Why don't cuemakers do this? More to the point why don't we let them?

JCIN said:
I have been lucky to meet and talk with almost all of the top cuemakers. The problem is the opportunity to do so is pretty rare if you are not in their backyard. They don't come out much.

I have talked to a few knifemakers and more than a few gunsmiths. For the most part they are just like cuemakers to me. All are craftsmen who made a passion into their business. As a whole some of the best people I have met.
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I'm looking forward to seeing some interviews ;)

I haven't met any knife makers, but it seems like a cool business to be in. Just placed an order with Michael Morris for a Friction Folder knife. I like my cues like I like my knives, simple, classy design, well made, and functional.
 
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jeffj2h said:
Here's how the cue makers can avoid getting harassed:

1) Accurately estimate their lead times
2) Factor into the lead time any delay caused by making a few cues a year for shows
3) Honestly tell their customers the lead time, and that its unaffected by selling cues at shows.

Too make cue makers seen either unable to predict how long it will take to make a cue or are unwilling to honestly tell their customers that.

The standard practice seems to be:

1) Have only a vague notion of the correct lead time. It will depend on how the bass fish are biting this season.
2) Tell the customer whatever lead time sounds good and will get the order.
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I might add, "Once a cue has been quoted, that is the price of the cue when it is completed." Holding a cue "hostage" for more money than quoted is a no-no.

Ken
 
Sounds reasonable and the cue makers would have a vacation paid for from the sales of the few cues that they bring. It would be a chance for them to not only do all of the things that Justin mentioned but to see a different part of the country with each location.

I especially like the idea that the cue makers get a chance to listen to a wide variety of people who might influence their creativity and their wallet.

JoeyA
 
Nice marketing idea for sure ... but is there a market for fancy eye candy cues?

I'm sure there is, however in financial times like we are living, and have been living in since 2008, I think it has to be a shrinking market.

I carry a Spyderco Delica 4 ... Think I paid $120 - $130 dollars for it about 5 years ago. It cuts everything, feels great in my hand and all that. I carry it every day and would not think of buying another knife as long as this one remains solid.

I think I represent the main stream market in pocket knives, especially in todays world ... Production knives by the Big companies can be bought for $200.00 or less and the quality is off the charts.

Now If you want a prettier more exclusive knife you can spend thousands more and buy one, but you would be part of a skinny market.

I think this same environment holds true for Custom Cue making.

Production Companies are making some very good playing cues these days .. My favorite player is a Predator that sold for $338 dollars - and I own considerably more expensive customs that look a lot cooler, but as far as playability, not so much.

If I were a high end cue maker I would attempt to adjust to the current market by expanding my product line.

Use that Big Name Recognition and offer a modest plain jane that would hit and play like the great cues you make that are so sought after...

Market your wonderful joint. Forget about making shafts, simply offer the buyer a choice of any blank he wants you to fit to his cue.

I'm talking Sneaky's and Merry Widows only adorned by your famous name.

Sell it for under $800.00 and see if you can sell 100 of them for every one of the high dollar eye candy jobs.

Just a thought.
 
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My current cue of interest is one in which the inlays are non-symmetrical and concern a specific subject (North American Indian symbols). I picture the cue as being a sneaky pete, with inlays (each of which is about the size of a quarter) of different materials (brass, mother of pearl, wood).

There are currently no cues available which feature non-symmetrical inlays: Is it that radical of an idea?

Shoot safe.

John
 
Any cue builder with a 10 year waiting list means they are lazy or they are not efficient at their job. Why do I say this? Ginacue puts these guys to shame, then again Ernie is a genius and he is making 50 Anniversary cues and they are very elaborate in design and there are many inlays.

Guess what? All 50 will be done in the next year or two. Talk about efficiency. His cues are a lot better than most so-called great cue builders too.

If Ernie can do 50 in a year or two, 3 different models, what does that make the efficiency of others? Lazy and incompetent?

50th_2.jpg
 
JCIN said:
I would think "Its awesome to see some of the greatest ever at what they do at this event. I am going to sign up and maybe get a cue four years early."

Most guys have been out of the down payment business for awhile. The ones who didn't learned the hard way why its a bad idea.
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Maybe. Or, maybe wait an extra few years while the guy builds cues for people who never ordered one.
 
dom_poppa said:
Any cue builder with a 10 year waiting list means they are lazy or they are not efficient at their job. Why do I say this? Ginacue puts these guys to shame, then again Ernie is a genius and he is making 50 Anniversary cues and they are very elaborate in design and there are many inlays.

Guess what? All 50 will be done in the next year or two. Talk about efficiency. His cues are a lot better than most so-called great cue builders too.

If Ernie can do 50 in a year or two, 3 different models, what does that make the efficiency of others? Lazy and incompetent?

