APA "Splitting Points"

W

WillyCornbread

Break and One
Silver Member
HI all - I'm new to the APA and have played about 7 8-ball matches. There were 2 nights during this session where the matches were cancelled because of not enough players and the teams agreed to 'split the points'.

I don't want to ask my League Operator these questions because I'm not sure if this is officially even allowed so I thought I'd ask here...

1) Is this legal by APA rules?

2) What does this mean exactly, what points are split and how are they split? Do players get wins or losses? Our stats are so far behind that I can't figure it out via the APA site.

3) I need 10 matches to qualify to play in the playoffs - do split point matches count as me playing? I'm going to be pissed if I got screwed out of the playoffs because of this.

Thanks for looking -

b
 
Its not allowed.

Its manipulating scoring, which affects all the other teams, as well as affecting the handicap system.

I doubt your LO would be pleased, but nothing surprises me any longer
 
WillyCornbread said:
HI all - I'm new to the APA and have played about 7 8-ball matches. There were 2 nights during this session where the matches were cancelled because of not enough players and the teams agreed to 'split the points'.

I don't want to ask my League Operator these questions because I'm not sure if this is officially even allowed so I thought I'd ask here...

1) Is this legal by APA rules?

2) What does this mean exactly, what points are split and how are they split? Do players get wins or losses? Our stats are so far behind that I can't figure it out via the APA site.

3) I need 10 matches to qualify to play in the playoffs - do split point matches count as me playing? I'm going to be pissed if I got screwed out of the playoffs because of this.

Thanks for looking -

b
Click to expand...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3-eavMSBnk
 
If you're new, you should ask your local league operator or his/her representative for clarification if you can't get the answers from your team captain, or co-captain. When I was co-captain, I used to have the league rep number on my speed-dial.

If your team doesn't put you up enough times for you qualify as a team member for the playoff, then you should take the matter up with your team captain, not the APA.

The APA is a franchise, and to an extent each is run like a fiefdom. What one league operator implements in his franchise territory may not be similar to another league operator. ie. Playoffs in my territory leads to the Tri-cup, which leads to the Gold cup (which is the tournament decides which teams is awarded a trip to Las Vegas Nationals).

I'm going to assume you are referring to the 3 point scoring for APA 8-ball or the 20 point scoring for APA 9-ball. The 3 point scoring was implemented a few years back to catch sandbagging, and determine team weekly ranking. Accumulated, this is used to determine teams that make it to the playoffs and teams that don't. A total of 15 points can be score between two teams. On the discretion of your local league operator, additional points can be awarded. i.e. turning in a score sheet that is completely filled out, or on time and not 3 weeks late. Here is more information about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlP-lzFy4eo
 
Nope, not allowed. The captains make up points and innings and decide who won and lost. That being said there are lots of teams that will do that to help eachother with handicaps. Someone is in danger of going up so instead of sitting and waiting for a sandbag match to end you just let them shoot and make up whatever you want. I know this happens in some areas and especially in some in house leagues. There is even a rumor that theres an in house league in maryland where the captains vote each session on who will make tier 1 and 2 playoffs for that session. They say its so "everyone gets a chance to go to vegas." Masters is starting in my area soon which I can't wait for. Actually shooting everyone without anyone holding back will be awesome and great for improving my game.
 
It's cheating. And the guilty teams, once found out, can be penalized all the way up to complete suspension and loss of any higher level tournament eligibility they may have earned. And it's always found out, eventually. Too many people have to be involved and they can't keep their mouths shut forever.
 
WillyCornbread said:
HI all - I'm new to the APA and have played about 7 8-ball matches. There were 2 nights during this session where the matches were cancelled because of not enough players and the teams agreed to 'split the points'.

I don't want to ask my League Operator these questions because I'm not sure if this is officially even allowed so I thought I'd ask here...

1) Is this legal by APA rules?

2) What does this mean exactly, what points are split and how are they split? Do players get wins or losses? Our stats are so far behind that I can't figure it out via the APA site.

