Jay Helfert resigned as Tourney Director at the US Open

[BmoreMoney]

And just to add, as per Jays statement he just posted Allen was in fact told he was in this year. Yes the ball was dropped as Jay mentioned also but the issue becomes not whether Allen had an expectation to be in the tourney but rather execution of that.

 

[justadub]

Wasn't it clearly discussed on here in regards to this years open as to where exactly the money was coming from / applied to for the past champions countless times?

I do not know. Was it? Kindly explain it then, for context sake.

I remember that for many years, all past champions were guaranteed a spot in the US Open if they wished to play. As I said when you and I started back and forth, I thought/believed that policy had changed. Which would mean that Mr. Hopkins would NOT have a spot reserved for him, that BB would have to clear space for.

Yet BB changed it, after the tourney had started.

Poor form.

 

[JD_Hogg]

I'll be the first to admit that in the past I have been in mental left field on some of the issues discussed on AZ.

However, I am not seeing the big impropriety in this case.

Allen was mistakenly omitted from the original draw.

They obviously found someone to volunteer their spot for Allen.

Allen was put in the draw and he played. It isn't like they matched him up against a nobody for an easy win for the next round.

They matched him up against someone who is a legitimate threat to win the Open.

Where is the impropriety? I am not trolling, I truly don't see it.

Because some people chose to pick these types of instances to stand up and say "i'm right" --- when technically they are, but in the big picture who gives a fu**

 

[BmoreMoney]

I do not know. Was it? Kindly explain it then, for context sake.

I remember that for many years, all past champions were guaranteed a spot in the US Open if they wished to play. As I said when you and I started back and forth, I thought/believed that policy had changed. Which would mean that Mr. Hopkins would NOT have a spot reserved for him, that BB would have to clear space for.

Yet BB changed it, after the tourney had started.

Poor form.

To the best of my understanding; as per why was discussed on AZB for may months now you are indeed correct that several years ago the entry for past champions had been dropped. However, it was reinstated this year - maybe for 40th anniversary or whatever. I could be wrong but that's what I've taken out of the countless posts on here in regards to this.

 

[JAM]

I said it earlier in the thread -- and I'm not going to go back and list the post number -- that the only three who know what happened is Jay, Allen, and Barry. Everybody's opinion posted on this thread is supposition because most don't know all the facts of what occurred before, during, and after, including me.

Thread drift --> Jay, Keith said to thank you for the limo. Robin shared this scanned photo with me yesterday. The whole gang was going to the premier of "The Color of Money," and Keith said you paid the white limo. Talk about the Disco '80s.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I'm a believer in having systems in place for things. Obviously you can't predict everything, but you can learn from past mistakes.

Systems should be written down, so if anyone questions your decision, you show them the written documents and everything is above board.

I think a few things could be made into a system with documentation that would be part of the rules set of xzy tournament, that if a player or fan wanted to, they would have access to it on the rules site of the tournament.

These are my ideas, but they could easily be changed. The main point is to have them written down in place.

1. Decide if a paid player is a no-show come draw time, whether to replace him.
2. Decide if a paid player is a no-show, come match time whether to replace him.
3. If you decide yes for #1 or #2, then go down the list of alternates that are at the venue. First come first serve. Must have cash money in hand. After alternate is in and paid, refund the original entrant his money at the end of the tournament. (Or, make it policy not to refund him if he did not give prior notice, and use the extra funds in the pot).
4. Sometimes administrative mistakes are made, and too many players are signed up. Make a procedure on how to handle that. Cut them out and refund them, or expand the bracket to 256 to accommodate those extra few players. (or insert another idea).

Again, the main thing here is not which rule to put in place, but to have it written down where anyone can access it if they chose to. Then, there can be no accusations of favoritism, or underhandedness, etc.

 

[sonny_burnett]

Air Barrel Barry drives one more nail in the game of pool coffin.

Why in the name of God would anyone expect anything different after 4 decades?

Enable the alcoholic Prima Donna again next year please. This is priceless.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[BmoreMoney]

Air Barrel Barry drives one more nail in the game of pool coffin.

Why in the name of God would anyone expect anything different after 4 decades?

Enable the alcoholic Prima Donna again next year please. This is priceless.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

What the hell else would we have to bicker about every year the end of October - the World Series?

