WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[CJ Wiley]

It's like trying to describe what an apple tastes like, or the ocean looks like

Well, I'm not claiming it's superior to a normal wrist flick stroke, which is why I'm going to keep that the way it is. Some people seem to claim that what CJ describes cannot possibly work at all, which as both you and I know is dead wrong. It works, but it is different and not necessarily better. I'm surprised someone with martial arts training wouldn't get a lot more speed this way, though..I have weak wrists and hands so I thought maybe that was holding me back a bit.. Like you say it is a bit tiring too..I forgot about that in my review.

Yes, judging this technique by how it's described in writing would be sodish. There's no way to truly understand it without access to a pool table. TOI is the same way, it's so powerful, and simply can't be communicated in a way that someone can pick up all the intricacies in writing.

It's like trying to describe what an apple tastes like, or the ocean looks like.....many things in life we have to experience to understand in our own hearts, and minds.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

CJ's right about this. Tightening the grip tends to move the hand/fingers forward, which adds acceleration.

pj
chgo

Yeah, I do that all the time, but only to increase the acceleration on a soft and very relaxed swing. It is the foundation of a good compact straight pool stroke IMO, and is great for stop shot patterns, or for nudging the CB over a few inches with a soft draw. Using it at the last instant to put "incredible" action on the CB is a bit farfetched sounding to me. Why not just use a longer stoke and constant acceleration if you need to move the ball around the table?

 

[AtLarge]

Back in the early days of this thread, I mentioned to CJ that his hammer technique reminded me of the Kali stick thrust that I learned over 20 years ago when I was studying Filipino and Indonesian stick fighting. CJ was all over that idea, and claimed that it is very similar (maybe At Large can find the interchange, I'm too disinterested in all this to look). ...

Easy to find with Search. Your post in this thread is #78 and CJ's reply is #86.

You also talked about it in post #58 of this thread: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=311057

 

[Patrick Johnson]

That "technique" also goes against almost every teacher and instructor in the history of the game. By tensing up you inherently cause a decrease in momentum.

Yes, it's usually not recommended, but I think the reason is that clenching the grip tends to move the tip offline. I haven't heard that it decreases speed.

pj
chgo

 

[SJDinPHX]

I had to try a bit to find out how it worked. For me what worked was to forget all the technical stuff. I just made practice strokes and then thought "if I wanted to increase speed by squeezing the cue, how would I go about it?". My subconscious figured out the rest.

Good words SP99..If I were to give advice to someone wanting to become an accomplished, quality player, that is exactly what I would say ! ..."Forget all the technical stuff" !..Develop a good PSR, a straight level stroke, and learn what works best for YOU !..That is what player's like Lassiter, Mosconi, Buddy Hall, (and hundreds of others) did, long before the internet came along and turned the learning process of pool, into a confusing mess of 'do's and dont's' !

Those great player's never even heard of CTE, BHE, TOI, or any of the other dozens of acronyms, the digital age is bombarding newcomer's with today !..Has anyone been able to eclipse the way Babe Ruth hit a baseball, or Jack Nicklaus hit a golf ball, or Wade Crane broke a rack of 9ball ???..Of course not !..These guys were endowed with an exceptional set of skills, which they polished, and improved without the aid of computer driven BS !

If this sounds like an 'old school' or 'old fashioned' observation, maybe it is !..But, show me where I've said anything untrue ?..Its obvious we can't all become world beater's, at ANY game !..However, all this confusing, computer contrived mumbo-jumbo, is not going to help anyone, in any way, to become the best player they can be !..And, in the words of the late, great Fat's.."You kin take dat to da bank, and get a loan in it !"

"Crying" may work just as well, as some of the advice
being offered here, on how to improve your game......
It may also make more 'sense' !

 

[JoeyA]

CJ's right about this. Tightening the grip tends to move the hand/fingers forward, which adds acceleration.

pj
chgo

Oh my! Two times in less than a month!


JoeyA

 

[AtLarge]

... Those great player's never even heard of CTE, BHE, TOI, or any of the other dozens of acronyms, the digital age is bombarding newcomer's with today ! ...

You're probably right about all the acronyms. But in the case of back-hand english, I'm sure it has been used for many decades. Mike Eufemia called it the swivel system or swivel shot.

 

[Bob Jewett]

You're probably right about all the acronyms. But in the case of back-hand english, I'm sure it has been used for many decades. Mike Eufemia called it the swivel system or swivel shot.

BHE is more or less illustrated in Kentfield's book from 1839. See the right diagram in http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/kentfield.gif
It is also recommended as the way to aim side-spin shots in a French book from about 1890.

 

[SJDinPHX]

You're probably right about all the acronyms. But in the case of back-hand english, I'm sure it has been used for many decades. Mike Eufemia called it the swivel system or swivel shot.

Mr.AtLarge...Seriously, can you (or anyone) please define what BHE really means..I know it stands for 'Back Hand English', but can you please verbalize, where it differs from what good players have been doing all along ?..I have learned what most of the acronyms stand for..But I have a lot of trouble relating to them, as a way to explain real live 'shot-making decisions' or proper stroking fundamentals !...Am I too old to grasp the 'information age' ? (I hope not :sorry

So far, I have not even read a plausible explanation for CTE, yet it appears to be the most popular aiming system of all !..And what is the difference between plain old 'CTE', and 'CTE-Pro1'..To me, that sounds like Madison Ave. ad men, trying to convince us that.."The New Improved Tide, will get clothes cleaner"...Why ???..Was the 'old Tide' garbage ?..Where does it end ?
..Whats next..'TOI Pro-Perfected II and III' ? (gimme a break )

PS..I Do not mean to sound so negative..I just feel there are better, far less confusing ways, of imparting knowledge to people eager to learn the game !

