Fear of Feel

[Patrick Johnson]

So in other words if a person is calculating the shot with a combination of visual contact point to contact point aiming, ghostball and ghostball center, aiming the tip at some point on the ball with a final manipulation of the tip just because the entire picture doesn't look right...that's feel. OK, I see what you're saying.

Yes, and if a person does his special "system dance", complete with "hip pivots", "sweeps" and "visuals from another dimension", he's also aiming by feel - only probably more so (and, of course, obliviously).

Glad we agree.

pj
chgo

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Are they aiming with the feel in their hands, entire body, or eyes? LoL - playing pool just be feel seems silly, especially when women are much more in touch with their feelings.....seems like they would dominate the sport if this was the case.

What part of the mind do they think this "feel" comes from, the conscious, or subconscious? The "right brain," or the "left brain"?

You are really something. With all your talk about feeling the shot with the eyes, making connections, playing in the dark, the power of the subconscious, and on and on with all the mystical mumbo jumbo. Now you're coming on here mocking players who claim they play exactly that way?

Which CJ Wiley are we supposed to believe? The one it's convenient for you to be at the time?

BTW you need only look at your own enormous diagram for the answer to your silly question. Feel comes from the right side of the brain, with a little help from the pre-frontal cortex to assist in focus. In fact, you can analyze with your left brain all day long, but when it comes time to actually pull the trigger (implementation), it's your right brain that gives the command.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

???

I really resent this constant use of the word "guesswork" from aiming system supporters. I don't know how other aim, but there is no guesswork involved in the way I make a shot. It's kinda like asking a concert violinist if he is just guessing when he jumps up to the fifth position and perfectly nails a note on a fretless fingerboard... ev-er-y frickin' time.

He isn't guessing, he just knows the note is there, and he hits it spot on. Nothing else would be acceptable in the classical music world. When he began as a child, his fingers were all over the place, producing pure rubbish and a scratchy tone. Without frets to stop the strings precisely at the correct length, he must slowly learn over the course of thousands of hours - and with the scantest of references - exactly where each and every note on the fingerboard lies.

Over the years, our little prodigy morphs into a masterful player... one bad note at a time. This is what I mean by "feel". And don't mistake the fact that the fingers are touching the fingerboard, and so, provide the feel through actual physical contact. That's not the feel I am speaking of. Rather it is a type of biofeedback that takes place between the fingers, the bow, and the ears. This same type of feedback is at play when someone learns to play pool by feel (HAMB) - a mere neural loop between the stroking arm, the eyes, the brain, the CB, and the pocket. And it can be just as dead-on as the concert violinist's notes are.

BTW I hate the word "feel" for this phenomenon because it is often (conveniently) misinterpreted as having a physical connection to the balls, which of course, is not allowed. I prefer "judgment", "intuition", "table sense", or even CJ Wiley's (a definite feel player, like many top pros) "Kentucky windage". Unfortunately, I didn't invent the nomenclature used by pool players.

Oh... I'll start the list for you. Lou Figueroa is without a doubt a feel player. Your turn.

If you're playing pool with the accuracy of a concert musician who rarely if ever misses a note, you must be an incredible player that has a 90% + shooting average at all times. I'm impressed. What was your name again so I can check past tournament records? Btw, a concert violinist doesn't use his/her eyes to hit the notes like a pool player does to play pool.

Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, and Jeff Healy were 100% feel players in music. I never saw or heard of a blind pool player who pocketed balls well.

Lou states that he just sees the shot which I interpret as visualizing the exact impact position of the CB on the OB and knowing it will go in. I've done that myself many times over the years and would agree it's a method of playing by feel.

However, it works best when you get in dead stroke and couldn't miss even if you were looking at a hot waitress off to the side while stroking. It's very fleeting and unreliable when you aren't in dead stroke.

Lou isn't a professional player either nor shoots like one especially in rotation games where missing a shot usually means a loss of game. Lou struggles from time to time like everyone does and seeks improvement through his PSR which is an ongoing process.

CJ Wiley aims with his eyes and uses his own specific system for pocketing accuracy and plays the rest of the game by feel.

 

[stan shuffett]

Yes, and if a person does his special "system dance", complete with "hip pivots", "sweeps" and "visuals from another dimension", he's also aiming by feel - only probably more so (and, of course, obliviously).

Glad we agree.

pj
chgo

How could you know? ..you have not bothered to learn CTE.

You don't know what you don't know

Stan Shuffett

 

[DTL]

......................

 

[cfrandy]

Are they aiming with the feel in their hands, entire body, or eyes? LoL - playing pool just by feel seems silly, especially when women are much more in touch with their feelings.....seems like they would dominate the sport if this was the case.
QUOTE]

I love this! I must let my wife know she can indeed beat me...all she needs to do is play by feel!

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Yes, and if a person does his special "system dance", complete with "hip pivots", "sweeps" and "visuals from another dimension", he's also aiming by feel - only probably more so (and, of course, obliviously).

