That's cool. 31 page thread. Who'd bother to read the entire thing anyway? You could play 31 racks of 9-ball in that time and you'd actually have something useful when you were done.
Fear of Feel
- Thread starter Patrick Johnson
- Start date
That's cool. 31 page thread. Who'd bother to read the entire thing anyway? You could play 31 racks of 9-ball in that time and you'd actually have something useful when you were done.
Always focused on the argument I see. They could be wrong but then again it's usually the better players that u see doing it so there must be something to it. Care to tell us why they might be doing it?
Hey Big E,
What are your personal observations from watching this in person? What do you think is going on?
Best,
Mike
I thought I was being nice. Funny how we see that differently, huh?
If you're talking about swiping the CB with a curved stroke; I don't believe there's anything to it but bad technique. Maybe they learned it from somebody who didn't know better. Better players, especially pros, are so good at it that we tend to think there must be something to it even if there isn't.
They could be cueing at the base of the ball as a center ball starting alignment. Or maybe it's just a habit that makes no sense except that's how they "feel" best - or maybe not even that. They're human.
pj
chgo
I think this may be misinterpreted by a number of people involved in the thread.
Since you posted it, how about naming screen names for the two classifications based on a reductionist vs. a holist. Who do you think belongs in each category and why? Others can and will chime in but you first. Create a list.
I'm interested is seeing if those who are promoting feel are playing with less feel or more feel than the others. There's more to feel than just aiming. Since aiming is VISUAL I don't know how it's categorized into feel unless feel means guesswork or last second adjustments because of being unsure. You tell me. What are the factors of the game involving feel.
Mike,
First I watched John's link below.
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Originally Posted by One Pocket John
Interesting that you should bring this up.
Begin watching at 26min 55sec.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kL9ena6j6M
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What I observed was that Shane had no problem with the instructions to demonstrate the shots with english. Then keep watching when Efren was asked to do the same and you will see that he didn't perform as instructed. If he was asked in Tagalog he would have done better, I can only surmise.
I then thought about who instructed Efren how to play pool? It has been said that after he became good, that he would watch other shooters miss a shot with unintended consequences and that he would remember those results for future use.
That's strong...I say.
He probably taught himself most of what he knows and used whatever worked for him to get better. He can learn though for he was taught how to play One Hole strategy (he could make those shots already).
He often adopted starting his aim with the cue tip at the bottom of the CB. It has been asked here if he moves his tip to the precise location on the CB before he impacts it by moving his bridge or with BHE or is it a continuous motion or both that can appear to some as a "swipe". It all happens so fast I can only surmise what he does.
Then searching for a possible answer I found this.
Mat Sherman About Sports:
When shooting pool with english, you are likely to miss your target or miscue without using the methods I describe. Here are reasons to shoot with carabao english or parallel english.
What I mean by taking your "best worst pool stroke" refers to the little known pro technique, today called "carabao english," referring to the Filipino pros including Efren Reyes, "The Magician," who popularized the style.
Carabao is a Filipino water buffalo. Buffalo leather is a popular cue tip material, and there you have it. What looks like an awful pool stroke, curving and twisted, is a powerful way to shoot sidespin or "english" without a miss.
2 Wrong Ways And 1 Right Way For Shooting Pool With English
The carabao stroke is taken by aiming as normal using what I call a "shoot through" center ball stroke , before--and importantly, only on the final stroke forward, not the backstroke--moving the shooting hand to one side for generating english!
In other words, take a regular stroke, and if you want, say, bottom left english, at the last moment move your hand UP and RIGHT to shoot down and left through the cue ball.
The magic of this stroke is that its momentum is mostly taken forward with a little momentum out to the side. This reduces if not eliminates aim adjustment--the cue ball will still propel forward right at the target.
Only rarely, if ever, should you shoot english with a pivot stroke, where the cue stick is swiveled to one side through your bridge hand before you stroke back and through. Wrong!