50th_2.jpg
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If 50 cues in 2 years, 25 cues a year, is efficient what would be an example of inefficient?
 
Ken_4fun said:
I might add, "Once a cue has been quoted, that is the price of the cue when it is completed." Holding a cue "hostage" for more money than quoted is a no-no.

Ken
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Agreed.

And if you don't know exactly how much it's going to be when you quote the customer, the quote them a range. There is nothing wrong with a quote of "$2200-$2600, depending on variables A, B and C." If the customer doesn't want to accept that, then that's fine. It would be pretty unreasonable not to, though.
 
Go to the Cue Collectors Show.
Many fine cuemakers exhibit and it is open to the public on Saturday.

Go to Ken Kerners cue show.

Go to the Midwest Cue show.

Bill S.
 
ghost ball said:
50 MONSTER cues in 2 years...
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Didn't he already start that project 2 years ago?
Let's not forget, Ernie already has a multi-MILLION dollar shop.
IF SW moved in there, they would easily do 4 times the volume they do now .
The climate in Burbank is ideal for cue making as well.
There's a big reason, movie studios are there.
 
Ginacue is basically the benchmark on how to run a proper custom shop. Meeting demand and still getting that high dollar sales.

Didn't he design or build all of his machines? Just adds on to the legend.

JCIN did a fantastic interview with him too.
 
DAVE_M said:
Even then, if the best in the world makes 10 cues per year, that's 10 cues they already have sold to a customer. They would either need to increase production or make a few customers wait.

The knife industry stays well off, because there are a lot of smaller makers doing high quality work. Whereas the cue industry is full of low end garbage and only a few high quality makers.



The problem comes with those cuemakers not wanting to attend shows, because it's more money out of their pocket and they already have a their books filled with orders, so they think it doesn't benefit them. While I would love to see a cue show, like Blade and The Gathering, it will probably never happen.
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JCIN said:
Its simple math. If they can make 100 cues a year and they have 1000 orders thats what it is.

Its not unusual. Ferrarri doesnt ramp up production because more people want one than can own one on certain models. They raise the price.
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Its very much a paradox. A cue maker gains popularity and his demand increase exponentially. This drives the aftermarket price up. Then prospect buyers who can afford to pay the aftermarket price just say **** it and eat the price tag. This creates the illusion that a $3000 cue hits 10 times better than a $300 cue. As a result those smaller makers don't pick up all that much. The secondary market for "mid tier" or "bottom tier" customs is virtually none existent. There are some "secret" cue makers that probably build as high quality of a cue if not higher than southwest, but the design and name is what dictates the price. The difference between cues and Ferraris is anybody can build a cue. If you cleaned the logo off a low end production cue and put a high end makers name on it you'd be able to make 5 times more than what you paid for.

Should more of the top makers get the heck out of the shop and to some expos. Absolutely! I'd love to meet them in person. However, they may feel obligated to stick with the "list."
 
dom_poppa said:
Ginacue is basically the benchmark on how to run a proper custom shop. Meeting demand and still getting that high dollar sales.

Didn't he design or build all of his machines? Just adds on to the legend.

JCIN did a fantastic interview with him too.
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The TAD shop does well too.
 
JCIN said:
Its going to take me a minute to get to the point but stick with me here....

Over the past few years I have gotten into custom knives. The parallels between the custom knife market and the custom cue market are many:

-They both are made up of mostly one man shops and a few larger ones.

-Both have tiers of makers with the top guys being almost impossible to get work from directly and when one does buy direct from a top maker they can usually flip for a profit immediately if they want.

-The huge difference between the two is that the top knifemakers seem to be much more active in the community both online and at shows.

The reason I bring this all up is that I have talked to a few cuemakers and asked why no one in cues does what the knife guys do in regards to doing one or two trade shows/expos a year. With knife makers even guys who have closed books and long wait lists will go to a show and bring a small number of knives to sell at the show.

Usually these are sold by raffle. You go to the makers table and there are three or four knives there with his price on them. Not the secondary market price but his direct price which almost always lower. You pick the knife you like and fill out a ticket. When its time a winner is pulled and gets to buy the knife. They also usually do a fancy knife and have it as an open bid. Highest bidder gets the knife.

The effect this has is huge. It generates buzz and excitement for the events. People know that no matter how small the chance they have a shot to get something they otherwise could not. Also there is the flipper aspect where if they want they can turn a win into cash. This buzz and excitement is also good for the makers who are not at the very top because they have more people with money in their pockets in the room. Not everyone is going to get a holy grail item but they are in the room with money in their pocket.

This is good for the event promoter because they can announce who is going to be there and that there will be a chance to get product from them. The makers post pics of the work they will be bringing sometimes to generate more interest. People get into it.