 

[justadub]

Air Barrel Barry drives one more nail in the game of pool coffin.

Why in the name of God would anyone expect anything different after 4 decades?

Enable the alcoholic Prima Donna again next year please. This is priceless.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

The threads after his speech this year will be must see reading

 

[BmoreMoney]

The threads after his speech this year will be must see reading

Agreed!

Dub, have you changed your stance on entry of past champions for this year?

 

[justadub]

Agreed!

Dub, have you changed your stance on entry of past champions for this year?

I don't really have "a stance", I'm just trying to be fair when I'm discussing my opinions on the matter.

I still maintain that once the brackets are set, and posted, and play has begun....there should be no changes. Regardless of whether he was a past champion. Invites and special stuff like that needs to be handled by the promoters BEFORE the tournament starts. Not after.

John Schmidt posted on Facebook last week that he wasn't aware that he was invited until last week (which was to late for him to arrange to play) so perhaps they are all still invited. That does illustrate that this issue isn't handled properly at some level, in the promoters end of things.

 

[alstl]

I have a feeling there is a "history" which precedes this tournament. I don't think we have heard the whole story.

 

[BmoreMoney]

That does illustrate that this issue isn't handled properly at some level, in the promoters end of things.

I agree with this 100%.

 

[Ken_4fun]

Now comes the truth. Thanks for sharing this with the forum. I agree, 100 percent, that Allen Sr. is an innocent bystander in this debacle. Further, he is very deserving of respect in the pool world for his accomplishments not only on the table, but behind the scenes. Allen Hopkins Sr. is, indeed, one of the good guys in pool, always has been and always will.

Well ....

I hadn't planned on posting again on this thread because I already made my position quite clear that putting your father into the event after the fact was wrong in every way, shape and form. Your dad called me last night upset at this thread, telling me that he and Barry had no "deal" regarding the plaque that he had brought to award Barry. He said that Barry had told him that he was in the tournament and he just assumed that to be the case. We all know what happens when you "assume" something and don't bother to check the facts, especially since a players list had been posted online in multiple locations for months, none of them having the name Allen Hopkins on it.

Barry had a responsibility to inform Pat Fleming to put Allen's name in the field and failed to do so. Allen had a responsibility to check and make sure that happened and failed to do so. That much is a certainty. I also called your father early Sunday morning and told him that he could not play in the event since we had not drawn for him and his name was never on the players list. He agreed that it was a mistake and I thought he understood my position. I had made it very clear, telling him that he would have to wait until next year to play. He then said okay and that he didn't care if he played or not.

By agreeing to play anyway after Barry pulled his shenanigans, that makes your father complicit in this. He never called me to ask me if I was okay with what was going on. In fact not one time did I see your father and now I wonder if he was purposely avoiding me. He could have refused to play and he chose not to, circumventing me as the tournament director. Last night your father said that since I worked for Barry I had to do what he said, whether I agreed or not. I told Allen that he was incorrect. That in my capacity as the TD, it was my call and not Barry's. That is the job he hired me to do.

I could say more about the very uncomfortable phone call I had with your dad but you can ask him what he also said to me. Let's just say it was unpleasant and leave it at that.

No, NOW COMES THE TRUTH.....

Ken

 

[couldnthinkof01]

So where does the wpa stand in this sham. Do they back barryfest and his 3 ring circus?

Is this the standard they want as a governing body?

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

It is likely that none of us on here have all the facts.

What is known, however, is that Jay consistently conducts his biz in a highly above-board manner.

Barry, on the other hand, has a long and unflattering history of doing bad biz. Bigtime!

So, when Jay says something happened that to him was so egregious it caused him to resign as TD and get out of town on the very next plane, it's reasonable to believe that Barry was once again, dead wrong.

If Jay, Dub, Tate, pt, Jeffrey Dahmler and I were all renting a house together and a half-eaten human turned up in the fridge, who would you figure for the wrongdoing? :yikes:

If you answered 'the man with the track record for doing very bad things'; then you're going to the lightning round. :thumbup:

best,
brian kc <------ hopes Jay's TD pay was part of the escrowed funds because I still think under these crappy circumstances he should get his pay.

 

[BmoreMoney]

I'm a believer in having systems in place for things. Obviously you can't predict everything, but you can learn from past mistakes.

