Is the Cue Market Dead Now and Forever?

[Nostroke]

Vanguard intermediate tax free (Admiral). 7.3% last year, approximately 5% since inception. Comparative after tax should be a couple percent higher compared to taxable investments. Just an example.

That was the NET ASSET VALUE increase last year not the yield. Bonds Values have increased for a ton of years now while the yields have gone down because interest rates have gone down across the board resulting in the bond price itself being bid up to reach parity with the current interest rate market. Net Asset value increase is NOT non taxable, only the yield is and you only gain that NAV increase if you sell!! When interest rates start to climb, NAV will and must go down. It looked like the actual non taxable yield last year was under 2% and that is what you would get approximstely in yield if you bought that fund now.

Im not a pro and i have more experience in stocks but ive had some in bonds and that is how it is imo.

 

[cuesblues]

Yes the cue market is dead..... Mainly because there are so many people here who give these cue makers endless amounts of money to make a cue... or.... to be bumped to the head of their prospective lists.... The end result is a cue custom built for the liking of one man that will ultimately be used to prop the coffin open when the guy who originally bought it dies...!:thumbup:

and have a nice day>>:smile:

 

[book collector]

The collectibles market for everything has taken a huge hit.
It's not just pool cues.
You can call it whatever you want , recession, depression , no change at all, or even better than ever , whatever makes you happy.
I know people who are 1 paycheck from the street and I know millionaires, none of them are spending money like they did 6 years ago.
The broke people aren't buying anything , if they spend money, it's on booze to forget how bad they have it or lottery tickets , praying to get lucky.
The ones with money still buy, but they know they are in the drivers seat and they are going to get their moneys worth and more or they aren't buying.
The really cheap and the really rare , will always sell , the intermediate stuff you either hang on to and hope the market comes back , or get what you can and try to put the money in something else and hope that gets you even.

 

[WildWing]

That was the NET ASSET VALUE increase last year not the yield. Bonds Values have increased for a ton of years now while the yields have gone down because interest rates have gone down across the board resulting in the bond price itself being bid up to reach parity with the current interest rate market. Net Asset value increase is NOT non taxable, only the yield is and you only gain that NAV increase if you sell!! When interest rates start to climb, NAV will and must go down. It looked like the actual non taxable yield last year was under 2% and that is what you would get in yield if you bought that fund now.

Im not a pro and i have more experience in stocks but ive had some in bonds and that is how it is imo.

Nice set of edits there, whatever they must have been. My return with dividends and price change in that fund was approximately 7% the past year. Considering taxes weren't taken from the return, it's more like 9% at my tax bracket compared to other investments that would have returned the same, if taxable. Of course you only gain if you sell. That goes for cues also, which is the subject. By the way, my other investments do better; the bonds are the lowest. I was just using that as a basic example here.

But back to the subject, show me a cue portfolio bought since the 1990s that has done much better than even that. That's what the subject is. Not some one-cue stellar piece, but a whole collection in that time, sales receipts from buy to sell. A bit of a scientific test, to see an average annual return much better than that. By the way, cue sales are taxable.

Cues are a wonderful hobby especially if you can play decently. But when it comes to investments, I'm no fool. I'll stick to stocks, bonds, securities, real estate, and (very occasionally), foreign currencies.

 

[skins]

But back to the subject, show me a cue portfolio bought since the 1990s that has done much better than even that. That's what the subject is. Not some one-cue stellar piece, but a whole collection in that time, sales receipts from buy to sell. A bit of a scientific test, to see an average annual return much better than that. By the way, cue sales are taxable.

There are MANY cue "portfolios" that have demolished that return %. You just aren't privy to them. Just one example, I met a collector that bought 8 fancy inlaid SW cues in 1999 for $2,700 apiece... They are now worth in realistic $ between 11k and 20k with an average around 13k+... 22k to 104k+... Not bad huh.... Oh yeah not to mention all the other SW he bought earlier in the 90's.. A total of over 40 all under $1300... Oh yeah and the Szams and Schicks and Kersenbrocks and many more....

 

[WildWing]

There are MANY cue "portfolios" that have demolished that return %. You just aren't privy to them. Just one example, I met a collector that bought 8 fancy inlaid SW cues in 1999 for $2,700 apiece... They are now worth in realistic $ between 11k and 20k with an average around 13k+... 22k to 104k+... Not bad huh.... Oh yeah not to mention all the other SW he bought earlier in the 90's.. A total of over 40 all under $1300... Oh yeah and the Szams and Schicks and Kersenbrocks and many more....