The third technique for shooting pool with english, and nearly as safe as carabao, is a parallel english stroke, with a stroke parallel to the line of aim but with both hands moved to shoot english to the side.
http://billiards.about.com/od/stroketechniques/a/Shooting-Pool-With-English.htm
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Next time I see Efren I will ask him what he does, but that would be after I learn to speak and understand Tagalog. Maybe he does what he does without knowing how to describe what he does. Maybe he will describe it and I won't comprehend what he means from his perspective?
Thanks for your interest.
Be well.
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I recognize that what is being reffered to here as Carabao English is what we are referring to as Swipinng the English on the ball which for a lot of practical purposes is an FHE type adjustment. This was the way I spun the ball in my youth and there isnt as much adjustment until you start stroking the ball hard but then the adjustment is less than a traditional Parallel Adjustment in most cases.
FHE is a type of adjustment made by tilting the cue sideways at the front no matter how it gets done, its best done with an ideal bridge length to prevent misses squirt less.
LAMas,
Thanks for that detailed response. I noticed a slightly different address when Efren shoots with left spin. Not much, but more of a swipe/BHE type of stroke. That must be the water buffalo stroke. :wink: Who knew?
Another key is the mention of stroking through the cue ball. This how I feel rather than moving off of the cue ball in any direction. It's a much more solid feel to the hit, rather than a stroke where the tip is glancing off of the cue ball.
Have you tried to do anything with this yet?
Best,
Mike
Thanks for that detailed response. I noticed a slightly different address when Efren shoots with left spin. Not much, but more of a swipe/BHE type of stroke. That must be the water buffalo stroke. :wink: Who knew?
Another key is the mention of stroking through the cue ball. This how I feel rather than moving off of the cue ball in any direction. It's a much more solid feel to the hit, rather than a stroke where the tip is glancing off of the cue ball.
Have you tried to do anything with this yet?
Best,
Mike
Do you equate confidence in your aim with absence of feel? Feel simply means subconscious recognition of the correct shot picture. Your confidence in it shows your skill at it, not the nature of it.
We aren't capable of consciously "calculating" the choice with enough accuracy, even with the help of a system; there are simply too many possibilities, too much needed precision. The final choice must be made by our subconscious supercomputer, out of sight and our conscious control - that's feel.
You can be absolutely certain of your aim and be aiming entirely by feel.
pj
chgo
???
I'm not quite sure what your intentions are here.
For one, I really don't care if my writing is misinterpreted or not. I believe it's clear enough as it stands. Secondly, I really don't feel like making a list of members here and categorizing them along the lines you suggest. You are the one questioning it, why don't you make your own list?
I really resent this constant use of the word "guesswork" from aiming system supporters. I don't know how other aim, but there is no guesswork involved in the way I make a shot. It's kinda like asking a concert violinist if he is just guessing when he jumps up to the fifth position and perfectly nails a note on a fretless fingerboard... ev-er-y frickin' time.
He isn't guessing, he just knows the note is there, and he hits it spot on. Nothing else would be acceptable in the classical music world. When he began as a child, his fingers were all over the place, producing pure rubbish and a scratchy tone. Without frets to stop the strings precisely at the correct length, he must slowly learn over the course of thousands of hours - and with the scantest of references - exactly where each and every note on the fingerboard lies.
Hit it a little flat this time (miss the pocket to the left?), he tries a little higher up the fingerboard the next time. Oh... a bit sharp now (misses the pocket to the right?)... OK, try a little lower next time. Ah! That sounded nice (center pocket!)... try to place the finger exactly there the next time.
Over the years, our little prodigy morphs into a masterful player... one bad note at a time. This is what I mean by "feel". And don't mistake the fact that the fingers are touching the fingerboard, and so, provide the feel through actual physical contact. That's not the feel I am speaking of. Rather it is a type of biofeedback that takes place between the fingers, the bow, and the ears. This same type of feedback is at play when someone learns to play pool by feel (HAMB) - a mere neural loop between the stroking arm, the eyes, the brain, the CB, and the pocket. And it can be just as dead-on as the concert violinist's notes are.