Glad we agree.

pj
chgo

I doubt we'll ever agree. How a know-it-all like yourself can be totally clueless is beyond me.

I guess we'd call your system of seeing exact OB contact point to CB contact point with the tip aiming at a specific spot non visual with no predetermination of their location. Do it to perfection with a blindfold on and you'll convince me.

Otherwise you admit to using a specific visual aiming system, just different from mine. Maybe we do agree.

 

[cookie man]

Yes, of course - straight in the direction you want the tip to be moving at contact.

Since any cue ball action can be produced with a straight stroke, why would you do anything else?

pj
chgo

So when a player lines up with inside english but uses outside on the final stroke he's not gaining anything, just doing something he learned to do but probably shouldn't. Correct?

 

[cookie man]

What do YOU mean by the "aiming line"?

Is it:
1. The shot line, a line through the center of the CB to the center of the ghost ball, or
2. The CP to CP line, a line that connects where the CB and OB must hit each other in order for the OB to go into the pocket, or
3. The stick line, a line down wherever the stick is pointing, or
4. The sight line, a line down one's center of vision?

........or something else?

DTL

So when u see the shot do u shoot straight down that line, however u do it, for centerball hit. And when using left or right do u just move parallel to your line ?

 

[lfigueroa]

I think it all come down to the dichotomy between reductionism and holism. The reductionists are convinced that true understanding can best (only?) be reached by dissecting and analyzing smaller and smaller parts of a problem. The holists realize that the sum of all these parts is sometimes (often?) a very different entity.

Reductionists are a smug lot by nature, because they can provide proof of each and every component they have broken the problem into. Holists OTOH have no possible way to demonstrate that the aggregate of these components often leads to a different thing than what was originally being analyzed.

Modern medicine suffers greatly from this phenomenon. The internists will look at all your "numbers", and both diagnose and treat you based entirely on those findings. A holistic physician will be more concerned about your stress levels, weight, diet, exercise habits, family history, overall physical condition, remaining life expectancy, etc. He will also listen to you, touch you, notice your posture and facial expressions, and numerous other things, recognizing that you are a unique organism who responds to his environmental input in a unique way.

I just turned 63, and as a birthday present on my special day, my doctor called me and told me that my recent blood work confirmed his suspicions (based upon recent complaints) that I am now Type-2 diabetic. Through all those years of looking at my blood glucose levels and seeing that they were just shy of the diabetic range, I was never once advised to cut back on carbs because I was slowly becoming insulin-resistant. In fact, I was always advised to increase the carbs and cut back on fats in order to lose weight.

When I asked my doc why I had always gotten this advise, he simply said, "We were wrong. That's why we are seeing an epidemic of obesity and diabetes today."

:angry:

So, what does all this have to do with how we play pool?

The reductionists, who favor a mechanistic approach to the game, will always be prying it apart into as many parts as they can think of, and trying to improve each part with the idea that their (anyones?) game will improve as a result.

The holists, who favor the "big picture", will have a more organic approach, favoring experience, mindfulness of their movements, focus, recall, and that illusive thing called "feel". They will use the knowledge where it is appropriate, but they will try to practice and play by instinct. They will recognize that each player's game is as individual as a fingerprint. Unlike a fingerprint, however, it may take decades to become established.

Which type of players are better? I couldn't tell you. This much I know, however. If I had to play the game "by the numbers" instead of experiencing and reveling in the feel and "table sense" that comes with time, I'd never pick up a stick again... no matter how many world beaters I could crush.

I use the science but once I approach a shot I let the science go. For me, it's all about my PSR and relying on it to get all my body parts in the right place. If I'm deploying the right PSR (and believe me, it has morphed dozens and dozens of times over the years), once I get down on the shot I'm already lined up to pocket the ball. I'm just looking at my tip, the CB, OB, and perhaps the pocket if its in my line of sight. In fact, when my PSR is working, I not only see the shot to pocket the ball, I can easily visualize the path the CB is going to take after contact with the OB. Then there is perhaps a minute last moment adjustment -- maybe a little bit of this or a little bit of that or a little less or more speed. That's often just to adjust for playing conditions, like the cloth or how much the balls are throwing.

All of this is the result of thousands of hours of play, successes and failures. If you've been playing and paying attention, you build up a memory bank of shots, strokes, and effects. If you haven't been paying attention you will always be guessing... maybe a system would help

Lou Figueroa

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...you have not bothered to learn CTE

I also haven't bothered to learn ESP.

pj <- so much to learn; so little time
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So when a player lines up with inside english but uses outside on the final stroke he's not gaining anything, just doing something he learned to do but probably shouldn't. Correct?

It depends on how he uses outside on the final stroke. If he changes the direction of his stroke during the stroke, then he definitely shouldn't.

pj
chgo

 

[stan shuffett]

I also haven't bothered to learn ESP.

pj <- so much to learn; so little time
chgo

Nice joke! Joker!