Not to deny there aren't some shining examples. But, 104K will keep you eating for a year, not much more. I don't think you meant Szams, that was before 90, no?

But, number of people financing their retirements with cue investments?

Number of people financing their retirements with stocks, bonds, securities, real estate?

 

[Nostroke]

Nice set of edits there, whatever they must have been. My return with dividends and price change in that fund was approximately 7% the past year. Considering taxes weren't taken from the return, it's more like 9% at my tax bracket compared to other investments that would have returned the same, if taxable. Of course you only gain if you sell. That goes for cues also, which is the subject. By the way, my other investments do better; the bonds are the lowest. I was just using that as a basic example here.

But back to the subject, show me a cue portfolio bought since the 1990s that has done much better than even that. That's what the subject is. Not some one-cue stellar piece, but a whole collection in that time, sales receipts from buy to sell. A bit of a scientific test, to see an average annual return much better than that. By the way, cue sales are taxable.

Cues are a wonderful hobby especially if you can play decently. But when it comes to investments, I'm no fool. I'll stick to stocks, bonds, securities, real estate, and (very occasionally), foreign currencies.

Ill just repeat that the nav increase has nothing to do with the non taxable designation of Muni Bond YIELDS and NAV is guaranteed to go down when/if interest rates rise.

I am not advocating anyone invest in cues lol-far from it- I was just taking issue with part of your post which i quote "A good tax free muni fund will return about 6 to 7 percent " No one knows what it will return-we only reasonably know what the yield will be at present prices which is approximately 2%

 

[skins]

Not to deny there aren't some shining examples. But, 104K will keep you eating for a year, not much more. I don't think you meant Szams, that was before 90, no?

But, number of people financing their retirements with cue investments?

Number of people financing their retirements with stocks, bonds, securities, real estate?

There are a lot more "shining examples" than you know. And YES I meant Szams (Barry)....

Ok back to you, name 1 person you know using your investment strategy of bonds with a similar initial investment who has increased their "portfolio" 5 fold in that short of time.... Yeah... none....

 

[CrossBone Cue]

I don't think its dead totally. If you have something that is of good quality, at a fair labor/material price and its different from the next guy, you will stay busy and sell everything you make. That could go for about any business out there.
Steve

 

[asiasdad]

All this talk of dead cue market and Keith literally can't keep up with demand. Both local and international sales are booming, and the best part??? No one is flipping Keith Kues. They buy them, then play with them.

Maybe the cue world just needs more players/buyers. Then again, maybe people ask ridiculous money for their stuff. If your cue is for sale, and no one is buying, I have bad news. You're asking too much...

IF that is all true, then why have I not been able to pull 2800 out of a mint
condition 3800 Hanssen cue ?????

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=392672

 

[63Kcode]

And I thought cues and cue collecting was about enjoyment. The ROI would be the joy of owning and using. Any $ increase would be an added plus. As long as the economy stays slow. All collectibles will remain flat or decrease. Except those that catch the attention of the very wealth.

Larry

 

[Texdance]

We have built 3 or 4 unbelievable collections over the last 3 or so years. <snip>
JV

What makes a great collection of cues?

Maybe knowing what constitutes 'an unbelievable collection' will help understand why certain cues go unsold for so long here on AZB.

 

[WildWing]

There are a lot more "shining examples" than you know. And YES I meant Szams (Barry)....

Ok back to you, name 1 person you know using your investment strategy of bonds with a similar initial investment who has increased their "portfolio" 5 fold in that short of time.... Yeah... none....

I thought you meant Gus, not Barry.

Remember, as I said, my total strategy is not just bonds, it includes stocks, real estate, and securities. Since, 1999, you're right, it hasn't gone up 5 times. It's gone up 14 times. That's a lot of time, remember.

I think you consider this a fight, whereas I don't. I love cues, since my first Palmer in 1973. Then a Joss in 1976, several Tim Scruggs, Richard Black, and Jerry Rauenzahns since then. I'm a fan of cues, and I play a pretty respectable game. But, if cues were a great overall investment, this thread wouldn't exist. If you take all the shining examples, and then add all the people selling on the for sale section, having to drop, and drop their prices, well, you get the point.