Systems should be written down, so if anyone questions your decision, you show them the written documents and everything is above board.

I think a few things could be made into a system with documentation that would be part of the rules set of xzy tournament, that if a player or fan wanted to, they would have access to it on the rules site of the tournament.

These are my ideas, but they could easily be changed. The main point is to have them written down in place.

1. Decide if a paid player is a no-show come draw time, whether to replace him.
2. Decide if a paid player is a no-show, come match time whether to replace him.
3. If you decide yes for #1 or #2, then go down the list of alternates that are at the venue. First come first serve. Must have cash money in hand. After alternate is in and paid, refund the original entrant his money at the end of the tournament. (Or, make it policy not to refund him if he did not give prior notice, and use the extra funds in the pot).
4. Sometimes administrative mistakes are made, and too many players are signed up. Make a procedure on how to handle that. Cut them out and refund them, or expand the bracket to 256 to accommodate those extra few players. (or insert another idea).

Again, the main thing here is not which rule to put in place, but to have it written down where anyone can access it if they chose to. Then, there can be no accusations of favoritism, or underhandedness, etc.

With the assumption that you #'s 1 and two is in fact not written down anywhere what is the precedent at the US OPEN as well as all other prominent tournaments?

 

[NYC cue dude]

The WPA will not like this,fwiw.

Furthermore, I had a long conversation with Jay last night. He might not like me sharing this, but since he didn't include this in his most recent post, this should be "out there". In his 30 years, Jay has never changed a tournament bracket after it was released. It's unethical, on every level.

Proper protocol is that before the draw, a substitution can be made. In this case, the spot should e gone to a wait lister. If a player is unable to participate AFTER the draw, the opponent MUST receive a forfeit.

In my very first post, I explored the very real possibility that Allen arrived with the complete understanding that he was IN the event, as per what he was told previously by Barry. I don't for a second not believe that. What ever miscommunication occurred or errors made by Barry, CAN NOT BE RECTIFIED AFTER THE DRAW HAS BEEN MADE PUBLIC. This isn't rocket science, folks. Jay did the only thing that could be done. It was incumbent upon Allen to withdraw his interest once he was told the draw had already been done. He did not. Not cool.

Jay walks away with both his reputation and dignity intact No one, especially a 70 year old ambassador for our game should ever be subjected to the profane threats from an out of control drunkard. Still, it was worse than that.

Barry should be ashamed of himself. Unfortunately, he has no capacity for that. Anyone who has followed this event for the past few decades already knows this. Stay tuned for his selfgrandizing speech proceeding the finals for confirmation.

 

[Poolshootindon]

"Hope springs eternal"

This thread should be titled, "Why on earth did Jay want to subject himself to the Barry circus to begin with" --- that's what has my head scratching. WHO KNOWS if the players will get paid still... escrow or not. You just never know with this. For all you know Lamar Odom and Chloe will walk in, necking in the back with the tv cameras in follow, taping Lamar pulling a knot out and asking the room to play. I mean, you just never know with this shit show what will happen.

If this is the worst drama of this year's open, we're all very, very lucky.

Not trying to put words in Jay's mouth, just maybe with all the funds secured for the players it was a move forward that gave Jay hope that things were going to get better.

But Barry being Barry was the last straw.

Allen should not have accepted Barry's manipulation of the brackets and declined to play. But it appears that Allen's ego couldn't say no.

Allen is as much to blame for this fiasco as Barry. Maybe even more.

Don

 

[Baby Huey]

I don't pretend to know the number of players on the "waiting list" but another remedy is to enter all the waiting list players and form "mini brackets" randomly throughout the initial draw. Mark Griffin alluded to the 256 board at the Swannee and the mini brackets are a different version of the extended board. I do this all the time at my room when we go over 16 or 32 or 64 players for a tournament. I don't understand why either Jay or Barry or someone else did not propose this remedy. Look it's managements prerogative to override decisions and it's Jays right to disagree and move on if he felt strongly about integrity issues with his association with the event. The thing Jay brought to the event was his hammering away at Barry to do the right thing these many years and I hate to see him leave the event in this manner. He was one of the few persons that held persuasion powers over Barry. Whether you like Barry or not, he has tried to keep the event alive and if the money is indeed in escrow then we need this event to stay alive so the players and us fans can continue to enjoy our sport.