3) I need 10 matches to qualify to play in the playoffs - do split point matches count as me playing? I'm going to be pissed if I got screwed out of the playoffs because of this.

Thanks for looking

b
Click to expand...

1. as every one else has stated...its not legal.

2. i have never seen it done in my area in apa but did see this situation happen in bcapl here years ago.

3. you really do need to contact your lo. if you are afraid of repercussions by your captain you need to find a new team. not every one lacks the integrity displayed by the ones you mentioned.

although its pretty rare i have been faced with this situation several times recently.

when this comes up we handle it through either forfeiture or rescheduling


here are a few examples.

fri night scotch doubles double jeapordy. my entire team was in the 9 ball tric cups that night. i contacted the opposing team captain and we agreed to reschedule .

fri night scotch doubles double jeapordy again. my team was in the 8 ball tri cups that night. i did not have a contact number for the opposing captain and forgot to get with the lo. the other team showed up that night and we forfeited all 6 matches. i took it in stride since i did not make prior arrangements.

sun night double jeapordy. i only had 2 players and myself show one night. we forfeited the last 2 8 and 9 ball matches due to the opposing captain refusing to allow any of my players to play twice. nitty move but allowed under apa rules. we will face them again and you know the saying ...paybacks a *****. :D that happened 4 weeks ago and has not hurt my team so far as we are still in 1st place in both 8 and 9 ball.
 
Starting on page 24 of the team manual covers this under the Forfeits and the teams doing it are in violation of the rules and are messing with the division standings.

Nutshell:
1.) Teams must be present within 15 minutes of start time or they forfeit.
2.) The match can start with only 1 player but another player must be available to play at the conclusion of that match or each un-played round is forfeited with the other team getting 2 points for each forfeit in league play. This only applies for each round YOUR team has an opponent to put up for the forfeit. If you dont have anyone then neither teams get any points.
3.) A match can be rescheduled if the captains agree but you have to notify the LO and get approval.
4.) Full weekly dues are still paid.
5.) Forfeits are at the end, so they can't play someone then forfeit the 2nd match and then play another player the 3rd match. They must play all the players before giving forfeits.
6.) In our area, if a team is going to be short it is allowed to play player(s) twice (opponent chooses the player(s) to shoot a 2nd time). I am not sure if this is allowed nationwide, as I did not see anything in the rule book about it but that is how we typically handle it so other players can get their matches.

Note: This basically comes down to sportsmanship. Some captains will be asshats and refuse to reschedule a match and will refuse to allow you to shoot a player twice thus forcing the forfeits. That is allowed in the rules, as it is the rules so if it does happen just suck it up and take it as lesson learned.
 
Thanks for the clarifications folks, much appreciated. To be honest, I probably won't do anything about it. I don't have any other league options near me and I enjoy the matches.

If the other team did a real forfeit that wouldn't count against my matches played, so either way I would not be eligible for the playoffs - no need to blow the whistle on my own team.

b
 
Sorry to hear about the limited league options in your area. Being that you're commuting distance from NYC, you may want to consider the in-house leagues there; Amsterdam, Steinway & Society off the top of my head.

I've run into quite a number of 'hardcore' league players, those who play multiple nights, some from as far out as CT and Poconos PA, play Team 9-ball at Amsterdam in New York City. Even owners of other pool halls (Steinway, and Raxx) used to play league because of the high level of competition.


WillyCornbread said:
Thanks for the clarifications folks, much appreciated. To be honest, I probably won't do anything about it. I don't have any other league options near me and I enjoy the matches.

If the other team did a real forfeit that wouldn't count against my matches played, so either way I would not be eligible for the playoffs - no need to blow the whistle on my own team.

b
Click to expand...
 
WillyCornbread said:
If the other team did a real forfeit that wouldn't count against my matches played, so either way I would not be eligible for the playoffs - no need to blow the whistle on my own team.
b
Click to expand...

I do not believe that is the case. I believe if they mark it as a forfeit win for you, you still get credit for the game. However, I could be confusing this with a rule from another league I play in. Ask the LO about this. Regardless they are cheating all the other teams there and that should be stopped immediately.
 