BTW I hate the word "feel" for this phenomenon because it is often (conveniently) misinterpreted as having a physical connection to the balls, which of course, is not allowed. I prefer "judgment", "intuition", "table sense", or even CJ Wiley's (a definite feel player, like many top pros) "Kentucky windage". Unfortunately, I didn't invent the nomenclature used by pool players.
Oh... I'll start the list for you. Lou Figueroa is without a doubt a feel player. Your turn.
I just want to mention in passing to any young impressionable readers who don't already know it that the above "advice" is satire from a joke website.
This has been a public service announcement.
pj
chgo
... I'll start the list for you. Lou Figueroa is without a doubt a feel player. Your turn.
I'm not Dave, but I'll volunteer my name as a systems player on lower percentage shots.
1 for feel, 1 for systems.
Best,
Mike
Do u think it best to stroke straight down the aiming line?
Cool! Do you want to keep score, or should we make Dave do it?
BTW, I'll assume you are like everybody else and only attempt low-percentage shots when you have no possible safety. Does that make you a "systems player" even if you don't use the system the rest of the time? IMO if you make most shots using feel, you are a feel player even if you employ other methods at times.
I'm a fine woodworker who considers himself to be a hand tool user, but I do have plenty of power tools to use to dimension the lumber. Some guys use power tools whenever they can, and only use hand tools when the work is small, delicate, or can't be safely milled using power tools. I would consider them to be power tool users, even though they may break out a chisel or a block plane every now and then.
Mike,
Yes with an open bridge where the cue leaves the V.
I know you to be an open minded student and teacher (I have learned) of pool and might find value in the following:
More "satire" from Matt Sherman:
.2) You are correct about parallel english. Quality of stroke and amount of English are the order of the day. However, you are not stroking through the dead center of mass and you are subject to squirt, deflection and miscues. You will find little literature on backhand english online or in books or videos--it's in my book and video--and a lot of players pooh-pooh it and say carabao english doesn't help with swerve and etc. However, top players like Bustamente and Reyes, and in earlier eras, Mosconi and Greenleaf, used backhand english frequently.
.To answer your question, you control the amount of english applied with your stroke, it can be felt easily especially if you use a light grip. You can both near-eliminate squirt and deflection and generate more english than you've dreamed possible. It's worth trying for any player.
.It works because the cue comes diagonally through the shot with its center of mass far closer to the cue ball center of mass than with parallel english. You'll find people pushing it away it online. Some (a brave few not including myself!) advocate it online. Even an amateur can generate so much english it's like they took a massé stroke on the ball from a near vertical position!
.-- Matt Sherman Guide to Pool And Billiards
http://billiards.about.com/od/speci...Successfully-Begin-With-Correct-Alignment.htm
Be well
women are much more in touch with their feelings.....seems like they would dominate
Are they aiming with the feel in their hands, entire body, or eyes? LoL - playing pool just be feel seems silly, especially when women are much more in touch with their feelings.....seems like they would dominate the sport if this was the case.
What part of the mind do they think this "feel" comes from, the conscious, or subconscious? The "right brain," or the "left brain"?
Are they aiming with the feel in their hands, entire body, or eyes? LoL - playing pool just be feel seems silly, especially when women are much more in touch with their feelings.....seems like they would dominate the sport if this was the case.
What part of the mind do they think this "feel" comes from, the conscious, or subconscious? The "right brain," or the "left brain"?
As you can see, this is obviously comedy from a joke website. Nice of "Matt" to lighten things up around here.
lol - hilarious.
pj
chgo
So in other words if a person is calculating the shot with a combination of visual contact point to contact point aiming, ghostball and ghostball center, aiming the tip at some point on the ball with a final manipulation of the tip just because the entire picture doesn't look right...that's feel. OK, I see what you're saying.
Yes, of course - straight in the direction you want the tip to be moving at contact.
Since any cue ball action can be produced with a straight stroke, why would you do anything else?
pj
chgo