Keep grasping at straws, boys.
Has the quality difference between "custom" and "production" become negligible?
- Thread starter Shawn Armstrong
- Start date
Keep grasping at straws, boys.
Tim Scruggs had Bob Frey and Bill McDaniel helping him to make cues during his career. Are those cues that Bob and Bill worked on still considered a TS Custom Cue?
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
Asking the exact same question a different way won't change my answer. Yes, it is a TS custom cue, but Mr. Scruggs did not make it. Is this that difficult for you?
You are the one who said that a guy who personally builds six cues per year is less experienced than the guy who 'builds' 1000 cues per year...when in actuality the 'guy' who 'builds' those cues is only an owner and a manager...maybe QC.
Take Meucci...for years Bob didn't even own the company, but that is the stupid argument that you are making--that bob actually made every meucci.
At Joss, Steve and Dan Janes make every Joss. I've been in the "plant". It isn't nearly the operation you think it is. They have a process that allows them to make a lot of cues on a yearly basis. But a Janes does touch every Joss cue.
I didn't mention Bob Meucci, actually. I mentioned the guys that have always owned and operated their cuemaking companies. Jim McDermott, up until his passing, was still actively involved in the making and designing of his cues.
And every guy on that list didn't start "Cue Inc" on his first cue. They all started in a basement. Or a garage. And built the cue from start to finish. Demand increased. They grew. And expanded. They went through every single stage of the process that George or Gus or Jerry went through. To think that once they got over a certain volume, that the quality of their work somehow drops off is a little short sighted.
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
The quality may drop off once they have to have someone else help them because it isn't completely in their control. To think otherwise is ridiculous.
I don't know how many cues the Janes make, but I still doubt that they make 1000/year alone.
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Not sure if this fits the definition of disparaging but I'll take it as such saying words such as "arrogant", "twat" just to name a few.. Or as Larry eluded, maybe it is just jealousy...
I would like to inject a new category of cues: Small batch production.
In this category I would put brands like: Mezz, Exceed, Schon, Segen, Jacoby (who also do one off custom cues) there might be more brands that would fit in this category.
Knowing how hard it is to make a good cue I would say that the truly custom cues are more about individual expression and being able to do things a production company can`t do.
The process of building a cue is much longer than most people think, and the small batch companies have an advantage over most custom builders in that respect, they can purchase bigger batches of wood and other things needed and ususally they have better finances to think long term.
Some cuemakers have the luxury of doing this, as they have long waiting lists and steady demands. But generating a "wood pipeline" where you have woods in different stages of turning and seasoning takes a while and the initial cost is quite high.
Having a top quality laquering booth and eqipent is also quite expensive and many small time cuemakers settle for epoxy or CA finishes or simple laquering equipment.
In this category I would put brands like: Mezz, Exceed, Schon, Segen, Jacoby (who also do one off custom cues) there might be more brands that would fit in this category.
Knowing how hard it is to make a good cue I would say that the truly custom cues are more about individual expression and being able to do things a production company can`t do.
The process of building a cue is much longer than most people think, and the small batch companies have an advantage over most custom builders in that respect, they can purchase bigger batches of wood and other things needed and ususally they have better finances to think long term.
Some cuemakers have the luxury of doing this, as they have long waiting lists and steady demands. But generating a "wood pipeline" where you have woods in different stages of turning and seasoning takes a while and the initial cost is quite high.
Having a top quality laquering booth and eqipent is also quite expensive and many small time cuemakers settle for epoxy or CA finishes or simple laquering equipment.
Priceless. You think I actually made cues because I wanted to become a cuemaker. That's so cute
I made a few cues as a challenge to myself to see what it was like.
Unlike you, who seems to have built up an online identity, and bets his mortgage....on the fickle needs of the cue buying public. I work in an industry that guarantees my paycheck, and I can pay for a house, and put my kids through school. I'll gladly take the recognition I receive in the form of weekly cheques, benefits and commissions instead of being praised like Kevin Varney. Eddie Wheat is internationally known in the cuemaking world. Seems like the "good and honourable" cuemakers are the exception, not the norm.