Its good for the cuemakers because they get to go to a couple events a year and make enough money to cover the trip and make a little cash over a weekend. It motivates them to attend events and participate in the community. They can also take chances by building things outside their normal work to try things. Its a win win situation for all.

Now there are only a handful of cue makers this would apply to in the pool world but I cant help but think how awesome the next Expo would be if South West, Searing, Showman, Tascarella, Hercek, Haley, Sugartree, Bluegrass and Szamboti announced they would have two to five cues each available at the show via whatever means they choose to sell them. I think the buzz would be huge.

You would have the makers at the show to talk to. They can connect with people without the pressure of having to come out of pocket to cover the expenses of the trip. Hell you could put three or four in a booth and let them spend a few hours a day in it of they want. The main point is to get the elite makers back in the wider community outside of just the hard core collector.

Now why I think this probably will not happen: Lists. Everyone is a prisoner to their list. Because they think people on the list will freak out most makers I bring this up to say it would never fly. I think thats terrible. If having a guy make and sell a few cues a year off the books is the cost of getting them out in the community sharing their knowledge and building excitement I think its ridiculous not to do it. This idea that a craftsman is an indentured servant to his list is crazy and I have seen it nowhere else outside of pool.

Now I know some will post cuemaker horror stories. I know they happen.But I would still rather have the makers, their knowledge and experience out there in the community without having to keep a low profile lest they set off someone on a list. A benefit to people on those lists could very well be that making a face to face to connection with a maker could smooth out the process.

So I just wanted to see what people think about the idea of makers coming to shows with a few off the books cues if thats what it takes to get them out and involved.
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Are the top custom knife makers really active at shows? I haven't seen it. There are only a couple of large regular shows a year. I still haven't made it to the Knife makers Guild show. Went to the Blade Show a few years ago and it sucked. Most of the guys I wanted to see either didn't bother to bring any knives and had fricking photo books or tablets showing their work, or the others only had a couple of knives for sale and acted liked complete jag offs. Some have obscene prices where other knife makers have the same thing at a fraction of the price. There are definitely a lot of similarities with cue makers. Wish I had bought the Kevin Casey damascus folder that was on the cover of Blade when he had it about 7 or 8 years ago tat he Chicago Custom Knife Show in Arlington Heights. Now you can't even get one of his for barely under $2K and that is if you can even get through the waiting list. Most of the guys I have emailed over the years basically respond that they don't even bother going to shows, maybe one a year, like Blade, Guild, Arkansas, or that NJ/NY show. Their websites are complete shit too. But yeah, there definitely needs to be more cuemaker appearances.
 
Joe_Jaguar said:
Are the top custom knife makers really active at shows? I haven't seen it. There are only a couple of large regular shows a year. I still haven't made it to the Knife makers Guild show. Went to the Blade Show a few years ago and it sucked. Most of the guys I wanted to see either didn't bother to bring any knives and had fricking photo books or tablets showing their work, or the others only had a couple of knives for sale and acted liked complete jag offs. Some have obscene prices where other knife makers have the same thing at a fraction of the price. There are definitely a lot of similarities with cue makers. Wish I had bought the Kevin Casey damascus folder that was on the cover of Blade when he had it about 7 or 8 years ago tat he Chicago Custom Knife Show in Arlington Heights. Now you can't even get one of his for barely under $2K and that is if you can even get through the waiting list. Most of the guys I have emailed over the years basically respond that they don't even bother going to shows, maybe one a year, like Blade, Guild, Arkansas, or that NJ/NY show. Their websites are complete shit too. But yeah, there definitely needs to be more cuemaker appearances.
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Do you know the history on Kevin Casey? He was considered one of the toughest guys in Compton when the Gracies first arrived in Torrance years ago. Rockson (rip) wanted to fight the toughest guy there and many locals tried to set it up. Kevin was smart though and talked his way out of a fight and into the gym to train with Rickson at the time. He lost no face either. He was good with his fists and his words. He later had issues with becoming a black belt and decided to start wearing one into the gym no matter if he was promoted or not which caused some problems between him and Kron but things settled down and he eventually recieved his real black belt. His mma carrer has not been too kind yet. His stint on TUF made him look kind of soft. And his friendship with Spencer Pratt is just plain wierd. His rap career will not succeed either, I think. I didnt know he got into knives though. I knew he liked guns but not knives. I guess you learn something new every day.
 
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(((Satori))) said:
Do you know the history on Kevin Casey? He was considered one of the toughest guys in Compton when the Gracies first arrived in Torrance years ago. I knew he liked guns but not knives. I guess you learn something new every day.
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You're joking, right? :confused:
 
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