 

[Bob Jewett]

Mr.AtLarge...Seriously, can you (or anyone) please define what BHE really means..I know it stands for 'Back Hand English', but can you please verbalize, where it differs from what good players have been doing all along ? ... !

BHE has been defined clearly here and elsewhere, but I'll be glad to do it again if you missed those.

How to use "back-hand English" (BHE):

Aim the shot as if you were going to play it with center-ball. That is, your cue stick should be on the line joining the center of the cue ball and the center of the ghost ball. Keeping your bridge hand steady, and with your tip near the cue ball, move your back hand so that the tip points to the spot you want to hit on the cue ball to apply the intended English. Now stroke straight back and come straight forward with your power stroke. It's OK to take a few warmup strokes along that pivoted line if you want to before the power stroke.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Duplicate post

 

[DTL]

....................

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I remember when this man https://youtu.be/g0kvb5AwMsU came onto the scene and all of the so called striking experts claimed that his style was all wrong and they said his career would eventually show it. Boy were they wrong! They said his aggresive style lacked balance and that his looping punches, that he himself claims to throw like he is whipping his fist like they were the ball of a mace, were too looping and overextended and his style would get exposed soon. The funny thing is Igor Vovchanchin had already been dominating the scene with the same style. Now years later, after both Igor and Fedor have outstruck some of the best conventional strikers in the world, the experts have admited there might be something to this aggressive style after all. A style that they just did not understand.
https://youtu.be/JISgLclfX3c
https://youtu.be/6Ymyu6funWA

Funny, Jack Dempsey fought like that 100 years ago, to great success... until he met his match against a modern "scientific" fighter. That Fedor guy looks like a clown. He misses the target half the time and falls off balance. Only thing he can do then is grab the guy and take him to the ground. I wonder how Dempsey would have fared against Tunney if Marquess of Queensbury rules allowed takedowns. Lol

 

[LAMas]

You're probably right about all the acronyms. But in the case of back-hand english, I'm sure it has been used for many decades. Mike Eufemia called it the swivel system or swivel shot.

Is the swivel occurring during the impact stroke or before?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Thanks Bob...(still confused :embarrassed2

You may not be aware of it, but to compensate for squirt when using side spin, your cue is always "pivoted" from the center ball aim line at the same spot on its shaft*, somewhere around where you place your bridge. If you place your bridge right at that "pivot point", you can simply start with center ball aim and then move your back (grip) hand to the side to apply any amount of side spin at just the right cue angle to compensate for squirt.

That's the bare bones principle of Back Hand English (BHE). *It's actually a little more complicated than that because, as usual, "adjustments" are needed for the effects of friction (swerve and throw).

pj
chgo

 

[DTL]

...................

 

[SJDinPHX]

BHE has been defined clearly here and elsewhere, but I'll be glad to do it again if you missed those.

How to use "back-hand English" (BHE):

Aim the shot as if you were going to play it with center-ball. That is, your cue stick should be on the line joining the center of the cue ball and the center of the ghost ball. Keeping your bridge hand steady, and with your tip near the cue ball, move your back hand so that the tip points to the spot you want to hit on the cue ball to apply the intended English. Now stroke straight back and come straight forward with your power stroke. It's OK to take a few warmup strokes along that pivoted line if you want to before the power stroke.

Thanks Bob..( but I'm still confused ! :embarrassed2.. Apparently I have been using BHE all my life, I just never tried to put a label on it ! ..Its great to toss these things around, but I'm sure you agree, live, 'one on one' on a pool table is the only way to go !..Trying to verbalize the finer points of a pool stroke, can only create confusion !...CJ was right about one thing..Explaining anything pool related, is like trying to describe "how an apple tastes" !..

PS..CJ is learning...Now if we could just get the other 'Aiming System' addict's' to go along..maybe these repetitious, 2000 plus threads would disappear !

Late Edit;..Thank you also DTL and PJ...Just know that I have always considered adjusting for 'squirt and swerve', and cue ball speed and control, to be one of my strongest attributes !..If the rest of my game had been that solid,..'I coulda been a contender'!
..BTW PJ, as you can see, I'm not up on all this new terminology....'Pivot point' is pure Greek to me ! (but I guess I probably have one of those too )

 

[AtLarge]

Is the swivel occurring during the impact stroke or before?

Eufemia recommended aligning on the vertical axis, swiveling the tip off the vertical axis, taking a few warm-up strokes on the new line of the cue, and then shooting (as opposed to pivoting the stick only as the final stroke is taken).

 

[(((Satori)))]

Funny, Jack Dempsey fought like that 100 years ago, to great success... until he met his match against a modern "scientific" fighter. That Fedor guy looks like a clown. He misses the target half the time and falls off balance. Only thing he can do then is grab the guy and take him to the ground. I wonder how Dempsey would have fared against Tunney if Marquess of Queensbury rules allowed takedowns. Lol

He will always be my hero. https://youtu.be/Vs_hSABuaOk

Him and James Walden.

 

[Blaine B.]

I refer to acceleration because the cue does not simply travel at a constant speed throughout the final stroke. This is especially more noticeable when trying to achieve faster 'speed'. Also I have noticed that a smooth acceleration has a tendency to impart more spin with less effort.

I do agree with your second point completely it just seems that most people on this particular thread can't get to that threshold.

My cue is accelerating through the cue ball on my stroke. I don't know because I haven't really watched myself but apparently I have a flat straight stroke. What CJ is saying makes sense in my head because it's like he's in my head, we shoot with the same mindset.