So, I'm ok where I'm at, thanks. I'll leave the revolutionizing of the custom cue market to you. One question - between your 100 posts per day, when do you actually make a cue? Just wondering.
Please stop making this thread about you man.
I've been reading this whole thing, and it's exhausting frankly. What Larry Vigus said initially is correct in my opinion, and answers your question. With the availability of cue-specific lathes, the average repairman or tinkerer can and has seemed to assume the mantle of "cuemaker". Thus, and influx of amateur "custom" cues diluting the market somewhat. We have however, seen a few younger CM's rise up great work (Treadway, Cohen, etc) and we have also seen extraordinary quality come from the production cues (OB, Predator, and others).
To stick to your original questions, I would say that yes, the gap has closed much over the years. That's a good sign.
Several people have tried to engage in a dialogue here and it seems that you're content to believe you're under "attack" and you retaliate with ad hominem statements. So my question to you is... do you actually want to have this discussion, or do you want to see this thread close like the Ivory thread?
By the way, I'm not trying to put you down here, I actually agree with you on the general sentiment of what you have posted. However, if I was to provide a reason why people still love to buy customs, it's that they like to own rare or unique things. Production don't provide this as much as cues from a good small shop custom maker. I don't see the harm in that.
Cheers, Ian
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Some have duplicated the sw taper.
As for what cues pros choose on their own? I would say it is likely across the board.
I guess Bill would probably be better suited to answer that question.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
lines blur but high volume production can't match custom for the same cost per unit
High volume production can't match custom built at it's best. Perhaps it can but at that point you would be looking at ten or fifteen thousand dollar production cues.
Here is an example of high dollar production: When I got into photography I bought Canon gear. They are or were at the time far and away the biggest camera company in the world in terms of worth and cash flow. They have the superclean rooms and all of these things. They spend as much on R&D as probably the rest of the still camera industry combined.
I bought a Canon DSLR and about a dozen lenses, tele-converters, macro tubes and such. This was when digital first started making more demands on lenses than film in the 35mm class and I wasn't happy with my results with this gear. Talking back and forth Canon admitted the issue was tolerance stack, something I was very familiar with from my time in R&D and other work. Quite simply, every piece of equipment from camera to front of lens could be within tolerances but the end result is all of these tolerances when combined resulted in an unacceptable photograph.
Since all of my gear was under one year old I shipped it back to Canon and they adjusted everything to work together on their dime. If I bought another Canon camera the other equipment might have to be sent to Canon to be adjusted to that camera, then it might no longer deliver the quality of image I demanded with the first camera!
I doubt very seriously that any production cue maker has the investment in their cue division Canon has in their still camera division. They are faced with the same issue though, you stack component on top of component on top of component and each component has to fit every other component.
If they make hundreds of cues a day, every component has to fit every one of those cues on a high speed production line. Therefore every component has to have some slop in the fit. One component might be 1.000" to 1.007", the component it fits to might be .998" to .990" on and on down the line. Getting a cue with all of these tolerances on the tight end of the scale is less likely than winning the lotto.
When a quality custom builder builds a cue he fits two components together, then he fits the next component to those, and so on. Each piece can have little or no tolerance when each is custom fit.
I repaired enough cues to have a look inside many of the lower end production cues and some of the sorta custom cues. You can order them to your specifications but they are sold in high volume. To put it gently, corners were cut! Lots of air gaps in the cues. Inserts screwed into holes that weren't threaded; the insert threads barely scored the wood and glue was supposed to do the rest. The glue failed since it didn't penetrate the wood at all, that is how I discovered this high speed building technique.
