a volunteer scorekeeper at a number of them and befriended most of the players during the tournaments. I especially liked Danny D, Cisero Murphy, and the very quiet, but hugely country-boy witty Lassiter.)

Rempe also studied McGowan's play while spectating at several regional Northeast Straight Pool competitions. Regarding McGowan's patterns, Rempe said a number of times "No one took the balls off better than McGowan."

Btw, Dennis, if you have AccuStats' Mizerak v Sigel from the 1989 Chicago US Open (won 150 to 8 by Steve) you'll see plenty of Mosconi's influence on Steve with regard to patterns and that beautifully finessed limited-cushion stun position play referenced above.

Arnaldo

Thanks for all of the information, Arnaldo. This is quite a nice history lesson.

I do have the Mizerak/Sigel match from the 1989 US Open. I brought it up from my basement yesterday and converted it to an mp4, so I will be able to watch on my ipad as I commute in to work. I will give it another look see.

I would love to see this match, I love to watch King James play, though I have not seen a lot of his footage.

What event was this from ??

Steve

1992 US Open
http://www.1vshop.com/Accu-Stats/st...00393&PNAME=Jim+Rempe+vs.+Allen+Hopkins+(DVD)

 

[stevekur1]

I missed the match this morning, did we get confirmation of it being uploaded to YouTube ?

Steve

 

[dmgwalsh]

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw, Dennis, if you have AccuStats' Mizerak v Sigel from the 1989 Chicago US Open (won 150 to 8 by Steve) you'll see plenty of Mosconi's influence on Steve with regard to patterns and that beautifully finessed limited-cushion stun position play referenced above.

Arnaldo

Arnaldo: Thank you for the tip, I watched the Mizerak Sigel and it was quite a nice old style game of straight pool. As Bill Staten mentioned, the Miz was putting on a straight pool clinic. Most of the balls were pocketed in the bottom two pockets.

I will watch it again, but it seemed he hit his break shots relatively easy and kept control of the cue ball. Then a few shots in, he got an angle to go into the rest of the rack, with an insurance ball. His cue ball control was very nice. Seldom did any of the balls go above the side pocket. Very nice.