Pool is a great sport, but still a bit obscure to be considered an investment with respect to cues. It's not quite like fine art, at least yet. I don't think we're disagreeing as much as you might think. The overall average resale would drag down the high end quite a bit.

 

[skins]

And I thought cues and cue collecting was about enjoyment. The ROI would be the joy of owning and using. Any $ increase would be an added plus. As long as the economy stays slow. All collectibles will remain flat or decrease. Except those that catch the attention of the very wealth.

Larry

Agreed.... I collect what I like and enjoy that. I just happen to like expensive cues AND I enjoy that.

Those that catch the attention of the very wealthy, or me for that matter whom is not wealthy, do so for good reason.... Your next Larry :wink:

 

[cleary]

I think people are starting to realize that it's kind of bullshit to pay 5 figures for a cue. also the maket is flooded and everyone makes a good cue anymore.

 

[skins]

You mentioned bonds NOT ANY investment. That's just ridiculous. Any normal investment has not even come close to 14 "times" increase in the same time frame.. Most of us are just climbing out from a huge loss from 8 years ago.....Who's talking "shining stars" now....

I thought you meant Gus, not Barry.

Remember, as I said, my total strategy is not just bonds, it includes stocks, real estate, and securities. Since, 1999, you're right, it hasn't gone up 5 times. It's gone up 14 times. That's a lot of time, remember.

I think you consider this a fight, whereas I don't. I love cues, since my first Palmer in 1973. Then a Joss in 1976, several Tim Scruggs, Richard Black, and Jerry Rauenzahns since then. I'm a fan of cues, and I play a pretty respectable game. But, if cues were a great overall investment, this thread wouldn't exist. If you take all the shining examples, and then add all the people selling on the for sale section, having to drop, and drop their prices, well, you get the point.

Pool is a great sport, but still a bit obscure to be considered an investment with respect to cues. It's not quite like fine art, at least yet. I don't think we're disagreeing as much as you might think. The overall average resale would drag down the high end quite a bit.

 

[Walkermine]

And I thought cues and cue collecting was about enjoyment. The ROI would be the joy of owning and using. Any $ increase would be an added plus. As long as the economy stays slow. All collectibles will remain flat or decrease. Except those that catch the attention of the very wealth.

Larry

Totally agree.

If everyone is trying to sell, of course the market will be slow. Supply far out paces demand these days. The list of CMs putting out mid-level player cues has grown significantly over what it was 15 years ago, the ranks of players haven't.

Paul

 

[skins]

I think people are starting to realize that it's kind of bullshit to pay 5 figures for a cue. also the maket is flooded and everyone makes a good cue anymore.

Why do YOU think someone would pay 5 figures for a cue. NOW add these reasons:

They want something they can't get built by anyone else...
They want something that brings back the nestalgia they once new....
They want something that no one else can do....
They want something that is so well made AND rare and want to be one of the few....
They want, they want, they want and can afford it...Get my point

Funny part is their wants and expectations of them are delivered 10 fold upon delivery leading to my point which is those 5 figure makers are more than worth it to "they"....

Feel free to do as you want but let others do as they would without ridicule as well...

 

[63Kcode]

Agreed.... I collect what I like and enjoy that. I just happen to like expensive cues AND I enjoy that.

Those that catch the attention of the very wealthy, or me for that matter whom is not wealthy, do so for good reason.... Your next Larry :wink:

I didn't say. You had to be wealthy to have good taste!

Larry

 

[WildWing]

You mentioned bonds NOT ANY investment. That's just ridiculous. Any normal investment has not even come close to 14 "times" increase in the same time frame.. Most of us are just climbing out from a huge loss from 8 years ago.....Who's talking "shining stars" now....

Woah, easy there. 2008 has fully recovered and more. If you haven't been in that, you've been in the wrong investments. I did mention investments other than bonds earlier, I just also said a bond return would outstrip the entire cue return field, not necessarily just your high end. The past several years, by the way, growth and value funds have returned well over 20, in fact 30% in a lot of cases. Since 1999, the overall growth I mentioned is probably something closer to 15% on an annual basis, it's not as much as it sounds.

I was hoping you were at least going to compliment me on my cue selection choices. I certainly think yours are great, especially the Tascarellas, as I'm a fan of the traditional designs.