In theory a factory could build a cue to match a master cue builder. Their only two options would be to train their people to custom fit as well as a master cue builder at which point they become low volume custom cues or to invest in lots of very high end test equipment. What would a cue cost built with this kind of equipment? Years ago I needed two bearings about the size of those in a bicycle for a piece of machinery I designed. Just to know I priced custom bearings. Back in the nineties the wait time was six months and the price was $125,000 . . . each! I decided I would redesign the units to use existing bearings since my target price was under $800 per unit, definitely didn't want to go over a thousand and the demand for my units wouldn't be too high at a quarter million plus each!
At a glance, cues and cue shafts seem very similar for the most part. I developed a parabolic curve to my cue shafts. It wouldn't seem that wood would be so consistent that a few thousandths of an inch change in diameter of a shaft for a few inches would make a noticeable difference. I discovered it would make a lot of difference! It took several months and lots of snapped blanks to get a taper I liked the hit of. Once I had my taper to suit me my taper bar with that profile was worth it's weight in gold to me.
I was helping my brother lay out his new home and workshop on his land recently. One inch square hard maple shaft blanks make outstanding survey stakes. I lost my river of wood that was all five to eight years old in a flood. I could have started over again but I was two years away from even being able to make someone a replacement shaft. I thought about it and decided I was done. Regardless of what a supplier tells me, wood spent two years under my control before considering using it. I could turn away the warp in the blanks I used for survey stakes, the issues in the wood would still be there. The average factory wouldn't care based on the factories I have experience with, the quality custom builder would care as much as I do.
Speaking of shafts, some might remember some pictures right here on AZB a few years back where someone had sectioned some of the fancy spliced shafts that are made high production, What was shown was that the splices wandered very much. UGLY!
A serious custom builder cares a great deal about everything that leaves his or a few hers shop. They feel like their reputation is on every build and every repair. When a dozen or dozens of people are involved in building a product there is no way that the entire group has that level of commitment. No doubt some do, some don't.
Hand built can match or surpass any volume operation. As my experience with Canon clearly illustrates, a volume operation can't match the best hand built. They had to give all of my gear to a master technician to tune it by hand and by eye.
A player can learn to play with almost anything. They can almost certainly play better with a cue that really suits their style of play and feels right to them. Years ago I wanted a hinged cue and I could get a new moochie cheap. It took six months before I could play as well with that cue as almost any cue off the wall. People thought it was funny when I would throw the custom, highly regarded in the early eighties, in the corner and grab something off the wall in the middle of a match! Ten years playing off the wall and that was what felt right to me. The early custom builders were just trying to match the play of a good one piece cue with something that didn't need a snake's coffin to tote.
Hu
PS: Joey in California dropped a bit of gold about splicing in this thread.
High volume production can't match custom built at it's best. Perhaps it can but at that point you would be looking at ten or fifteen thousand dollar production cues.
Here is an example of high dollar production: When I got into photography I bought Canon gear. They are or were at the time far and away the biggest camera company in the world in terms of worth and cash flow. They have the superclean rooms and all of these things. They spend as much on R&D as probably the rest of the still camera industry combined.
I bought a Canon DSLR and about a dozen lenses, tele-converters, macro tubes and such. This was when digital first started making more demands on lenses than film in the 35mm class and I wasn't happy with my results with this gear. Talking back and forth Canon admitted the issue was tolerance stack, something I was very familiar with from my time in R&D and other work. Quite simply, every piece of equipment from camera to front of lens could be within tolerances but the end result is all of these tolerances when combined resulted in an unacceptable photograph.
Since all of my gear was under one year old I shipped it back to Canon and they adjusted everything to work together on their dime. If I bought another Canon camera the other equipment might have to be sent to Canon to be adjusted to that camera, then it might no longer deliver the quality of image I demanded with the first camera!
I doubt very seriously that any production cue maker has the investment in their cue division Canon has in their still camera division. They are faced with the same issue though, you stack component on top of component on top of component and each component has to fit every other component.
If they make hundreds of cues a day, every component has to fit every one of those cues on a high speed production line. Therefore every component has to have some slop in the fit. One component might be 1.000" to 1.007", the component it fits to might be .998" to .990" on and on down the line. Getting a cue with all of these tolerances on the tight end of the scale is less likely than winning the lotto.