Skippy27 said:
I do not believe that is the case. I believe if they mark it as a forfeit win for you, you still get credit for the game. However, I could be confusing this with a rule from another league I play in. Ask the LO about this. Regardless they are cheating all the other teams there and that should be stopped immediately.
Click to expand...

You do not get credit for a forfeited game, so far as matches played. A players name needs to be entered in the box to indicate you had an eligible player available to play.

Your team gets the appropriate points.

I hope you find options in the future that don't include having to tolerate this foolishness.
 
WillyCornbread said:
Thanks for the clarifications folks, much appreciated. To be honest, I probably won't do anything about it. I don't have any other league options near me and I enjoy the matches.

If the other team did a real forfeit that wouldn't count against my matches played, so either way I would not be eligible for the playoffs - no need to blow the whistle on my own team.

b
Click to expand...

If you don't, who will? As a league operator, this is one of the most frustrating things to hear. People whine and complain about cheating and sandbagging, but nobody wants to give us a name. If you know about it and don't report it, you are complicit, which makes you just as much a cheater as the others involved.
 
APA Operator said:
If you don't, who will? As a league operator, this is one of the most frustrating things to hear. People whine and complain about cheating and sandbagging, but nobody wants to give us a name. If you know about it and don't report it, you are complicit, which makes you just as much a cheater as the others involved.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing, if he does report this, not only does he earn the reputation of being a rat for what a great deal of the APA population would consider a victimless offense or no offense at all, but he also risks the at the minimum the suspension of at least some of his own team and the other team and at the worst - suspension and removal from the APA for both teams involved. It's almost like nothing good can come of doing the right thing here.

Maybe he's the one that doesn't get suspended but now he's without a team and if I read correctly he's a recent addition to the APA, I imagine that he joined so he could play pool with friends.

People complain about sandbagging all the time and they throw names around without hesitation. Frankly, I believe it's greatly ignored for the most part and written off as people whining. To call a shot a defensive shot is largely subjective, but to name someone manipulating points or teams conspiring to manipulate points can be proven.

Should this be reported? Absolutely, but in weighing the personal cost/benefit of giving this information to those in authority, to do so would be opening up a whole can of worms.

It's hard thing to do to worry about the "Greater Good" in this situation. You have to take care of your self and your friends but you have to maintain your integrity. Maybe it's something you talk over with your captain and let him know that you don't like being put in that position. If you don't like the way he does things then you need to find another team or captain your own. He's the captain for a reason, you have to have his back.
 
Last edited:
I understand what you say Celphanewrap, but that does not change the fact that you don't get to ***** about something and then do nothing to improve the situation. Either shut up and suck it up or do the right thing and put the spotlight on the issue so it can be addressed.

He is new and being exposed to cheating which is the saddest part of all. I would imagine the league would not remove the teams but remove the points and warn the teams that it is not appropriate to do. If they did it again, the captains may be removed/suspended as it is them doing it and then the co-captain or another player can run the team. I can't imagine any LO would remove all the players because of the poor decisions of a couple people.

This violation can be reported anonymously and it should be. He does not need to take this up with his captain or teammates and they would be none the wiser. Worse case, email/call the APA office here in St. Louis with the team number and the date and let them deal with the LO concerning it.
 
Skippy27 said:
I understand what you say Celphanewrap, but that does not change the fact that you don't get to ***** about something and then do nothing to improve the situation. Either shut up and suck it up or do the right thing and put the spotlight on the issue so it can be addressed.

He is new and being exposed to cheating which is the saddest part of all. I would imagine the league would not remove the teams but remove the points and warn the teams that it is not appropriate to do. If they did it again, the captains may be removed/suspended as it is them doing it and then the co-captain or another player can run the team. I can't imagine any LO would remove all the players because of the poor decisions of a couple people.

This violation can be reported anonymously and it should be. He does not need to take this up with his captain or teammates and they would be none the wiser. Worse case, email/call the APA office here in St. Louis with the team number and the date and let them deal with the LO concerning it.
Click to expand...