Stan Shuffett

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

If you're playing pool with the accuracy of a concert musician who rarely if ever misses a note, you must be an incredible player that has a 90% + shooting average at all times. I'm impressed. What was your name again so I can check past tournament records? Btw, a concert violinist doesn't use his/her eyes to hit the notes like a pool player does to play pool.

Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, and Jeff Healy were 100% feel players. I never saw or heard of a blind pool player who pocketed balls well.

Lou states that he just sees the shot which I interpret as visualizing the exact impact position of the CB on the OB and knowing it will go in. I've done that myself many times over the years and would agree it's a method of playing by feel.

However, it works best when you get in dead stroke and couldn't miss even if you were looking at a hot waitress off to the side while stroking. It's very fleeting and unreliable when you aren't in dead stroke.

Lou isn't a professional player either nor shoots like one especially in rotation games where missing a shot usually means a loss of game. Lou struggles from time to time like everyone does and seeks improvement through his PSR which is an ongoing process.

You fail to see the point, but I already knew that because of the way you tried to set me up.

Yes, violinists don't play with their eyes, they play with another sense that has absolutely nothing to do with their finger placement - their hearing. Same type of feedback phenomenon, but maybe you just can get these things, as evidenced by your inane comparison between blind musicians and blind pool players.

I play pool about as well as I play the violin. I used to hit the notes pretty good when I played a lot (just a "banger" blues fiddler), but I never spent 8-12 hours a days for years practicing scales and arpeggios, so I do dog enough of them. I also never played pool 8-12 hours a day like most pros have. Makes sense my accomplishments in both areas are so unimpressive. Maybe that's why you haven't heard of my tournament successes. Lol

You don't have to be in dead stroke to pocket balls well by feel. I don't think I've ever experienced true dead stroke in my life, and yet when I am shooting at my very best I don't miss too much. Making balls suddenly seems easy, even lower percentage shots, and I don't really have to think about anything. I line up to what looks right, and usually one or two stoke them in. Then it fades and I'm back to missing some.

What I don't do at that point is to try to break everything down into tiny components and analyze what I'm doing wrong (reductionism). If I do that I'm toast. Instead, I just try to get my focus back again. Focus is the key, at least for me. But hey, I'm 63 and practice maybe a hour a day tops. Imagine what a guy with my supernatural ability to feel the shots could do if I was 16 and played around the clock?

BTW it's not shotmaking that ever held me back, it's all the other parts of the game that kept me at a low level. You can make shots all day long, but you will lose your bankroll if you can't kick out of a good safety, or lay one down if you have no makable shot on the table.

You wanted a list of screen names, but I've only seen a few of you guys actually play. All I could go on is what they post here. Can I go outside the box and name a player who I think is a holistic player? OK... I nominate Jayson Shaw. And Neil can be my first reductionist player.

 

[cookie man]

It depends on how he uses outside on the final stroke. If he changes the direction of his stroke during the stroke, then he definitely shouldn't.

pj
chgo

If he lines with inside and shoots outside he definitely changes direction. Ever try it ?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I also haven't bothered to learn ESP.

pj <- so much to learn; so little time
chgo

You don't have to "learn" ESP because you've been naturally blessed with it. The word "feel" is your go to word to describe your gift to make it more acceptable.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

(and believe me, it has morphed dozens and dozens of times over the years)

Gosh, does that mean you are a reductionist, because you, ya know (gasp) worked on your game over the years?

That's what Dave seems to be implying. Anything but perpetual dead stroke puts you out of the Feel Players Club and into the League of Analysis by Paralysis.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If he lines with inside and shoots outside he definitely changes direction. Ever try it ?

Not necessarily - he could pivot before stroking. That's what I'd recommend - although I don't know why he'd line up with inside in the first place, unless he just likes making things harder.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

What I don't do at that point is to try to break everything down into tiny components and analyze what I'm doing wrong (reductionism). If I do that I'm toast. Instead, I just try to get my focus back again. Focus is the key, at least for me. But hey, I'm 63 and practice maybe a hour a day tops. Imagine what a guy with my supernatural ability to feel the shots could do if I was 16 and played around the clock?

What makes you think anybody who uses a visual aiming system (any aiming system) to set themselves up to shoot a shot uses tiny components to analyze it if they miss?

If I knew then what I now know about women and my supernatural ability to BS at 16, I wouldn't be wasting my time in a pool room like I really did in my misspent youth.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Gosh, does that mean you are a reductionist, because you, ya know (gasp) worked on your game over the years?

That's what Dave seems to be implying. Anything but perpetual dead stroke puts you out of the Feel Players Club and into the League of Analysis by Paralysis.

Your implication of what you deem to be my implication is dead wrong. There is no analysis by paralysis, ever!

Only some little "tweaks" and more attention to be paid in the visual process to home in on clarity for cue and ball alignment. That's why it's called aiming.