When a quality custom builder builds a cue he fits two components together, then he fits the next component to those, and so on. Each piece can have little or no tolerance when each is custom fit.
I repaired enough cues to have a look inside many of the lower end production cues and some of the sorta custom cues. You can order them to your specifications but they are sold in high volume. To put it gently, corners were cut! Lots of air gaps in the cues. Inserts screwed into holes that weren't threaded; the insert threads barely scored the wood and glue was supposed to do the rest. The glue failed since it didn't penetrate the wood at all, that is how I discovered this high speed building technique.
In theory a factory could build a cue to match a master cue builder. Their only two options would be to train their people to custom fit as well as a master cue builder at which point they become low volume custom cues or to invest in lots of very high end test equipment. What would a cue cost built with this kind of equipment? Years ago I needed two bearings about the size of those in a bicycle for a piece of machinery I designed. Just to know I priced custom bearings. Back in the nineties the wait time was six months and the price was $125,000 . . . each! I decided I would redesign the units to use existing bearings since my target price was under $800 per unit, definitely didn't want to go over a thousand and the demand for my units wouldn't be too high at a quarter million plus each!
At a glance, cues and cue shafts seem very similar for the most part. I developed a parabolic curve to my cue shafts. It wouldn't seem that wood would be so consistent that a few thousandths of an inch change in diameter of a shaft for a few inches would make a noticeable difference. I discovered it would make a lot of difference! It took several months and lots of snapped blanks to get a taper I liked the hit of. Once I had my taper to suit me my taper bar with that profile was worth it's weight in gold to me.
I was helping my brother lay out his new home and workshop on his land recently. One inch square hard maple shaft blanks make outstanding survey stakes. I lost my river of wood that was all five to eight years old in a flood. I could have started over again but I was two years away from even being able to make someone a replacement shaft. I thought about it and decided I was done. Regardless of what a supplier tells me, wood spent two years under my control before considering using it. I could turn away the warp in the blanks I used for survey stakes, the issues in the wood would still be there. The average factory wouldn't care based on the factories I have experience with, the quality custom builder would care as much as I do.
Speaking of shafts, some might remember some pictures right here on AZB a few years back where someone had sectioned some of the fancy spliced shafts that are made high production, What was shown was that the splices wandered very much. UGLY!
A serious custom builder cares a great deal about everything that leaves his or a few hers shop. They feel like their reputation is on every build and every repair. When a dozen or dozens of people are involved in building a product there is no way that the entire group has that level of commitment. No doubt some do, some don't.
Hand built can match or surpass any volume operation. As my experience with Canon clearly illustrates, a volume operation can't match the best hand built. They had to give all of my gear to a master technician to tune it by hand and by eye.
A player can learn to play with almost anything. They can almost certainly play better with a cue that really suits their style of play and feels right to them. Years ago I wanted a hinged cue and I could get a new moochie cheap. It took six months before I could play as well with that cue as almost any cue off the wall. People thought it was funny when I would throw the custom, highly regarded in the early eighties, in the corner and grab something off the wall in the middle of a match! Ten years playing off the wall and that was what felt right to me. The early custom builders were just trying to match the play of a good one piece cue with something that didn't need a snake's coffin to tote.
Hu
PS: Joey in California dropped a bit of gold about splicing in this thread.
What production cue has the SW taper ?
The pros are just like the rest of us. We like expensive, unique , special and rare things . You know like fancy cases, fancy knives, pens, watches , clothes , etc.
Most of them would choose a special cue made for them by a well known maker .
The Taiwanese players favor SW. Some used to own Gina ( Pao and Jennifer Chen come to mind ).
Ernie Gutierrez, Gina Cues, has a factory. By that I mean he has purpose built machines for each step. As he explains in the TAR interview this is so he doesn't have to spend time switching the tooling and calibrating the machines.