Which is all well and good, but it won't take long for the parties involved to figure out who said something. There are at most 8 people per team, likely many are pretty tight with one another.

It sucks, for the OP and for the league. Best case scenario is the OP finds another team to play on, one that doesn't tolerate such foolishness. Then get it reported.
 
Skippy27 said:
I understand what you say Celphanewrap, but that does not change the fact that you don't get to ***** about something and then do nothing to improve the situation. Either shut up and suck it up or do the right thing and put the spotlight on the issue so it can be addressed.

He is new and being exposed to cheating which is the saddest part of all. I would imagine the league would not remove the teams but remove the points and warn the teams that it is not appropriate to do. If they did it again, the captains may be removed/suspended as it is them doing it and then the co-captain or another player can run the team. I can't imagine any LO would remove all the players because of the poor decisions of a couple people.

This violation can be reported anonymously and it should be. He does not need to take this up with his captain or teammates and they would be none the wiser. Worse case, email/call the APA office here in St. Louis with the team number and the date and let them deal with the LO concerning it.
Click to expand...

I can't tell you how much I agree with you and the idea that this needs to be addressed, and this is why we (our team, or my captain and myself) have this conversation before it ever becomes an issue. So this won't come up.

Informing the league is all well and good, but now many team things now become adversarial, and now any trust is likely gone.

I know that some you, and you may be right..., some of you are steadfast in your thinking that the only thing to do here is to tell and damn the personal consequences.

Looking at the broader picture and with some thought to any personal consequences, maybe there are several "right things," any one of which can be done that would suffice.

I would advocate for a stern conversation with the team captain and make your feelings known, and perhaps a "hypothetical" conversation with the league rep or Division Manager or whoever the LO has made the go between. Going over the head of your Division Manager and the LO straight to the National Office likely won't achieve any results and would probably put you on their shit list for not following the chain of authority. If you were to have the hypothetical conversation with the "next wrung on the ladder" you could then take that information back to your captain and give him a chance to find a way to correct the situation before someone else makes it an administrative concern.

The other thing to consider is what the reaction from the authority will be: I have met some division reps, LO's, and other people in the "chain of authority" from around the country, and I'm convinced the first question out of their mouth would be, "Did both captains agree on it?" followed up by, "Well, then what's the problem?"

If that were to happen what kind of situation would that pout the OP in? I suspect his time with The APA and on that team would be short lived.

One thing I may have missed if it were mentioned earlier in this thread, when they agreed to split the points did they also conspire on the score sheets and create fictional games and matches and innings and everything else that goes along with filling out the paper work? If so, did those fictional games and matches have a DIRECT effect on anyone's skill level?
 
As an update, I did speak with my team captain yesterday about this and my displeasure with the situation. That is as far as I will take it however.

Also, I'd like to point out that my original post was not a whiny, *****-fest or rant. It was a genuine question about a situation that I don't like but am unfamiliar with. Given my understanding now of what is going on, I wouldn't ***** and moan about it without doing something.

I agree that in an ideal world I would report the violation in the interest of the greater good and not worry about the personal impact. The reality is that it was VERY difficult for me to find a league and team locally to play on.

I'd rather play in a league and on a team than try and make the overall APA a better league at the cost of my own involvement.

The juice isn't worth the squeeze.
 
"..not only does he earn the reputation of being a rat for what a..."

How about he earns a reputation as being honest and going by the rules? I can't believe the way some minds work on this board.

Some of you apparently think if you get caught, then cheating is cheating. But if you don't get caught, then cheating is OK. WRONG - cheating is cheating. Someone is always adversly affected by cheating. Sooner or later all of you guys will be on the receiving end, you'll go to your League Operator or tournament directer for relief. Then you'll scream and whine like little girls if you don't get your way. All because their cheater cheated better than your cheater. It happens every session and/or every tournament.

I love my job. Which is being an APA League Operator since 1980.

Let the flames begin.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top