If you go to the Kao Kao factory you will find purpose built machines that create parts with the same tolerances every time. They can't afford to have it be otherwise.
This doesn't mean that cues made by Kao Kao are anywhere close to Gina cues in quality. But they are now very very consistent and of a much higher quality now than they were 15 years ago.
As for building a custom cue, Kao Kao can within a few weeks build a cue with just about any design you can put on paper. I have seen it happen personally.
I was involved with the design of the Fury Evolution series.
http://fury-cues.com/evolution-series-pool-cues/
Ask yourself, if this cue was made by any custom cue maker what would it cost you?
If either of these cues had an "elite" name on them they would be praised. But because they are made by a "production" company they are not really thought of as anything special.
The two that I have are seven years old and still dead straight. They fulfill every criteria a player could want in a pool cue in my opinion. Well made, well balanced and beautiful.
If you go to the Kao Kao factory you will find purpose built machines that create parts with the same tolerances every time. They can't afford to have it be otherwise.
This doesn't mean that cues made by Kao Kao are anywhere close to Gina cues in quality. But they are now very very consistent and of a much higher quality now than they were 15 years ago.
As for building a custom cue, Kao Kao can within a few weeks build a cue with just about any design you can put on paper. I have seen it happen personally.
I was involved with the design of the Fury Evolution series.
http://fury-cues.com/evolution-series-pool-cues/
Ask yourself, if this cue was made by any custom cue maker what would it cost you?
If either of these cues had an "elite" name on them they would be praised. But because they are made by a "production" company they are not really thought of as anything special.
The two that I have are seven years old and still dead straight. They fulfill every criteria a player could want in a pool cue in my opinion. Well made, well balanced and beautiful.
I can't tell you specific brands. Kao Kao makes cues for hundreds of customers. Taican makes dozens of brands of cues.
I can't say for certain but I'd bet that the taper of these cues below is very close to the SouthWest taper.
http://www.zcues.com/products.php?c1=1&c2=31&page_sel=1&index=45
Good therapy...
My name is Brad and I am a recovering Grammar & Spelling Nazi. This forum has helped me immensely! A year ago I would have been all over many of you. Look at me now!
LOL
To the point of the thread... Yes, the gap has closed a lot. A friend of mine had a Players cue a couple of years ago. It had a very nice fit and finish, and played great. I think he only paid a hundred dollars for it.
Another note: Dan and Steven Janes make 1/1 custom cues at Joss as well as their production line. They may not make every cue start to finish, but they are RESPONSIBLE for the finished product. They have trained all of their employees to make a superior production cue.
My name is Brad and I am a recovering Grammar & Spelling Nazi. This forum has helped me immensely! A year ago I would have been all over many of you. Look at me now!
LOL
To the point of the thread... Yes, the gap has closed a lot. A friend of mine had a Players cue a couple of years ago. It had a very nice fit and finish, and played great. I think he only paid a hundred dollars for it.
Another note: Dan and Steven Janes make 1/1 custom cues at Joss as well as their production line. They may not make every cue start to finish, but they are RESPONSIBLE for the finished product. They have trained all of their employees to make a superior production cue.
Ernie Gutierrez, Gina Cues, has a factory. By that I mean he has purpose built machines for each step. As he explains in the TAR interview this is so he doesn't have to spend time switching the tooling and calibrating the machines.
If you go to the Kao Kao factory you will find purpose built machines that create parts with the same tolerances every time. They can't afford to have it be otherwise.
This doesn't mean that cues made by Kao Kao are anywhere close to Gina cues in quality. But they are now very very consistent and of a much higher quality now than they were 15 years ago.
As for building a custom cue, Kao Kao can within a few weeks build a cue with just about any design you can put on paper. I have seen it happen personally.
I was involved with the design of the Fury Evolution series.
http://fury-cues.com/evolution-series-pool-cues/
Ask yourself, if this cue was made by any custom cue maker what would it cost you?
If either of these cues had an "elite" name on them they would be praised. But because they are made by a "production" company they are not really thought of as anything special.
The two that I have are seven years old and still dead straight. They fulfill every criteria a player could want in a pool cue in my opinion. Well made, well balanced and beautiful.
Ernie has one employee. HIMSELF. He got rid of his assistant . He must be a one-man factory.
As you know, custom cue prices are determined by the market demand . How much would those cost if a custom maker made them ? Depends what his status is in the cue world . Let's just say they should be $1,000 for a maker to make a decent profit from them .
If those cues hit great, good balance and hold up, their value will go up.
I doubt it will though. Parica, Morris and Eberle no longer play with Fury . That doesn't sound good to me .
It's hard to tell if Zeus has curved taper or not. You should notice it right away if you see one in person. I highly doubt it does . The pics make them look like straight taper to me.
You said SOME brands have copied SW's taper . I highly doubt it .
Most cues, in general, are an expense, and not an investment. Their values do not go up, even though they hit great, have good balance, and hold up. I have only ever made money on a couple of custom cues I had made for me. There are some guys choking on SWs right now in the FS section, and on the FB page. It used to be that a SW went up for sale, and was sold in minutes. Not the case anymore. The market dictates the value of a cue, not its construction. I have a Barnhart I'm about to sell. The going prices on here are lower than what I paid for it.
Second, I don't know why anyone would want to copy the SW taper. Did I like it? Sure. The other 9 people out of 10 hated it, at our pool room. A pro taper will be easier on an entry level player, and let's be honest.....a "pro" or high level player isn't buying a Kao Kao or Taican SW "tribute", as they will probably go after the real McCoy. However, for a new player on a budget, who wants a quality cue, it's a good choice for them.
There was a pretty good writeup by Bill Stroud about how state of the art the Taican facility is. Even he has said that they have controls that the best custom cuemaker cannot possibly have. Bill Stroud....one of those "monster cue" guys. If he says they're turning out a great product, I'm inclined to believe him. It wasn't me that wrote it up. Bill did.
Great examples and explanation! Best post in this thread!
15 years ago I would not have even considered having a production as my playing cue. Not because I was a pretty good cue maker but because the quality of production cues was simply not very good.
That all changed when I started consulting in China. I shared with them 40 years of cue building experience and they listened.
I was always a good pool player and I can tell you this. If my playing cue that I built myself were to vanish I would not hesitate to buy a Predator or Lucassi cue.
I would probably change the tip to a Kamui SS and might work on the shaft taper if it needed it but the cue itself would be of the highest quality.
It is true when I was making cues I gave more than 100% on each and every cue I produced but I didn't have the advantage that other sets of impartial eyes give to the production factory that adheres to the ISO 9000 quality control standards.
Bill S.
That all changed when I started consulting in China. I shared with them 40 years of cue building experience and they listened.
I was always a good pool player and I can tell you this. If my playing cue that I built myself were to vanish I would not hesitate to buy a Predator or Lucassi cue.
I would probably change the tip to a Kamui SS and might work on the shaft taper if it needed it but the cue itself would be of the highest quality.
It is true when I was making cues I gave more than 100% on each and every cue I produced but I didn't have the advantage that other sets of impartial eyes give to the production factory that adheres to the ISO 9000 quality control standards.
Bill S.
Bill, have you ever thought about going to the Taican plant and doing a "Stroud series" with Lucasi? It would be neat to see what you could do with those standards, and their equipment, coupled with your imagination.
Just a thought.
Shawn,
I gave up cue making because of my eyesight not because of a lack of fresh ideas. Many of my ideas like vibration damping, low squirt, interchangeability are being incorporated by Taican already.
If I were still involved I would go even further. 3D printing, a real research department, space age materials and an emphasis on fresh designs.
I have had my time however. Now it's time for other younger people to step up with their ideas and leave me to spend time doing what I do best. Play pool.
Thanks anyway,
Bill S.